Pendolino problems: were they inevitable?

[Up_Tilt_390]

In regards to it's technical and operational side, the Pendolino is a great train because of how well it's able to complete up to around 1,300 miles per day, usually without issue as far as I'm aware. But from a passenger perspective, they're not exactly the best received trains, primarily due to luggage space and window size.

It's no secret that I love these trains (look at my username if you can't see it), but I have to acknowledge some of it's issues. But unfortunately, these issues might just be a result of the inevitable compromise to building a tilting train on one of, if not the most restrictive loading gauge in the world.

The need to house the Pendolino tilting technology meant that the carriage floor of the 390 has to placed higher, but because of the restrictive loading gauge we cannot make the roof higher, resulting in a smaller body which in turn results in smaller windows and having to place some things such as the air conditioning on the roof, which might just squeeze the roof down further and result in less luggage space.

On the European mainland this isn't a problem. The Pendolinos there have more room to play with, thus the trains can be slighter taller to house the requirements such as standard window size and luggage racks, and thus more space. Yes, the APT when it was in development seemed to have normal sized windows and luggage space, but that was a different tilting system that operated from the bottom rather than the centre I believe (correct me if I am wrong).

So given that many of you are far more knowledgeable than I am, do you think the problems that the Pendolinos face were an inevitability, or could you have worked around them while still retaining some of the essential requirements? Discuss further below if you can.

 

[pdeaves]

But unfortunately, these issues might just be a result of the inevitable compromise to building a tilting train on one of, if not the most restrictive loading gauge in the world.

Certainly not the most restrictive. Look at the Post Office railway for a start. (Tilting trains on the museum tour would be an exciting innovation!).

 

[class387]

Issues such as the poor window alignment, small windows, dingy and claustrophobic atmosphere and problems with toilets have either nothing to do with the loading gauge or could be fixed with very little effort at design stage.

The 390s were a huge letdown and a poor quality train, especially given how nice some Pendolinos on the continent are.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

Issues such as the poor window alignment, small windows, dingy and claustrophobic atmosphere and problems with toilets have either nothing to do with the loading gauge or could be fixed with very little effort at design stage.

The 390s were a huge letdown and a poor quality train, especially given how nice some Pendolinos on the continent are.

Might you be able to elaborate on some design changes?

 

[Clansman]

Issues such as the poor window alignment, small windows, dingy and claustrophobic atmosphere and problems with toilets have either nothing to do with the loading gauge or could be fixed with very little effort at design stage.

The 390s were a huge letdown and a poor quality train, especially given how nice some Pendolinos on the continent are.

I thought everything to do with the windows was on the grounds of h&s requirements. How that'd be affected if someone were to build tilting rolling stock today would be intriguing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Issues such as the poor window alignment, small windows, dingy and claustrophobic atmosphere and problems with toilets have either nothing to do with the loading gauge or could be fixed with very little effort at design stage.

The 390s were a huge letdown and a poor quality train, especially given how nice some Pendolinos on the continent are.

I disagree - they're garbage there, too. In particular the "New Pendolino" is inexcusably cramped (legroom, narrow seats, small windows) for a UIC gauge train.

The UK one is just the European one scaled down hence the slightly smaller windows.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I thought everything to do with the windows was on the grounds of h&s requirements. How that'd be affected if someone were to build tilting rolling stock today would be intriguing.

Like, say, Voyagers, which for their faults have the biggest (vertically) windows on the network? (Biggest horizontally goes to the Class 700).

Pendolinos have small windows because the Pendolino design has small windows, that's all. Other UK high speed stock does not have small windows.

 

[class387]

Bigger windows (as demonstrated on the Voyagers from the same time, so possible), brighter lighting and more of an effort to align seats with windows. Lower backed seats would help too.

 

[class387]

I disagree - they're garbage there, too. In particular the "New Pendolino" is inexcusably cramped (legroom, narrow seats, small windows) for a UIC gauge train.

The UK one is just the European one scaled down hence the slightly smaller windows.

Miles better than the UK ones though. The Cisalpino ones, despite all their other faults, were actually quite comfortable.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

Bigger windows (as demonstrated on the Voyagers from the same time, so possible), brighter lighting and more of an effort to align seats with windows. Lower backed seats would help too.

Pretty sure the Voyagers have a different tilting system and do it less than the Pendolinos. The kind of tilt matters in this case. Lighting I can somewhat agree with given how yellow it looks in some pictures and videos. Never usually been bothered by this myself in person, but I see why some might. Windows? Not sure why they're so badly aligned so I'll give you that one. Thanks for elaborating at least, shows that you can have a good discussion

 

[Clansman]

Like, say, Voyagers, which for their faults have the biggest (vertically) windows on the network? (Biggest horizontally goes to the Class 700).

Pendolinos have small windows because the Pendolino design has small windows, that's all. Other UK high speed stock does not have small windows.

Indeed the Voyagers have larger windows, but I was reffering to Alstom's take on h&s as much as the general requirements. Wonder how the latter would affect any any tilting rolling stock proposals nowadays?

Imagine if it were a Voyager involved in the Grayrigg crash.

 

[class387]

Pretty sure the Voyagers have a different tilting system and do it less than the Pendolinos. The kind of tilt matters in this case. Lighting I can somewhat agree with given how yellow it looks in some pictures and videos. Never usually been bothered by this myself in person, but I see why some might. Windows? Not sure why they're so badly aligned so I'll give you that one. Thanks for elaborating at least, shows that you can have a good discussion

Fair enough on the different tilt systems.

The new IEPs for example also don't have the biggest windows but because of the white lighting and comparatively low backed seats they feel incredibly spacious and airy.

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

The new IEPs for example also don't have the biggest windows but because of the white lighting and comparatively low backed seats they feel incredibly spacious and airy.

Deception by design eh? Not a bad tactic for a train manufacturer I must say.

 

[gazthomas]

Crap stinky toilets, if you can avoid the pun. Dinky windows too

 

[class387]

Deception by design eh? Not a bad tactic for a train manufacturer I must say.

There are so many complaints about bright and sterile lighting, but the 800 shows how it can be used in a good way and the 390 unfortunately shows what it would be like without it.

Could be easily fixed in the next refurbishment though, and given the current trend it probably will be.

 

[markydh]

I don’t know a single non-enthusiast who has a bad word to say about the Pendolinos.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Pretty sure the Voyagers have a different tilting system and do it less than the Pendolinos.

They do, but that has nothing to do with the size of the windows in and of itself. When you look at a Euro-Pendolino the reason for the small windows is obvious - it's the same basic design scaled down.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don’t know a single non-enthusiast who has a bad word to say about the Pendolinos.

I have heard some very non-complimentary talk about them from some non-enthusiasts. The main complaint is the bog smell, though, not the seating or window size/layout.

There also seems in some quarters to be a view that the Voyagers are the "old Virgin trains" - yes, they are about 3 years older, but they are so much rattlier etc that they give the impression they are much older than that to some.

 

[Clansman]

I have heard some very non-complimentary talk about them from some non-enthusiasts. The main complaint is the bog smell, though, not the seating or window size/layout.

The lack of plug sockets at airline seats is another one.

Other than those we've mentioned, the Pendolinos are seen in a very positive light by passengers - and rightly so.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed the Voyagers have larger windows, but I was reffering to Alstom's take on h&s as much as the general requirements. Wonder how the latter would affect any any tilting rolling stock proposals nowadays?

Tilt is neither here nor there to window size, its only significance is passenger comfort at high speed. So if we ignore tilt, the Class 390 and 800 are both 140mph EMUs. The latter is built to higher safety standards as it's about 16 years newer. The latter has bigger windows than the former.

It's just because the Pendolino design is like that. Go ride on a Euro-Pendolino and it'll be really obvious why.

Imagine if it were a Voyager involved in the Grayrigg crash.

Ignoring the possibility of fire from aerosolised diesel, I suspect they would have performed very similarly. The Voyager is a very heavyweight train and was built to very similar crashworthiness requirements. OK, the Pendolino was built for 140mph and the Voyager 125, but then the derailment occurred at 90-something.

 

[HLE]

Am I the only one here who finds them comfortable then?

Personally I think they’re decent, comfortable units and I enjoy the long distance trips on them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don’t think they are terrible (and have some very good points) but the interior would stand improvement. Thinner backed seats would really help.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I don’t think they are terrible (and have some very good points) but the interior would stand improvement. Thinner backed seats would really help.

I think they would have had a proper internal makeover if a full franchise had been contracted in 2012 (whoever won).
Plus some new ones to an updated design.
But the serial 2-year extensions have done nothing but maintain the status quo (which was probably what DfT wanted).
We also have 106 vehicles to the same spec in the second build which are only 5 years old.
I wonder if West Coast Partnership will think it worthwhile to put much new money into them now.
Their focus will be on the new classic-compatible stuff for HS2 (which could also run on the Stephenson route into Euston).
And then the big question - is the WCML going to be a 125mph tilting railway or not, after HS2 comes in?

 

[Clansman]

Am I the only one here who finds them comfortable then?

I find them excellent.

 

[Bletchleyite]

1st is pretty good all things said (though more single airline seats would be nice). Standard is to me decidedly average.

 

[DarloRich]

Issues such as the poor window alignment, small windows, dingy and claustrophobic atmosphere and problems with toilets have either nothing to do with the loading gauge or could be fixed with very little effort at design stage.

Correct. Poor design and specification to blame. No expense was spent building a quality interior for the poor saps paying for the technological & operational improvements. I very much doubt any real work went into capturing stakeholder requirements from passengers. I bet loads went into capturing operational stakeholder requirements.

Might you be able to elaborate on some design changes?

They should be fairly obvious!

BTW i bet a Pendolino doesn't run any further in traffic per day than an VTEC HST does.

I don’t know a single non-enthusiast who has a bad word to say about the Pendolinos.

I don't know a single enthusiast. Not one of my friends has a good word to say about a Pendolino in relation to passenger comfort.

Am I the only one here who finds them comfortable then?

Personally I think they’re decent, comfortable units and I enjoy the long distance trips on them.

I don't. i think they are uncomfortable after about 2 hours. The seats are thin, narrow and cheap. I fear many here never had the chance to travel on a proper train and assume the voyager or pendolino offers the premier customer journey experience possible. Those of us a bit older know different.

 

[class387]

I don’t know a single non-enthusiast who has a bad word to say about the Pendolinos.

I know many. In fact it is probably the train that I hear most complaints about from non-enthusiasts. Most of these are in relation to them being unable to get used to the tilt and consequently feeling sick and the toilets.

 

[boxy321]

I know many. In fact it is probably the train that I hear most complaints about from non-enthusiasts. Most of these are in relation to them being unable to get used to the tilt and consequently feeling sick and the toilets.

On a recent day trip to London my friend was hanging on to her seat for dear life as we hit full speed (god knows what it would be like if they could do 140mph!). It was hilarious.

I use these things every day and think they are great.

 

[gsnedders]

BTW i bet a Pendolino doesn't run any further in traffic per day than an VTEC HST does.

I believe VW119 is still the longest diagram in the UK, at almost 1400 miles. VTEC has a few over 1000, but I don't think anything comparable?

 

[QueensCurve]

In regards to it's technical and operational side, the Pendolino is a great train because of how well it's able to complete up to around 1,300 miles per day, usually without issue as far as I'm aware. But from a passenger perspective, they're not exactly the best received trains, primarily due to luggage space and window size.

It's no secret that I love these trains (look at my username if you can't see it), but I have to acknowledge some of it's issues. But unfortunately, these issues might just be a result of the inevitable compromise to building a tilting train on one of, if not the most restrictive loading gauge in the world.

The need to house the Pendolino tilting technology meant that the carriage floor of the 390 has to placed higher, but because of the restrictive loading gauge we cannot make the roof higher, resulting in a smaller body which in turn results in smaller windows and having to place some things such as the air conditioning on the roof, which might just squeeze the roof down further and result in less luggage space.

On the European mainland this isn't a problem. The Pendolinos there have more room to play with, thus the trains can be slighter taller to house the requirements such as standard window size and luggage racks, and thus more space. Yes, the APT when it was in development seemed to have normal sized windows and luggage space, but that was a different tilting system that operated from the bottom rather than the centre I believe (correct me if I am wrong).

So given that many of you are far more knowledgeable than I am, do you think the problems that the Pendolinos face were an inevitability, or could you have worked around them while still retaining some of the essential requirements? Discuss further below if you can.

Someone will correct me if I am wrong, but Pendolino has electric tilt actuation as against hydraulic in the APT and the "Super" Voyagers.

Tilt inevitably compromises the structure guage and doe make the sets cramped. That said they are pretty good.

One problem is the poor ride quality particularly in the leading coach. When I first experience this on a journey from Euston to Penrith about 2009 I asked the train crew if the ride quality was bad he said "no, this is normal". That said the feeling was that the suspension was hitting the end stops and perhaps even flange-rail contact.

There is a problem inherent in tilting trains that the tilt actuation lags slightly behind the accelerometers sensing the curve. APT dealt with this by putting the sensors for each coach on the coach in front (obviously requiring duplication). This solution is not available in the front coach and that may be the explanation of the ride quality problems at the front of the Pendolino.

I dig the TARDIS panels in the vestibules.