People boarding before everyone has alighted

[Mathew S]

I’ve been in Manchester today. Some disruption on the Metrolink this evening saw some very busy trans and platforms.

At every station we called at between Deansgate Castlefield and Victoria saw people barging on before anyone had even got off. At Victoria it was particularly bad which was where I was getting off. I ended up having to be very assertive to get off the tram.

Never seen anything like it, at least in London passengers generally play by the rules.

Passengers on the met don't believe in rules, or that's how it seems. I've taken to standing in the doorway, hands on the rails each side of the doors, and insisting that everyone moves out of the way before I'll get off. REALLY annoys the 'impatient' crowd, but maybe some of them get the point.

 

[SquireBev]

There's a lot of self-righteousness on this thread.

Its right that people should wait for the bulk of people to de-train before getting on,that is etiquette. But if people on the train are dilly-dallying, then people will get on the train before they are off.

Dilly-dallying, or merely being forced to take a long time to get off, because the crowd around the doors is such that people can only alight in single file, and so it slows down the whole process?

If they stood back and let people off, they'd all be off quicker, and so the people on the platform could be on sooner. It's not rocket science.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

What's really annoying are the people who make sure they're going to be first on at a particular door, and they do let people off first before boarding but as soon as they're on they stop dead, blocking the door for everyone else. There's a few of these at Dewsbury throughout the day...

 

[Fred26]

But the train wasn't ready to depart!

The customers on the train hadn't all got off and the customers waiting for them had not got on.

When that had happened, then it would be ready to depart.

The dispatcher cannot see onto the train and does not know who or how many are alighting. If a gap in those alighting appears then the whistle will be blown.

 

[EM2]

Very often, I notice that those waiting to board are engrossed with something, hear the 'door opening' chime, start to move forward and then look up, and are completely surprised that someone has the temerity to be getting off.

 

[sefton]

The dispatcher cannot see onto the train and does not know who or how many are alighting. If a gap in those alighting appears then the whistle will be blown.

The dispatcher was stood outside the carriage where people were getting off so could see the queue of people stood in the aisle moving to the door.

They were also stood next to the half dozen people who were politely waiting to get on.

 

[Fred26]

The dispatcher was stood outside the carriage where people were getting off so could see the queue of people stood in the aisle moving to the door.

They were also stood next to the half dozen people who were politely waiting to get on.

If the dispatcher is stood that close then the whistle would be heard on the train.

 

[Antman]

I travel into London regularly and normal etiquette is to let people off first and on the odd occasion when there is a problem it's usually people taking a discernibly long time to get off or staff being overly enthusiastic with the whistle.

 

[ComUtoR]

Nobody was getting off ineffectively, it is simply everyone in that one carriage gets off at Stevenage.

Which is the insanity of the passenger mentality. Its been discussed in the 700 thread about encouraging a change in passenger behaviours. Crowding can be ameliorated by simply moving down a carriage or two. There are stations where everyone gets on and off at a single set of doors but when you look down a train there is plenty of space and nobody boarding or alighting. I see this every single day. It's crazy. Passengers would rather board at their door where people get on and off and then complain and barge each other than move down to the next set of doors that is potentially completely free. In the same vein. People refuse to move down a crowded coach and prefer to crowd the vestibule because they want a faster exit. Those behaviors need to change. No doubt the carriage in question at Stevenage is the closest to the exit.

The carriage was emptying normally (as I mentioned before, a large number of people in that particular carriage get off at Stevenage).

How long is the unit ? How many other doors are available on this service and are their alternate doors you can board or alight that would reduce the crowding ?

But the train wasn't ready to depart!

It will not be dispatched until it is ready.

The customers on the train hadn't all got off and the customers waiting for them had not got on.

When that had happened, then it would be ready to depart.

The dwell times are less than a minute. Should the passengers be encouraged to board quickly or should the train wait at the passengers leisure ? This is why I stated earlier that we report delays due to passengers on a regular basis. Passengers are delaying trains themselves and then moaning that trains are late. We are also damned if we do and damned if we don't. The solutions are obvious but they are not a solution the passengers want.

 

[Cantab26]

I’ve been in Manchester today. Some disruption on the Metrolink this evening saw some very busy trans and platforms.

At every station we called at between Deansgate Castlefield and Victoria saw people barging on before anyone had even got off. At Victoria it was particularly bad which was where I was getting off. I ended up having to be very assertive to get off the tram.

Never seen anything like it, at least in London passengers generally play by the rules.

Don't even get me started on some of these morons!

There was a stupid woman one morning earlier this week who tried to force her way on when the doors were only about a foot apart. Needless to say she got jammed: couldn't move forward, couldn't move back.

Unfortunately I was too far away from the door to render assistance or she would have got a few whacks from an umbrella to 'help' free her by pushing her back onto the platform.

Another idiot decided that it would be a good idea to force the doors open instead to let her on. Door mechanism then totally shot and had to be locked out.

The next tram was only one minute behind! One minute!

 

[sefton]

If the dispatcher is stood that close then the whistle would be heard on the train.

The point I was making was in respect of the complaint that people try to board before everyone has got off.

By the dispatcher blowing their whistle whilst people are getting off, is likely to encourage those customers waiting patiently on the platform to try to board whilst people are still getting off. The very thing that was being complained about.

Which is the insanity of the passenger mentality. Its been discussed in the 700 thread about encouraging a change in passenger behaviours. Crowding can be ameliorated by simply moving down a carriage or two. There are stations where everyone gets on and off at a single set of doors but when you look down a train there is plenty of space and nobody boarding or alighting. I see this every single day. It's crazy. Passengers would rather board at their door where people get on and off and then complain and barge each other than move down to the next set of doors that is potentially completely free. In the same vein. People refuse to move down a crowded coach and prefer to crowd the vestibule because they want a faster exit. Those behaviors need to change. No doubt the carriage in question at Stevenage is the closest to the exit.

The particular carriage wasn't overfull, it was just full of customers who wanted to get off at Stevenage.

As you speculate it is closest to the exit, but customer behaviour to be in that carriage is driven by the train company. The train company installs barriers at the exit leading to delays getting through (yes I know they are there for a purpose), so it is obvious their customers will respond. As such they should expect that response and plan their services accordingly.

If you are questioning the customer mentality for behaving in a certain way, you have to question the train company mentality for not recognising and planning for that behaviour.

How long is the unit ? How many other doors are available on this service and are their alternate doors you can board or alight that would reduce the crowding ?

It was an eight car unit, so 15 other doors.

Could customers have got on other doors. Sure, but six people getting on at one set of doors shouldn't be a problem, and if it is the train company should be looking at its processes and procedures.

It will not be dispatched until it is ready.

So why blow a whistle? What is is trying to achieve other than cause behaviour which is seen as undesirable.

The dwell times are less than a minute. Should the passengers be encouraged to board quickly or should the train wait at the passengers leisure ? This is why I stated earlier that we report delays due to passengers on a regular basis. Passengers are delaying trains themselves and then moaning that trains are late. We are also damned if we do and damned if we don't. The solutions are obvious but they are not a solution the passengers want.

As above, the train company designs the customer flow through their premises and should take account of that when setting their timetables.

 

[IanD]

This is one thing that annoys me as well. If I'm at the front of the 'getting on queue', I purposely wait until the very last person has got off, even if they're still in the centre of their coach sorting their bags etc out. Even then you can tell the people behind are getting a bit itchy because they're worried they're not going to get the seat they wanted. The station staff are not asked to get involved because it often causes more issues than it fixes.

Surprised they don't just push past you and get on anyway.

I would. There's only one thing worse than people dawdling when getting off and that's people dawdling when getting on. How do you know someone halfway done the carriage is even heading towards "your" door? They may go the other way or even just be changing seats. Either way, people will probably get on from the other end and nab all the seats if it's busy. Self-appointed "Guardians of the Doorway" (GODs) are extremely irritating.

 

[Bromley boy]

So really the railway is damned either way.

Run late and people moan about it. Try and introduce techniques to reduce this such as blowing whistles, closing doors 30 secs before departure, and people still moan as it will “cause behaviour which is seen as undesirable”. And platform staff are “inciting a crime” by blowing whistles? I’ve never heard such rubbish.

I’d hazard a guess it will be the same people complaining either way! The vast majority of passengers “get it” and board and alight promptly. There’s always a few who delight in labouring the process, just as there’s always a few people in life who will constantly criticise for the sake of it, and will never be satisfied.

 

[yorkie]

A teenage girl was among those trying to force her way on a class 158 which had just terminated from Fishguard during the half term holidays. I shouted an instruction to let people off first. Her mother said 'that's my daughter!', my response was ' so get her told!'

If enough people make it known it is unacceptable, then the culprits may change their ways.

I have often known down trains at Richmond, where lots of people disembark, when the hustle alarm an guard's whistle are sounded before everyone has got off, let alone allowing time for passengers to board.

I had that happen to us at Clapham Junction. Please do report it as it is dangerous and needs to stop. Use the emergency door release if necessary.

I’ve been in Manchester today. Some disruption on the Metrolink this evening saw some very busy trans and platforms.

At every station we called at between Deansgate Castlefield and Victoria saw people barging on before anyone had even got off. At Victoria it was particularly bad which was where I was getting off. I ended up having to be very assertive to get off the tram.

Never seen anything like it, at least in London passengers generally play by the rules.

The Greater Manchester area is one of the worst places for manners, and one of those places I feel less safe in. So I am not at all surprised by this.

 

[sefton]

So really the railway is damned either way.

No, it is customers who are damned either way.

Either they board whilst people are getting off, and people here complain. Or they wait politely on the platform for everyone to get off, but the dispatcher disagrees with that stance and blows their whistle to "hustle" them onto the train before everyone has got off.

 

[sefton]

I agree that this is annoying, but people are also concerned that they can board. I have often known down trains at Richmond, where lots of people disembark, when the hustle alarm an guard's whistle are sounded before everyone has got off, let alone allowing time for passengers to board.

I had that happen to us at Clapham Junction. Please do report it as it is dangerous and needs to stop. Use the emergency door release if necessary.

Saw similar recently. The driver at St Neots hadn't allowed time for everyone to get out of the 'St Neots' carriage (the one that lines up with the bottom of the stairs), so the emergency button ended up being pressed.

 

[Ianno87]

I’ve been in Manchester today. Some disruption on the Metrolink this evening saw some very busy trans and platforms.

At every station we called at between Deansgate Castlefield and Victoria saw people barging on before anyone had even got off. At Victoria it was particularly bad which was where I was getting off. I ended up having to be very assertive to get off the tram.

Never seen anything like it, at least in London passengers generally play by the rules.

Agree, don't know why but Metrolink has become something of a free for all over the last 5-10 years as its become much more of a sprawling 'network', particularly with the off peak shopping crowd. Everyone seems mildly obsessed with just having to sit down to go all the way from Market Street to Crumpsall...

While there aren't many seats in an M5000 it's hardly a chore to stand up in the oodles of space available on them for most able-bodied people. It's may defacto way of travelling on it.

On the plus side, at locations like Piccadilly (lots more people getting on than off coming inbound) it does load the tram super efficiently.

 

[Dr_Intoxicated]

I am quite surprised by the number of people posting on this thread complaining of alpha male agression but then reporting that they act it quite a confrontational manner themselves and encouraging others to do the same.

mr kettle please meet mrs pot

 

[yorkie]

I am quite surprised by the number of people posting on this thread complaining of alpha male agression but then reporting that they act it quite a confrontational manner themselves and encouraging others to do the same.

mr kettle please meet mrs pot

If someone is being aggressive and breaking the law, then sometimes you need to give them robust instructions. Speak authoritatively and assertively, and with good use of language, and there is a chance they will listen (or at least think twice in future).

I will stand up for people who are being mistreated, where practicable.

 

[Mathew S]

On the plus side, at locations like Piccadilly (lots more people getting on than off coming inbound) it does load the tram super efficiently.

When there are just one or two people alighting the tram, it's usually perfectly possible for people to start getting on at the same time. And, in fact, speeds things up - albeit marginally. Problem is when people try to board when there's blatently 10/15 people waiting to alight. As I mentioned earlier, it's not uncommon to have to either a) push people out of the way, or b) stand and hold your ground, telling people they have to move so you can get off.

 

[Antman]

So really the railway is damned either way.

Run late and people moan about it. Try and introduce techniques to reduce this such as blowing whistles, closing doors 30 secs before departure, and people still moan as it will “cause behaviour which is seen as undesirable”. And platform staff are “inciting a crime” by blowing whistles? I’ve never heard such rubbish.

I’d hazard a guess it will be the same people complaining either way! The vast majority of passengers “get it” and board and alight promptly. There’s always a few who delight in labouring the process, just as there’s always a few people in life who will constantly criticise for the sake of it, and will never be satisfied.

Just as passengers seem to be damned either way, allow people off first and they're delaying the train, try and force their way on as passengers are alighting and they are lambasted for rudeness.

I realise staff are keen to get the train off but blowing whistles when people are still getting off and nobody has had a chance to board is a bit well................over enthusiastic to say the least.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Saw similar recently. The driver at St Neots hadn't allowed time for everyone to get out of the 'St Neots' carriage (the one that lines up with the bottom of the stairs), so the emergency button ended up being pressed.

Do DOO drivers on modern units have a view of the inside of the coaches to see who's queueing to leave? If not that might help if there is room for an additional screen. As it isn't a safety critical matter it could be one screen rotating around groups of 4 coaches or similar.

 

[Bromley boy]

Do DOO drivers on modern units have a view of the inside of the coaches to see who's queueing to leave? If not that might help if there is room for an additional screen. As it isn't a safety critical matter it could be one screen rotating around groups of 4 coaches or similar.

No they don’t, and there certainly wouldn’t be room for additional screens (either incab or external).

Usual procedure is wait a few seconds after the last person who disembarked before closing doors.

 

[sefton]

Usual procedure is wait a few seconds after the last person who disembarked before closing doors.

That didn't happen on that occasion; a constant stream of people getting off and people still waiting patiently on the platform to board when the doors were closed.

 

[Bromley boy]

That didn't happen on that occasion; a constant stream of people getting off and people still waiting patiently on the platform to board when the doors were closed.

To be fair, that definitely shouldn't happen, and if it does then someone has made a mistake/isn't paying attention. As a DOO driver the absolute last thing I want to do is close the doors on someone who wants to get off - if they pull a passcom or egress it means enormous delays and generally a bad day at work! Or, God forbid, they jump off at the last minute, their bagstrap/coat gets caught in a door, I don't spot it on the grainy monitors I have to work with and take power....

On the other hand, I hope you can understand that someone blowing a whistle on a platform is "hustling passengers" to get a move on, to try and minimise delays to that service. That's a very different kettle of fish!

 

[Bletchleyite]

That didn't happen on that occasion; a constant stream of people getting off and people still waiting patiently on the platform to board when the doors were closed.

The only place I know where that is done deliberately (and one day it's going to get someone killed) is Bank LU.

 

[yorksrob]

Dilly-dallying, or merely being forced to take a long time to get off, because the crowd around the doors is such that people can only alight in single file, and so it slows down the whole process?

If they stood back and let people off, they'd all be off quicker, and so the people on the platform could be on sooner. It's not rocket science.

To be fair, with a lot of units up here, people can only really get on or off in single file anyway. People do generally stand back and form a path for the bulk of people to detrain in my experience.

 

[BurtonM]

I’ve been in Manchester today. Some disruption on the Metrolink this evening saw some very busy trans and platforms.

At every station we called at between Deansgate Castlefield and Victoria saw people barging on before anyone had even got off. At Victoria it was particularly bad which was where I was getting off. I ended up having to be very assertive to get off the tram.

Never seen anything like it, at least in London passengers generally play by the rules.

The Greater Manchester area is one of the worst places for manners, and one of those places I feel less safe in. So I am not at all surprised by this.

I'm a Manchester resident and this is very true. My bike does a good job of keeping people back when I'm getting off on my way to work! I've never found Oxford Road to be too bad but 13/14 at Victoria, and the Victoria through platforms are terrible for it.

I've been seeing a lot more broken/OOU doors lately too, of course being the run up to Christmas it's busy as all hell here.

 

[SquireBev]

To be fair, with a lot of units up here, people can only really get on or off in single file anyway.

That's probably a large part of the problem. 153s and 156s are particularly bad for it with their narrow doors.

As for people making a space to let people off, it very rarely happens in my experience on the WOF-BHM trains, but again that's probably due to the trains used. If you're very lucky it'll be a 3-car 170, but it's usually a 2-car 170, or sometimes even an ancient non-corridor 150. Obviously this means there's severe overcrowding and this is why people are in such a hurry to board. (Meanwhile the WOF-BMO trains are 4-cars and rarely above 30% full)

But overcrowding or not, there's no excuse for boarding in such a way that it physically prevents people alighting.

 

[rdeez]

Birmingham New Street is particularly bad for this. I lost my temper once when I politely asked someone, twice, to move out of my way so I could disembark and he completely ignored me - so I just pushed through. Suddenly, he found his voice, and shouted after me "I'll slap you if you push me again!".

All semblance of manners, order and decency seem to be lost at peak times and a 'every person for his/herself' mentality appears.