Railway enthusiast, social being, or both?

[yorksrob]

.

There is so much more to life than trains. Go out and find it.

Yes, mainly beer.

 

[DarloRich]

Yes, mainly beer.

Certainly. in moderation. ish.

 

[yorksrob]

Certainly. in moderation. ish.

Definitely "ish"

 

[AlterEgo]

Mention has been made of making conversation with spotters and being rebuffed. Would anyone try making conversation about a random topic with a football fan who they didn't know at a match? I suspect the response might be similar! As Bramling quite rightly pointed out, knowing when to strike up conversation with someone is a social skill itself.

Not a random topic, no, but I have been to games and talked to other spectators. Usually, a sigh and "he really is f***ing c**p isn't he?" or similar. Never had anything other than a sociable response.

I wouldn't do it to spotters, as firstly I'm not one, and secondly there isn't a sense of subjectivity about spotting. It's collecting numbers in most cases. Often, enthusiasts will film and won't appreciate chatting in their video.

 

[WelshBluebird]

It really depends on the situation, but this could of course have nothing to do with the spotters being rude and everything to do with the memoir writer being rude. There are certain situations where it is pretty damn rude to try to have a conversation with someone when it is obvious they clearly don't want one. Someone wearing headphones is a great example, but someone clearly busy writing in a notepad is another, or someone clearly trying to take a photograph is also another.

 

[bramling]

It really depends on the situation, but this could of course have nothing to do with the spotters being rude and everything to do with the memoir writer being rude. There are certain situations where it is pretty damn rude to try to have a conversation with someone when it is obvious they clearly don't want one. Someone wearing headphones is a great example, but someone clearly busy writing in a notepad is another, or someone clearly trying to take a photograph is also another.

The one which grates me is when someone tries to start a conversation whilst one is in the middle of a mobile phone call. I find it frankly unbelievable that anyone would do this, but I've had it happen quite a few times. Last time this happened I had quite a big go at the person over it.

This happens at work too, and I take no more kindly to it in that setting, especially if the conversation is a safety-critical one or one which may have a direct impact on the immediate performance of the railway.

 

[theblackwatch]

Not a random topic, no, but I have been to games and talked to other spectators. Usually, a sigh and "he really is f***ing c**p isn't he?" or similar. Never had anything other than a sociable response.

In a similar context, if you had a spotting discussion with a spotter, it would probably go down ok - unless you tried starting it when going past a large depot! (This would probably be like trying to start a convo with the person next to you just as an important penalty was about to be taken )

 

[DarloRich]

Not a random topic, no, but I have been to games and talked to other spectators. Usually, a sigh and "he really is f***ing c**p isn't he?" or similar. Never had anything other than a sociable response.

I wouldn't do it to spotters, as firstly I'm not one, and secondly there isn't a sense of subjectivity about spotting. It's collecting numbers in most cases. Often, enthusiasts will film and won't appreciate chatting in their video.

I agree! Football is much more social even if you attend on your own. Usually some kind of exasperated grumping will deliver a sympathetic response and open up a decent chat.

 

[DarloRich]

Definitely "ish"

mind you beer attracts spotters and collectors. I am sure you have seen the rock band t shirt clad notebook holder ticking off beers at a festival usually sporting an impressive paunch and beard. The same rules apply. You will find beer spotters talking in great details about finings and hops and mash tuns.

BTW I don't have a beer rating app on my phone. No not at all. Nope.

 

[theblackwatch]

BTW I don't have a beer rating app on my phone. No not at all. Nope.

I wiil confess I do, but I don't rate the beers on it! I just use it for ticking them off.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I agree! Football is much more social even if you attend on your own. Usually some kind of exasperated grumping will deliver a sympathetic response and open up a decent chat.

Indeed, on the railways that is more likely to happen in amongst the "normal" commuters as Digital Doris tells us our hourly service is 20 minutes late, or the collective groan as a Merseytravel Pacer (Or as the non-enthusiasts call them, "one of those really sh***y ones") wobbles in! That's probably the equivalent of being at the football and the team is announced with a certain Anthony Kay involved.

As for the Aspergers/Autism thing, here's some news for you... you're ALL on the spectrum, that's what a spectrum is! In any case, most of us Aspies tend to be more reserved once we reach adulthood, because here's some more news... neurotypical kids (and indeed teachers) can be sadistic ****ers at times.

 

[yorksrob]

mind you beer attracts spotters and collectors. I am sure you have seen the rock band t shirt clad notebook holder ticking off beers at a festival usually sporting an impressive paunch and beard. The same rules apply. You will find beer spotters talking in great details about finings and hops and mash tuns.

BTW I don't have a beer rating app on my phone. No not at all. Nope.

I have indeed. I'm very much the same with beer as I am with trains. I prefer to stick with the ones I know I like where possible.

 

[PeterY]

Interesting thread. I do like my own company and rarely start off a chat with a total stranger but if someone speaks to me first, then I'm quite happy to have a chat with them about anything. It usually starts with the weather, sometimes the conversation flows, somethings it doesn't.

I don't train spot but like being near railways.

I've always enjoyed meeting Rail Forum members on days out, in the sunny south.

 

[Calthrop]

WelshBluebird writes: "It really depends on the situation, but this could of course have nothing to do with the spotters being rude and everything to do with the memoir writer being rude. There are certain situations where it is pretty damn rude to try to have a conversation with someone when it is obvious they clearly don't want one. Someone wearing headphones is a great example, but someone clearly busy writing in a notepad is another, or someone clearly trying to take a photograph is also another."


My feeling is that on the whole, indeed my memoir-writer was more in the wrong, than his perceivedly uncouth junior brethren in the railway hobby, whom he lambastes. This elderly gent (though he comes across despite everything, as a basically benign chap -- and his book is thoroughly fascinating as long as he sticks to his direct rail experiences) has the trait which an uncle of mine used to describe as "for sure, he thinks he's God's little brother". He spends rather a lot of time trumpeting what a good person, and a positive, upstanding, highly-functional and highly-contributing member of society he is / always has been; with the implication that everyone else ought to be like him. Also, he spent his working life as a schoolmaster: many members of the teaching profession do seem to have a tendency to lecture everyone they come across -- not just their at-work charges -- on how they should conduct their lives. (And to consider that their wise discourse on all things, should be of great interest to all whom they encounter.)

I used to be hyper obsessed with trains and buses. Like, I'd waste my day watching videos of them and nothing else. It was so soul draining, but I kept on doing it.

However, I also had an interest in video gaming, and a mild interest in football (I played for a team for a bit!). However, most ofy life was consumed by my train hobby. That is all I had to present to everyone at school (and I didn't even tell anyone about it), so I appeared as a pretty boring person. That's when I knew that I had to diverse my interests. So throughout this year, I have made more progress to be more interesting. I got social media for the first time, went to the cinema a couple of times, made quite a lot of new friends, talk about lots of stuff (holidays, food, video games and all sorts, and even came up with nicknames for each other, lol). One of them is a Leeds supporter, and we have out daily banter with each other (I'm a soon to be Barnsley supporter, first match next month).

I guess even if I still like trains (as I'm on this forum, lol), I shouldn't let it take over my life. Make yourself have different interests, and you'll always attract many people to you. Some way.

However: if one is in one’s own estimation happy and contented, engaging in a pursuit in a solitary fashion, and harming no-one else by doing so – and not suffering distress from perceivedly coming across to others as a boring person – why should it not be acceptable for one to contentedly carry on thus? In my perception, humans are greatly variable – a fair number will seem, in comparison with the general mean in so far as such exists, cross-grained / oddly “wired” / focused on strange things. IMO it behoves a free and tolerant society, to recognise that this is so; and to acceptingly allow the eccentric to follow their eccentric bents, if by so doing they do no actual damage to others (being less than ideally polite, not qualifying thus as “damage”). Let people gently inform loners / outsiders of the “downsides” of their chosen way, if they feel they must: but strong social pressure to conform and “mix and mingle”, smacks to me of a society with less freedom, than I would feel comfortable with.

On the whole IMO: leave people to choose their own way so long as it’s harmless, and things will mostly work themselves out: those with varying degrees of sociability will tend to find strata of same, with which they are comfortable – there will be some annoyance, frustration, and “rough passages”, but a modicum of goodwill / tolerance / courtesy all round, would seem to be the best way to go (though this can at times be easier to set up as an ideal, than to actually achieve and observe). And -- still short of outright harm -- but DarloRich's mentioned "super-spotters" -- imposing themselves on others, with "nothing to talk about but dull, boring, constant drivel about trains, much of which is actually wrong (and they don't take well to being challenged)" -- yes, these folk would seem to be instances of the worst of both worlds; and especially taxing on people's tolerance, courtesy, etc.

And as posters have observed -- there can be of course, times and circumstances in the railway hobby and others, where one wishes to concentrate undisturbed on something; and others where one may be happy to chat. For most people, one hopes, a certain degree of common sense and consideration should make issues of this kind, possible to navigate.

 

[Bromley boy]

In my experience most enthusiasts (I'm one myself) are perfectly pleasant, as one would expect, many are eccentric, some clearly like to keep themselves to themselves - this is usually very obvious from their discrete behaviour - and perfectly understandable.

Some definitely let the side down - I've witnessed a couple of unpleasant scenes at preserved railways where said enthusiasts have behaved in an extremely antisocial manner. Getting irrationally aggressive with people they perceive as getting in the way of a photo (tough luck if they've paid to be there and are speaking to their mate who happens to be driving the loco ), pushing past others to access droplights, etc. If you're that obsessed with getting the perfect photo angle how can you enjoy the experience of visiting a preserved line?!

I've also noticed this at work. The majority of enthusiasts are respectful and polite, keep themselves to themselves and blend into the background. I've had a couple of jokey exchanges after I've apologised for "photo-bombing" their shots of a passing loco-hauled special with a unit, exchanged smiles and waves with people taking photos/noting numbers.

However I've also seen photographers (superspotters?) standing dangerously close to platform edges, halfway down ramps, arguing with staff and generally behaving as if they are oblivious to the fact there is an operational railway being run around them.

Most annoyingly of all I've been setting up a cab at a London terminal and had someone stand immediately outside the cab and take a flash photograph. I accept they have every right to take photos, and that they're interested in the unit rather than me, but doing this from five feet away when I'm plainly visible in the cab seems extremely rude. It's the kind of behaviour that antagonises staff, gives enthusiasts a bad name and results in the BTP being summoned.

If you want to photograph a cab at close quarters that's fine, but please do so when it's empty or ask the driver for permission first, so that he has an opportunity to duck!

 

[RichmondCommu]

Whilst not the "end of the world", I can certainly see how it might be irritating if someone comes up and starts a conversation in front of a person's nose whilst they're trying to take a photo of something, especially if that photo is what they've set out to do. This could be said to lack just as much social skill and situation judgement as is often levelled at 'trainspotters'.

In all fairness the forum member I was replying to said nothing about taking photos, they just said that they might miss something. So in other words someone might have the audacity to ask them a simple question (perhaps because the hapless passenger thinks the forum member might know a bit about trains) and the forum member goes berserk.

A couple of years a go we enjoyed a family day out to Barrow Hill with loads of steam locos in action. Getting rather too close to one of Staniers finest my Dad and I and my youngest son got some soot on our faces. Once a mum always a mum my wife came to the rescue with endless wet wipes. Having cleaned our happy little faces my wife then noticed two enthusiasts standing next to us with equally sooty faces. The offer (complete with winning smile) of wipes was met with a glare before they stormed off. Freaks is the word that comes to mind here.

At the same event two enthusiasts in their teens turned on their guardian because they were going to miss the Stanier Pacific moving around due to the fact that they had to get their train. The way those two ungrateful teenagers behaved was an absolute disgrace and in all honesty they deserved a telling off. None of that did anything to alter the widely held opinion that rail enthusiasts are a bit weird. Not to mention being badly dressed, not washing their hair (let alone the rest of their bodies) and having nothing to talk about other than trains.

 

[RichmondCommu]

In a similar context, if you had a spotting discussion with a spotter, it would probably go down ok - unless you tried starting it when going past a large depot! (This would probably be like trying to start a convo with the person next to you just as an important penalty was about to be taken )

So are you suggesting that people can't talk and use their eyes at the same time?

 

[theblackwatch]

At the same event two enthusiasts in their teens turned on their guardian because they were going to miss the Stanier Pacific moving around due to the fact that they had to get their train. The way those two ungrateful teenagers behaved was an absolute disgrace and in all honesty they deserved a telling off. None of that did anything to alter the widely held opinion that rail enthusiasts are a bit weird. Not to mention being badly dressed, not washing their hair (let alone the rest of their bodies) and having nothing to talk about other than trains.

Ungrateful and stroppy teenagers are hardly confined to railways!

So are you suggesting that people can't talk and use their eyes at the same time?

Well it's often claimed that blokes can't multi-task! (However, that is totally untrue, because I manage it perfectly - having a day out on the trains and an afternoon nap on the train after a lunchtime drink is quite easy )

 

[Bayum]

Perhaps - but as was pointed out above one doesn't want to appear rude, even to the annoying.

While I do feel sorry for people lacking what are crucial and obvious social skills put bluntly it is not my job to help them find them. I do not feel I am equipped with the skills to do so.

It's not about helping them find them. It's about modelling socially accepted ways of being in a positive way.

Example: Someone speaks to someone, and is ignored. Consequence: The ignored now becomes the ignorer when spoken to by someone else. If you imagine that four or five times a day, then pretty soon it is going to be an issue when they realise that's not how it should be.

 

[Calthrop]

A couple of years a go we enjoyed a family day out to Barrow Hill with loads of steam locos in action. Getting rather too close to one of Staniers finest my Dad and I and my youngest son got some soot on our faces. Once a mum always a mum my wife came to the rescue with endless wet wipes. Having cleaned our happy little faces my wife then noticed two enthusiasts standing next to us with equally sooty faces. The offer (complete with winning smile) of wipes was met with a glare before they stormed off. Freaks is the word that comes to mind here.

I think I recall your mentioning this incident, in a previous thread. I have to admit that -- taking it that these guys were somewhat humour-challenged, as a certain number of railfans are -- I can sympathise with them a little bit. I'm sure your wife's offer was made in jest (including seeing a slight possibility of the enthusiasts -- also in jest -- taking her up on it); but feel that she ought to have been aware of a possibility of the joke misfiring the way it did, and offence being taken.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I think I recall your mentioning this incident, in a previous thread. I have to admit that -- taking it that these guys were somewhat humour-challenged, as a certain number of railfans are -- I can sympathise with them a little bit. I'm sure your wife's offer was made in jest (including seeing a slight possibility of the enthusiasts -- also in jest -- taking her up on it); but feel that she ought to have been aware of a possibility of the joke misfiring the way it did, and offence being taken.

In all fairness my wife's gesture was a simple act of kindness and was certainly not made in jest. It was simply an offer to help them clean their faces, especially since the men's toilets were not much help. At no point did anyone in my family even attempt to make fun of them, especially given that three of us including myself) were in the same filthy state as they were! When I was growing up it was known as doing a good turn.

 

[Calthrop]

In all fairness my wife's gesture was a simple act of kindness and was certainly not made in jest. It was simply an offer to help them clean their faces, especially since the men's toilets were not much help. At no point did anyone in my family even attempt to make fun of them, especially given that three of us including myself) were in the same filthy state as they were! When I was growing up it was known as doing a good turn.

OK, got you. If I'd been in their place, I think I'd have wanted my face to stay sooty as long as possible -- memento of the occasion / "badge of honour". Hope, though, that I'd have declined the cleaning offer politely and with good humour !

 

[RichmondCommu]

Ungrateful and stroppy teenagers are hardly confined to railways!

I concur and in my experience its even worse with girls. When my wife and I were raising our children occasional arguments were over differences of opinion and not actual, cold hard facts. The facts at Barrow Hill that afternoon being that if those ungrateful teenagers had waited to see the Pacific running around the shed yard they would have missed their train home. And yet still they gave their guardian abuse.

 

[47802]

I think its fairly simple really and applies for any situation for me
not just Rail Enthusiasts, If a fellow enthusiast talks to me I don't mind talking to them, If I find I like them and what they have to say I am happy to have a long conversation, but if I don't like them or think they are talking crap then I will try and keep the conversation as brief as possible without being rude.

 

[43021HST]

While it may be a solitary hobby for some, spotting certainly isn't for a lot of people - a good number of the crowd of spotters who go to Doncaster on a Thursday do so on that day so they can meet up with each other and have a chat etc rather than being there alone. You can also look back to the spotting heydays of the 60s-80s, when coachloads of spotters would do trips round places like Crewe Works and railway depots, with people often making long-term friendships with others on the trips.

I don't think the solitary nature just applies to railways/spotting either - when I've been out on trains, I've often seen lone men fishing by the river, but I'm sure there are others who go fishing with mates. Similarly, I'm sure there are some who go to football matches on their own and don't converse with the person next to them.

Mention has been made of making conversation with spotters and being rebuffed. Would anyone try making conversation about a random topic with a football fan who they didn't know at a match? I suspect the response might be similar! As Bramling quite rightly pointed out, knowing when to strike up conversation with someone is a social skill itself.

Another social skill which hasn't been mentioned is that of tolerance, and I suspect a few people (both railway enthusiasts and others) could do with improving on that too!

Absolutely spot on there. I think it's to do with male psychology, men tend to be very task focused, whereas the fairer sex are more communication and emotionally focused. Basically communicating is more of task for men than women. So if men set about a task fully expecting to engaged without the need to communicate with others, you may receive a seemingly rude response even if they don't intend too.

However if you set about a task, but fully aware that there maybe some social contact from other people, rather than being caught on the unawares, often you can be a little more prepared for any, unwarranted small talk.

Small talk by the way I find incredibly irritating, it's just a load of stating the obvious, but I find myself easily pressured into it for sake of social niceties. As much as I'm tempted to say I support Corbyn or their opinion on Keynesian Economics, to make them go away, my own sense of politeness prevents me.

As an aside, as much as I enjoy trains, I find having a hardcore discussion about trains with a fellow spotter quite awkward, even if they're perfectly socially suave. I don't have a clue why. It's why I frequent the general discussion forum more than the more train focused forums, as I find reading the usual rumours, speculation and rebuffs about something like pacer door buttons rather wearing. The stuff worth debating about such as HS2, Beeching cuts and privatisation vs nationalisation has been discussed to death before, so the majority of the time I much prefer a general chat with merely a train theme as it gives scope for a variety of debates.

 

[DarloRich]

It's not about helping them find them. It's about modelling socially accepted ways of being in a positive way.

Example: Someone speaks to someone, and is ignored. Consequence: The ignored now becomes the ignorer when spoken to by someone else. If you imagine that four or five times a day, then pretty soon it is going to be an issue when they realise that's not how it should be.

I wont ignore anyone, especially someone obviously "challenged" and I certainly wont be rude to them in any way - however I wont go out of my way to speak to the obvious super spotters.

Small talk by the way I find incredibly irritating, it's just a load of stating the obvious, but I find myself easily pressured into it for sake of social niceties. As much as I'm tempted to say I support Corbyn or their opinion on Keynesian Economics, to make them go away, my own sense of politeness prevents me.

it is a crucial part of life and something many here seem to lack and/or misunderstand. It is simply an open conversation on no defined topic and an attempt to find common ground, some connection and in particular be a conversation opener.

 

[Calthrop]

Absolutely spot on there. I think it's to do with male psychology, men tend to be very task focused, whereas the fairer sex are more communication and emotionally focused. Basically communicating is more of task for men than women. So if men set about a task fully expecting to engaged without the need to communicate with others, you may receive a seemingly rude response even if they don't intend too.

However if you set about a task, but fully aware that there maybe some social contact from other people, rather than being caught on the unawares, often you can be a little more prepared for any, unwarranted small talk.

Small talk by the way I find incredibly irritating, it's just a load of stating the obvious, but I find myself easily pressured into it for sake of social niceties. As much as I'm tempted to say I support Corbyn or their opinion on Keynesian Economics, to make them go away, my own sense of politeness prevents me.

it is a crucial part of life and something many here seem to lack and/or misunderstand. It is simply an open conversation on no defined topic and an attempt to find common ground, some connection and in particular be a conversation opener.

Small talk (certainly as per you, DarloRich, a useful accomplishment as a "social lubricant"): is IMO a thing for which not everyone has natural or "second-natural" talent, or the knack of imitating those who are adept at it. I'm not good at it -- enjoy conversing about things seen as worth one's attention, but tend toward the small-talk-hater's gut-feeling about "batting to and fro, large quantities of drivel about nothing".

Further to klambert's thoughts about gender difference here -- at the risk of being accused of sexism: I wonder whether women tend to have overall more interests / focuses [foci?] in common, than men do -- thus, more chat-fodder ready to hand, among the female sex -- and that sex thus displaying more of a habit of chattiness? (As with all such generalisations, there are of course a million individual exceptions to them.)

 

[AndrewE]

In my experience most enthusiasts (I'm one myself) are perfectly pleasant, as one would expect, many are eccentric, some clearly like to keep themselves to themselves - this is usually very obvious from their discrete behaviour - and perfectly understandable.

Glad someone has picked up the OP's question about "enthusiasts" - as opposed to spotters!
I wonder if the fact that we are members of this forum makes us enthusiasts, whereas lots of us will never (or only briefly) have been spotters! I might admit to being an enthusiast, but have lots of other interests that severely limit the time to enjoy real rail, hence virtual discussions, regular train journeys but only occasional visits to preserved railways.

 

[Bromley boy]

Glad someone has picked up the OP's question about "enthusiasts" - as opposed to spotters!
I wonder if the fact that we are members of this forum makes us enthusiasts, whereas lots of us will never (or only briefly) have been spotters! I might admit to being an enthusiast, but have lots of other interests that severely limit the time to enjoy real rail, hence virtual discussions, regular train journeys but only occasional visits to preserved railways.

There's definitely a difference between the two groups. There's clearly an overlap - clearly quite a few enthusiasts are also spotters - but I've certainly spoken to quite a few spotters whose interest is too narrow for them to be enthusiasts.

I went on a railtour recently and got chatting to a few people of the "spotter" variety - nice enough guys, although from their conversation I gathered they weren't particularly interested in the wider operational aspects of the railway. The tour passed Gatwick airport and a few of them pulled out aviation magazines. Aviation is a huge passion of mine and I expected a good discussion about flying - but I soon realised their interest in aviation, as with the railway, was limited to compiling endless lists of aircraft types and registrations!

It seems to me that for these guys, the spotting is an end in itself. Perhaps it's the order, structure and compulsive nature of the activity that appeals to them.

 

[43021HST]

I'm off the opinion that yes small talk is a useful social tool, as a way of starting off a discussion.

But I feel for the vast majority of the time, people use it to fill a conversational gap as they either feel pressured into having a conversation they don't want to have, or lack the personality to say something engaging. I've met people who only talk in small talk, and then very quickly unmet them.

Small talk is the conversational equivalent of those adverts you get above the windows in the tube train to provide a bit of distraction, to avoid actually making contact with another human being.

I'm sorry chaps but in common english, the mass consensus is that railway enthusiast and spotter are the same thing.

Rather than explaining to people that I'm an enthusiast rather than a spotter as I don't collect numbers, to see their eyes glaze over. I just keep it short and say that I'm spotter. it also reinforces the stereotype. That you're a unhumourous, tedious sod.