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Railway enthusiast, social being, or both?

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Calthrop

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General Discussion seems to me the most suitable sub-forum for this post – mods, please shift if appropriate.

Reflections prompted by reading, of late, the largely-railway memoirs of a British enthusiast now aged about 80. The memoir-writer is a big proponent of the importance of being a worthwhile / rounded / contributing human being, rather than an obsessive, hermit-like hobbyist: he opines, “Railways are a fine place from which to start the escape from the immediately obvious and shallow, but an awful prison in which to incarcerate the mind”. He mentions in passing, a couple of encounters in relatively recent years with enthusiasts clearly a lot younger than himself; whom he plainly considered to have failed his being-properly-human test.

One was encountered on a big station, busy noting down observed train numbers; not very willing to converse at length with the author, or to be particularly civil – ending with “turning away, terminating the conversation to stare blankly into the tunnel”. The other, in an opposite seat on a train – monopolising the supposedly-shared table with “a mass of timetables, stockbooks, notebooks and Dictaphones [sic]”. “Any attempt at conversation about our common interest was met with a glare and a non-committal grunt as he fixed unrelenting attention outside...” An attempt by the author at indicating the obliterated site of a one-time station – a haunt of the author’s half a century previously – was rebuffed with “Shhh ! I don’t want to miss anything!” There follows in the text, fairly vitriolic stuff by the author about – in his view – behaviour unsatisfactory verging on the sub-human.

Various chords struck for me, by all this. There is a wide awareness that many railway enthusiasts definitely lack social smoothness and savoir-faire: “chicken and egg” -- it’s what tends to make them railway enthusiasts in the first place; and / or if they’d been from the first, socially on the ball, they’d have eschewed such nerdy pursuits as railway enthusiasm. Numerous railfans, at least when doing their thing, don’t want to be social / conversational beings – they just want to get on with their gricing. I’ve been on different parts of this continuum: though fairly socially awkward, I do enjoy talking about the hobby with fellow-addicts – uncomfortable experience over the decades has shown me that many such fellow-addicts don’t feel likewise: anyway when out on the grice, they just want to do – not to yak at length about the hobby or anything else, with annoying would-be latchers-on; and they can be very blunt about thus informing the latcher-on. Which would make my octogenarian author consider them boors and inferior specimens of humanity; but then, “who died and appointed him God?”.

I’ve been the rejected latcher-on-wannabe; and also at times, the absorbed hobbyist not wanting to be bothered by latching-on motor-mouths (though impeded by childhood conditioning to the effect that one should try to be polite, even to the annoying). It can be a difficult business if one would rather have, on the whole, pleasant dealings with one’s fellow-humans.

I find it interesting that even among those for whom polite behaviour is important; not everyone is in unanimity with my elderly memoirist, to the effect that “being human and in society, always trumps silly solitary pursuits”. There’s an (American) Net discussion board dedicated to good etiquette and its promotion, which I frequent; which strongly espouses the position that personal privacy is acceptable and defensible. People thereon, mostly agree that one has a right to get on unmolested – including in public – with one’s own business: the would-be gabby stranger does not get an automatic pass to latch on to one and annexe one’s attention “for their conversational entertainment”. If you’re happy to enter into conversation with them, fine; if not – “good etiquette does not mean being a doormat” – it is perfectly acceptable to rebuff them (politely, rather than in terms of “**** off and die, **********er !”). They should have enough of a grasp on politeness to realise that their desire to yak with a randomly-met person, does not mean entitlement for them for that result to come about.

Would be interested in others’ experiences of being somewhere – especially re the hobby -- on this “leave me alone – conversation-sharing” continuum; and maybe of conflicting sentiments concerning same – or strong feelings one way or the other.
 
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yorksrob

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I don't usually start up conversations with strangers unless either I've had a few, or its a situation which lends itself to it, such as a railtour.

There are times when I'm not in the mood, for example the time when I was sat in Weatherspoons enjoying my breakfast listening to my headphones. What it was about this scene which made some stranger think I would be receptive to him sitting opposite me and striking up a conversation I don't know.
 

Tim R-T-C

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This hobby certainly attracts some unusual sorts, but then most of my hobbies do - aircraft photography, motorsports watching/photography, professional wrestling and mountaineering. Across all of them, you will find that some people are happy to talk, some are happy to listed, while some just prefer to be on their own.

I think the most important social skill is to identify which your companion is. You don't want to be the one rambling on at them, nor do you want to be the one sat in a silent stupor.
 

TheNewNo2

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I'm not a very sociable person, and frankly I consider trainspotting to be a solitary activity - I'm not interested in doing it en masse. Someone talking to me is liable to make me miss something.
 

Iskra

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I'm a perfectly sociable human being, I socialise, and even when I'm gallivanting around on my railway trips I doubt anyone would know I was a train enthusiast, I don't record numbers, I don't take lots of photos, I don't fit (m)any of the train-spotter stereotypes. I do much more 'normal' stuff than railway stuff.

But, I spend 5 days a week talking to people or being talked at. Constantly. I find it draining sometimes. On my days off I often have planned social activities too. Sometimes, I would very much like to be left alone, railways are my escape, it's the only hobby I don't share with anyone else so at times I like the solitude and in the job I do, the more distance I can put between myself and my site, the less chance there is of me being called in to deal with situations. Even better if I'm in a tunnel or an obscure location with no phone signal.

But, I still talk to people if they are nice, and sane. Whether that be railway enthusiasts or, general travellers that I often get talking to on trains, especially in delay or cancellation scenarios. If they aren't nice or sane, then I'm perfectly capable of extricating myself from the situation in a polite fashion.

It needs to be remembered that there are two ends to the social awkwardness scale, you've focused on the introvert side of it. I find those spotters on the extrovert side significantly more annoying and tedious. Not knowing when to stop talking, is just as bad as not knowing when to start talking, in my opinion at least. I'm sure you can all think of railway enthusiasts, who have to be that person in the carriage talking really loudly over the otherwise peaceful atmosphere, there is usually a large amount of one-upmanship in the content of their ramblings, they've been everywhere, cleared every class, anything anyone else has done, they've done better, I see lots of them zzzzz.
 

bramling

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General Discussion seems to me the most suitable sub-forum for this post – mods, please shift if appropriate.

Reflections prompted by reading, of late, the largely-railway memoirs of a British enthusiast now aged about 80. The memoir-writer is a big proponent of the importance of being a worthwhile / rounded / contributing human being, rather than an obsessive, hermit-like hobbyist: he opines, “Railways are a fine place from which to start the escape from the immediately obvious and shallow, but an awful prison in which to incarcerate the mind”. He mentions in passing, a couple of encounters in relatively recent years with enthusiasts clearly a lot younger than himself; whom he plainly considered to have failed his being-properly-human test.

One was encountered on a big station, busy noting down observed train numbers; not very willing to converse at length with the author, or to be particularly civil – ending with “turning away, terminating the conversation to stare blankly into the tunnel”. The other, in an opposite seat on a train – monopolising the supposedly-shared table with “a mass of timetables, stockbooks, notebooks and Dictaphones [sic]”. “Any attempt at conversation about our common interest was met with a glare and a non-committal grunt as he fixed unrelenting attention outside...” An attempt by the author at indicating the obliterated site of a one-time station – a haunt of the author’s half a century previously – was rebuffed with “Shhh ! I don’t want to miss anything!” There follows in the text, fairly vitriolic stuff by the author about – in his view – behaviour unsatisfactory verging on the sub-human.

Various chords struck for me, by all this. There is a wide awareness that many railway enthusiasts definitely lack social smoothness and savoir-faire: “chicken and egg” -- it’s what tends to make them railway enthusiasts in the first place; and / or if they’d been from the first, socially on the ball, they’d have eschewed such nerdy pursuits as railway enthusiasm. Numerous railfans, at least when doing their thing, don’t want to be social / conversational beings – they just want to get on with their gricing. I’ve been on different parts of this continuum: though fairly socially awkward, I do enjoy talking about the hobby with fellow-addicts – uncomfortable experience over the decades has shown me that many such fellow-addicts don’t feel likewise: anyway when out on the grice, they just want to do – not to yak at length about the hobby or anything else, with annoying would-be latchers-on; and they can be very blunt about thus informing the latcher-on. Which would make my octogenarian author consider them boors and inferior specimens of humanity; but then, “who died and appointed him God?”.

I’ve been the rejected latcher-on-wannabe; and also at times, the absorbed hobbyist not wanting to be bothered by latching-on motor-mouths (though impeded by childhood conditioning to the effect that one should try to be polite, even to the annoying). It can be a difficult business if one would rather have, on the whole, pleasant dealings with one’s fellow-humans.

I find it interesting that even among those for whom polite behaviour is important; not everyone is in unanimity with my elderly memoirist, to the effect that “being human and in society, always trumps silly solitary pursuits”. There’s an (American) Net discussion board dedicated to good etiquette and its promotion, which I frequent; which strongly espouses the position that personal privacy is acceptable and defensible. People thereon, mostly agree that one has a right to get on unmolested – including in public – with one’s own business: the would-be gabby stranger does not get an automatic pass to latch on to one and annexe one’s attention “for their conversational entertainment”. If you’re happy to enter into conversation with them, fine; if not – “good etiquette does not mean being a doormat” – it is perfectly acceptable to rebuff them (politely, rather than in terms of “**** off and die, **********er !”). They should have enough of a grasp on politeness to realise that their desire to yak with a randomly-met person, does not mean entitlement for them for that result to come about.

Would be interested in others’ experiences of being somewhere – especially re the hobby -- on this “leave me alone – conversation-sharing” continuum; and maybe of conflicting sentiments concerning same – or strong feelings one way or the other.

Depends on the mood. Some times I am up for being sociable, but there are certainly some times when I wish I could enforce an exclusion zone. As a general point some people are grossly poor at judging whether their starting and maintaining conversation with someone is welcome or not.
 

Segedunum

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I'm usually up for a chat but absolutely can't deal with hours and hours of train related monologues off someone. "Talking shop" is fine if it's part of a normal conversation but I've had a few blokes (mainly when I was younger) just take over the conversation and discuss every finite detail of what they've seen today, etc. It does start to wear thin.

Indeed, I've struck up many conversations on trains with normal folk about the usual topics, just takes the right person who's willing to engage. You can't force it on them.

Sent from my F3111 using Tapatalk
 

Bayum

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It's funny you mention the social side of things. Autism and aspergers are very well known conditions that people living with them can fixate on things that can be collected - train numbers, pictures as an example. The lack of social discourse could be put down to their awareness and how their parts of the brain aren't linked correctly.

I'd be most interested to see whether there is a relationship between 'spotters' and the autistic spectrum. Though I'm not going to go out of my way and research right now.

As for me, I'm not a spotter, I'm certainly not the kind of person who would write down train numbers or names. I will YouTube videos if they come up in my feed, but I'd only go out of my way to view if it were new rolling stock. I do, however, love to travel, and there are certain classes that I'll travel with.
 

Tim R-T-C

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I'd be most interested to see whether there is a relationship between 'spotters' and the autistic spectrum. Though I'm not going to go out of my way and research right now.

I would expect a 99% correlation!

Certainly for those who 'collect', be it numbers, photos, routes etc.
 

RichmondCommu

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I'm not a very sociable person, and frankly I consider trainspotting to be a solitary activity - I'm not interested in doing it en masse. Someone talking to me is liable to make me miss something.

However is it really the end of the world if you do miss something? It is after all just a train.
 

LowLevel

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I struggle with quite a lot of enthusiasts.

If I don't talk about railways then it's generally down to feeling uncomfortable and not wanting to get trapped in discourse with someone odd (from bitter experience).

On occasion however I will sit and have a chat about it politely, particularly if on a preserved line or similar.

At work however (I'm a guard) I find it best to steer well clear unless it's someone I know.
 

Antman

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Depends on the mood. Some times I am up for being sociable, but there are certainly some times when I wish I could enforce an exclusion zone. As a general point some people are grossly poor at judging whether their starting and maintaining conversation with someone is welcome or not.

I'm exactly the same, I couldn't have put it better.
 

DarloRich

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I am afraid my views on spotters wont be popular. Sadly many DO live up to the stereotype. They are not well rounded individuals and do absolutely display obsessive, hermit-like behaviour and seem to revel in being lonely, solitary individuals.

I am not a spotter although I am interested in trains and railways and taking pictures of them. I will be honest and say I try never to talk to the obvious super spotters (although I seem to attract them) as they simply have nothing to talk about but dull, boring, constant drivel about trains, much of which is actually wrong. ( and they don't take well to being challenged) With some refection I do feel sorry for these guys ( and they are always guys) as they must miss out on so much in life and love and exist in a very lonely solitary world. That said i have fallen int conversation with people out collecting train numbers or taking photogrpahs and found them to be engaging company. They have that perspective on life that those with an obsession lack.

I do agree that many people ( mainly men) exhibit some form of obsessive/autisitic type behaviour. Be it football programmes, alphabetised records, beer mats or stamps many people collect something. The key is being able to either mask or overcome that obession and lead a full rounded life. Sadly I fear many spotters are unable to do that or even identify the issue.

There is so much more to life than trains. Go out and find it.
 
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Bayum

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I am afraid my views on spotters wont be popular. Sadly many DO live up to the stereotype. They are not well rounded individuals and do absolutely display obsessive, hermit-like behaviour and seem to revel in being lonely, solitary individuals.

I am not a spotter although I am interested in trains and railways and taking pictures of them. I will be honest and say I try never to talk to the obvious super spotters (although I seem to attract them) as they simply have nothing to talk about but dull, boring, constant drivel about trains, much of which is actually wrong. ( and they don't take well to being challenged) With some refection I do feel sorry for these guys ( and they are always guys) as they must miss out on so much in life and love and exist in a very lonely solitary world. That said i have fallen int conversation with people out collecting train numbers or taking photogrpahs and found them to be engaging company. They have that perspective on life that those with an obsession lack.

I do agree that many people ( mainly men) exhibit some form of obsessive/autisitic type behaviour. Be it football programmes, alphabetised records, beer mats or stamps many people collect something. The key is being able to either mask or overcome that obession and lead a full rounded life. Sadly I fear many spotters are unable to do that or even identify the issue.

There is so much more to life than trains. Go out and find it.

But again, for those on the autistic spectrum, they might not have the social skills to talk about anything else - at least they can talk about a topic that's of interest to them. Instead of displaying uninterest, which people on the autistic spectrum struggle to identify, maybe just tell them?
 

Antman

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I am afraid my views on spotters wont be popular. Sadly many DO live up to the stereotype. They are not well rounded individuals and do absolutely display obsessive, hermit-like behaviour and seem to revel in being lonely, solitary individuals.

I am not a spotter although I am interested in trains and railways and taking pictures of them. I will be honest and say I try never to talk to the obvious super spotters (although I seem to attract them) as they simply have nothing to talk about but dull, boring, constant drivel about trains, much of which is actually wrong. ( and they don't take well to being challenged) With some refection I do feel sorry for these guys ( and they are always guys) as they must miss out on so much in life and love and exist in a very lonely solitary world. That said i have fallen int conversation with people out collecting train numbers or taking photogrpahs and found them to be engaging company. They have that perspective on life that those with an obsession lack.

I do agree that many people ( mainly men) exhibit some form of obsessive/autisitic type behaviour. Be it football programmes, alphabetised records, beer mats or stamps many people collect something. The key is being able to either mask or overcome that obession and lead a full rounded life. Sadly I fear many spotters are unable to do that or even identify the issue.

There is so much more to life than trains. Go out and find it.

Although I'm not a spotter myself, I just don't have the time apart from anything else, I certainly don't go along with such stereotyping.

I think most of us have some autistic traits although many won't admit it.

And why should anybody have to go out and find whatever else there is in life? Spotters, possibly with a few exceptions, aren't interfering with anybody else so what's the problem?
 
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DarloRich

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But again, for those on the autistic spectrum, they might not have the social skills to talk about anything else - at least they can talk about a topic that's of interest to them. Instead of displaying uninterest, which people on the autistic spectrum struggle to identify, maybe just tell them?

Perhaps - but as was pointed out above one doesn't want to appear rude, even to the annoying.

While I do feel sorry for people lacking what are crucial and obvious social skills put bluntly it is not my job to help them find them. I do not feel I am equipped with the skills to do so.
 

DarloRich

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Although I'm not a spotter myself, I just don't have the time apart from anything else, I certainly don't go along with such stereotyping.

I think most of us have some autistic traits although many won't admit it.

you haven't seen my football programme collection ;)

And why should anybody have to go out and find whatever else there is in life? Spotters, possibly with a few exceptions, aren't interfering with anybody else so what's the problem?


They should go and find life because it is much more enriching and rewarding than staying a solitary lonely person standing on a cold platform writing down numbers. Nothing wrong with that at all but there is more you could experience and enjoy to expand knowledge, skills and friendship base and enhance your life.
 
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bramling

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However is it really the end of the world if you do miss something? It is after all just a train.

Whilst not the "end of the world", I can certainly see how it might be irritating if someone comes up and starts a conversation in front of a person's nose whilst they're trying to take a photo of something, especially if that photo is what they've set out to do. This could be said to lack just as much social skill and situation judgement as is often levelled at 'trainspotters'.
 

Darandio

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Whilst not the "end of the world", I can certainly see how it might be irritating if someone comes up and starts a conversation in front of a person's nose whilst they're trying to take a photo of something, especially if that photo is what they've set out to do. This could be said to lack just as much social skill and situation judgement as is often levelled at 'trainspotters'.

Moral of the story.....

See a spotter, don't be friendly and certainly don't talk. Leave them in isolation.

Got it.
 

Antman

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Moral of the story.....

See a spotter, don't be friendly and certainly don't talk. Leave them in isolation.

Got it.

Or maybe use your own judgement as to whether they will wish to engage in conversation? And of course this doesn't just apply to spotters.
 

Antman

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you haven't seen my football programme collection ;)




They should go and find life because it is much more enriching and rewarding than staying a solitary lonely person standing on a cold platform writing down numbers. Nothing wrong with that at all but there is more you could experience and enjoy to expand knowledge, skills and friendship base and enhance your life.

Of course some may be quite happy on a cold platform writing down numbers just as some are happy standing in the cold watching football, and yes I've got a programme collection too;)!
 

bramling

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Moral of the story.....

See a spotter, don't be friendly and certainly don't talk. Leave them in isolation.

Got it.

Not at all. My comments are not specifically regarding spotters, but more about people in general.

Some people are simply used to being able to enjoy their own company more than others. In some cases this may well be down to their childhood as some children spend more time alone than others. There's certainly times when I enjoy my own company - for example if I've had a week at work dealing with problem people (as can happen from time to time) I'm more-than happy to want nothing more than the sanity of my own company. Certain professions demand that people spend time on their own - train driving and, sometimes, signalling too, are good examples of this.

I don't see enjoying one's own company as a bad thing at all. For a start it's a useful skill to have in many job roles. Even in an office environment it may well be a good thing if it means someone gets on with their work instead of gossiping all day. Secondly, in some cases these sorts of people can often be more interesting when they do converse. I'd much rather someone comes out with a few words about something interesting than rambling on about village gossip (who's shagged who, who's just bought a lovely new pair of shoes, so and so's parents have just split up, etc).

As I posted elsewhere, there's a social skill in being able to judge when to strike up conversation with someone, and more importantly a social skill in being able to judge when not to enforce continuing conversation on someone. Quite a few people, including some rail enthusiasts it might be added, are lacking particularly in the second of those.
 
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Darandio

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Or maybe use your own judgement as to whether they will wish to engage in conversation? And of course this doesn't just apply to spotters.

Oh I get it, it was more tongue in cheek than anything.

I'd also argue that many do actually want to engage but have little experience in doing so and therefore give off the wrong 'signals' making it harder to make the correct judgement.
 

Antman

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you haven't seen my football programme collection ;)




They should go and find life because it is much more enriching and rewarding than staying a solitary lonely person standing on a cold platform writing down numbers. Nothing wrong with that at all but there is more you could experience and enjoy to expand knowledge, skills and friendship base and enhance your life.

Of course some may be quite happy on a cold platform writing down numbers just as some are happy standing in the cold watching football, and yes I've got a programme collection too;)!
 

DarloRich

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Of course some may be quite happy on a cold platform writing down numbers just as some are happy standing in the cold watching football, and yes I've got a programme collection too;)!

Agreed - i just think there is more to experience and enjoy in life if you want to find it.


BTW Much of what i have seen stretched the definition of football almost to breaking point. And it is always cold!
 

Darandio

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BTW Much of what i have seen stretched the definition of football almost to breaking point. And it is always cold!

It's interesting to couple a social discussion with football, especially in lower leagues.

The main social part of watching a match for me was going to the fire station for a few (insanely cheap) pints beforehand, then walking up to Feethams to see Reynolds parade himself along the touchline whilst waving like the Queen.

Once the match started, the social side pretty much stopped and I can see how that could be perceived as being lonely.
 

J-2739

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I used to be hyper obsessed with trains and buses. Like, I'd waste my day watching videos of them and nothing else. It was so soul draining, but I kept on doing it.

However, I also had an interest in video gaming, and a mild interest in football (I played for a team for a bit!). However, most ofy life was consumed by my train hobby. That is all I had to present to everyone at school (and I didn't even tell anyone about it), so I appeared as a pretty boring person. That's when I knew that I had to diverse my interests. So throughout this year, I have made more progress to be more interesting. I got social media for the first time, went to the cinema a couple of times, made quite a lot of new friends, talk about lots of stuff (holidays, food, video games and all sorts, and even came up with nicknames for each other, lol). One of them is a Leeds supporter, and we have out daily banter with each other (I'm a soon to be Barnsley supporter, first match next month).

I guess even if I still like trains (as I'm on this forum, lol), I shouldn't let it take over my life. Make yourself have different interests, and you'll always attract many people to you. Some way.
 

theblackwatch

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While it may be a solitary hobby for some, spotting certainly isn't for a lot of people - a good number of the crowd of spotters who go to Doncaster on a Thursday do so on that day so they can meet up with each other and have a chat etc rather than being there alone. You can also look back to the spotting heydays of the 60s-80s, when coachloads of spotters would do trips round places like Crewe Works and railway depots, with people often making long-term friendships with others on the trips.

I don't think the solitary nature just applies to railways/spotting either - when I've been out on trains, I've often seen lone men fishing by the river, but I'm sure there are others who go fishing with mates. Similarly, I'm sure there are some who go to football matches on their own and don't converse with the person next to them.

Mention has been made of making conversation with spotters and being rebuffed. Would anyone try making conversation about a random topic with a football fan who they didn't know at a match? I suspect the response might be similar! As Bramling quite rightly pointed out, knowing when to strike up conversation with someone is a social skill itself.

Another social skill which hasn't been mentioned is that of tolerance, and I suspect a few people (both railway enthusiasts and others) could do with improving on that too!
 
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