Class 185 refurbishment for TPE.

[61653 HTAFC]

I am sure someone mentioned that "the ballroom" in Coach C was also getting some love and attention to make it more welcoming. I wonder what has been done there.

It is where I spend most of my time on the 185s, crammed in with the rest of the commuters from Stalybridge.

Certain contributors to these fora have issue with that area, but I'm yet to hear a proposed alternative arrangement that wouldn't be worse either in terms of reduced first-class provision or of reduced standing area at peak times. Ultimately as they're stuck as 3-car units, the "Ballroom" is the least-worst compromise. Smartening it up a bit will be very welcome though!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Certain contributors to these fora have issue with that area, but I'm yet to hear a proposed alternative arrangement that wouldn't be worse either in terms of reduced first-class provision or of reduced standing area at peak times. Ultimately as they're stuck as 3-car units, the "Ballroom" is the least-worst compromise. Smartening it up a bit will be very welcome though!

Move First to the other end of the unit either side of the end door (basically in the same sort of layout as the Class 321), having two nice private compartments either side of a dedicated door. Put Standard seating in the present First Class area. It makes no sense in a non-gangwayed unit to have First anywhere else than right at one end.

OK, that would mean one fewer vestibule's worth of Standard standing, but you could get that back by removing the trolley dock and First Class luggage rack, as I've never seen the former actually used, and the latter isn't heavily used either and could be reduced in size.

They were stupid not putting the wheelchair spaces and disabled bog at the inner end of a Standard vehicle, though, and that's rather more expensive to fix.

 

[IanXC]

OK, that would mean one fewer vestibule's worth of Standard standing, but you could get that back by removing the trolley dock and First Class luggage rack, as I've never seen the former actually used, and the latter isn't heavily used either and could be reduced in size.

You've never seen the trolley dock used?!

Its been used every single time I have seen the host in the first class area for a couple of years now.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You've never seen the trolley dock used?!

Nope. Generally the trolley has been out selling.

In any case, these units are going to run as 6-car pairs in future, so losing a vestibule's worth of standing won't be an issue.

 

[IanXC]

Nope. Generally the trolley has been out selling.

In any case, these units are going to run as 6-car pairs in future, so losing a vestibule's worth of standing won't be an issue.

:roll: Of course "generally" it has been out selling. But while serving in First Class and in between runs the trolley should be stowed in the trolley dock...

While we are lead to believe the Hull and Cleethorpes will run 6-car (at least at key parts of the day), the Leeds - Piccadilly stopper is a whole different kettle of fish. One where capacity may well end up being an issue - we will see in time whether a "vestibule's worth of standing" can be sensibly lost.

 

[BMIFlyer]

Move First to the other end of the unit either side of the end door (basically in the same sort of layout as the Class 321), having two nice private compartments either side of a dedicated door. Put Standard seating in the present First Class area. It makes no sense in a non-gangwayed unit to have First anywhere else than right at one end.

OK, that would mean one fewer vestibule's worth of Standard standing, but you could get that back by removing the trolley dock and First Class luggage rack, as I've never seen the former actually used, and the latter isn't heavily used either and could be reduced in size.

They were stupid not putting the wheelchair spaces and disabled bog at the inner end of a Standard vehicle, though, and that's rather more expensive to fix.

As has been mentioned before the layout of the toilets etc, is due to weight distribution and other factors. Moving 1st class anywhere else wouldn't work as you'd be having less seats on the train overall.

Regarding the catering dock this is being redesigned and the new area fitted to the refurbished 185's - comes with a fridge and more storage amongst other things.

 

[hibtastic]

:roll: Of course "generally" it has been out selling. But while serving in First Class and in between runs the trolley should be stowed in the trolley dock...

While we are lead to believe the Hull and Cleethorpes will run 6-car (at least at key parts of the day), the Leeds - Piccadilly stopper is a whole different kettle of fish. One where capacity may well end up being an issue - we will see in time whether a "vestibule's worth of standing" can be sensibly lost.

Absolutely - the Leeds stopper is going to be horrendously overcrowded if it's going to be 3 cars only.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As has been mentioned before the layout of the toilets etc, is due to weight distribution and other factors.

Then the design is absolute rubbish, frankly. The 350 manages to have it at the inner vehicle end.

The design is cobbled-together rubbish anyway - for example, I'm not sure that there are two windows the same size[1] in an entire unit. It's a 350 squashed and stretched in a totally bodge-job fashion - the "ballroom" is but one example of just how much of a bodge of a design it actually is. It's too heavy, it's overpowered for most of its work, it drinks fuel, it rides roughly, it has a hugely wasteful interior layout, it can't use SP differentials etc.

As one would expect from Siemens the build quality is high and the vertical sidewalls make it feel spacious, luggage racks are large, and I like the seats, but there's little else going for it.

[1] Exaggeration, but there are at least 5 different window sizes, which must be a nightmare for parts departments. A sensible design would have one, or at most two, sizes of window.

Moving 1st class anywhere else wouldn't work as you'd be having less seats on the train overall.

Eh? If you did what I propose you'd lose a vestibule for Standard standing. There is no reason for it to change the number of seats, you simply put the mid-coach partition in a location where it leaves the same number.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Absolutely - the Leeds stopper is going to be horrendously overcrowded if it's going to be 3 cars only.

We've been sold a pup, then - all indications on here were that they would operate exclusively in pairs.

They are not suitable for operating local stopping services in any case, the layout is wrong. It should really stay with Northern and be operated using a pair of Class 150s or a Class 319 conversion.

 

[BMIFlyer]

Then the design is absolute rubbish, frankly. The 350 manages to have it at the inner vehicle end.

The design is cobbled-together rubbish anyway - for example, I'm not sure that there are two windows the same size[1] in an entire unit. It's a 350 squashed and stretched in a totally bodge-job fashion - the "ballroom" is but one example of just how much of a bodge of a design it actually is. It's too heavy, it's overpowered for most of its work, it drinks fuel, it rides roughly, it has a hugely wasteful interior layout, it can't use SP differentials etc.

As one would expect from Siemens the build quality is high and the vertical sidewalls make it feel spacious, luggage racks are large, and I like the seats, but there's little else going for it.

[1] Exaggeration, but there are at least 5 different window sizes, which must be a nightmare for parts departments. A sensible design would have one, or at most two, sizes of window.



Eh? If you did what I propose you'd lose a vestibule for Standard standing. There is no reason for it to change the number of seats, you simply put the mid-coach partition in a location where it leaves the same number.

The class 350 doesn't have an engine and a fuel tank under each vehicle however.

The train is overpowered for redundancy hence it can keep to time climbing the hills on only two engines. Fuel economy is a moot point with the new eco mode which has saved a huge amount of fuel since introducing it on the units.

 

[BMIFlyer]

Absolutely - the Leeds stopper is going to be horrendously overcrowded if it's going to be 3 cars only.

It should be 6, with 4 coaches accessible on the platform thanks to ASDO.

 

[CosherB]

Then the design is absolute rubbish, frankly. The 350 manages to have it at the inner vehicle end.

The design is cobbled-together rubbish anyway - for example, I'm not sure that there are two windows the same size[1] in an entire unit. It's a 350 squashed and stretched in a totally bodge-job fashion - the "ballroom" is but one example of just how much of a bodge of a design it actually is. It's too heavy, it's overpowered for most of its work, it drinks fuel, it rides roughly, it has a hugely wasteful interior layout, it can't use SP differentials etc.

So you don't like 185s?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So you don't like 185s?

I wouldn't say I hated them, they aren't exactly 142s or 150s, but they are an utterly appalling piece of design, which as I said was clearly an attempt to stretch and dieselise a 350 on the cheap rather than coming up with a clearly distinct design (like the excellent Class 444 is a distinct design) for a 23m doors-at-thirds diesel unit.

It doesn't help that they are, and were from day one, also at least one coach too short, but that is by no means the only problem with them.

 

[BMIFlyer]

185143 has a new decal added - Hull Capital of Culture

 

[Bantamzen]

Then the design is absolute rubbish, frankly. The 350 manages to have it at the inner vehicle end.

The design is cobbled-together rubbish anyway - for example, I'm not sure that there are two windows the same size[1] in an entire unit. It's a 350 squashed and stretched in a totally bodge-job fashion - the "ballroom" is but one example of just how much of a bodge of a design it actually is. It's too heavy, it's overpowered for most of its work, it drinks fuel, it rides roughly, it has a hugely wasteful interior layout, it can't use SP differentials etc.

As one would expect from Siemens the build quality is high and the vertical sidewalls make it feel spacious, luggage racks are large, and I like the seats, but there's little else going for it.

[1] Exaggeration, but there are at least 5 different window sizes, which must be a nightmare for parts departments. A sensible design would have one, or at most two, sizes of window.

The class 350 doesn't have an engine and a fuel tank under each vehicle however.

The train is overpowered for redundancy hence it can keep to time climbing the hills on only two engines. Fuel economy is a moot point with the new eco mode which has saved a huge amount of fuel since introducing it on the units.

People often bemoan the extra power, but believe me as a regular user over the Pennines when the snow is coming down over Marsden & Diggle, the sound of that extra HP is very pleasing as the 185s power up the ascents!

Design-wise they could have been better, and obviously longer. But I like the 185s, they do a terrific job given their workloads and provided there are no slows or freights ahead can make up time even over the tops. Very handy given the pinch points between York-Leeds and obviously through Manchester Picc that often see TPEs drop time through no fault of their own.

 

[Blindtraveler]

If the Leeds stopping service is to be 3 coaches only then thats just shocking, they will be standing in the toilets!


On the other debate, I really dont like 185s iether in the same way I dislike all deziros but awate the refurb with interest and cannot despute how they can make up time on the core sections, something they never managed on the Scotlands when they were forced up and down the WCML.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I like other Desiros, I'd go as far to say that the Class 444 is quite possibly the best EMU on the network, and the 350 is a pleasant unit to travel in as well (3+2 seated ones excepted). But the 185 is a bodge-job.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Then the design is absolute rubbish, frankly. The 350 manages to have it at the inner vehicle end.

The design is cobbled-together rubbish anyway - for example, I'm not sure that there are two windows the same size[1] in an entire unit. It's a 350 squashed and stretched in a totally bodge-job fashion - the "ballroom" is but one example of just how much of a bodge of a design it actually is. It's too heavy, it's overpowered for most of its work, it drinks fuel, it rides roughly, it has a hugely wasteful interior layout, it can't use SP differentials etc.

As one would expect from Siemens the build quality is high and the vertical sidewalls make it feel spacious, luggage racks are large, and I like the seats, but there's little else going for it.

[1] Exaggeration, but there are at least 5 different window sizes, which must be a nightmare for parts departments. A sensible design would have one, or at most two, sizes of window.



Eh? If you did what I propose you'd lose a vestibule for Standard standing. There is no reason for it to change the number of seats, you simply put the mid-coach partition in a location where it leaves the same number.

Echoes of the Life of Brian scene here: "But apart from the roads, the aqueducts, central heating, what else have the Romans ever done for us?"

 

[Bornin1980s]

^Brought peace!

 

[hibtastic]

It should be 6, with 4 coaches accessible on the platform thanks to ASDO.

Are there going to be enough 185s left to double up the Cleethorpes service as well as the semi fasts to Hull and Leeds? I am not so sure?

As 6 cars they will be very pleasant to travel on as I like the 185s but as 3 cars they can and will be a nightmare at times.

 

[Starmill]

I'm pretty sure there aren't. Although services to Cleethorpes might only be 6 car between Manchester and Doncaster (or even Sheffield).

The Leeds to Manchester stopping service is unlikely to cater for any end-to-end passengers.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I'm pretty sure there aren't. Although services to Cleethorpes might only be 6 car between Manchester and Doncaster (or even Sheffield).

The Leeds to Manchester stopping service is unlikely to cater for any end-to-end passengers.

It shouldn't, but it certainly will: many people are still in the habit of looking on the board for the Huddersfield stopper because they're going to Huddersfield- the same people who needed reminding at Huddersfield that all services from platform 8 will get to Leeds quicker than the one that says "Leeds" on the front.

 

[YorkshireLad]

I'm pretty sure there aren't. Although services to Cleethorpes might only be 6 car between Manchester and Doncaster (or even Sheffield).

The Leeds to Manchester stopping service is unlikely to cater for any end-to-end passengers.

I believe the franchise documents state that there'll only be 6 cars between Sheffield and Manchester

 

[Starmill]

It shouldn't, but it certainly will: many people are still in the habit of looking on the board for the Huddersfield stopper because they're going to Huddersfield- the same people who needed reminding at Huddersfield that all services from platform 8 will get to Leeds quicker than the one that says "Leeds" on the front.

This is simply a failure of information. The answer is to improve the information - it isn't a reason to upgrade the capacity of those services.

If we think about the market that the services might be serving (depending on the exact details of the timetable, yet to be published), it could be something like:

Manchester - Guide Bridge (fastest service) *
Guide Bridge (Glossop / New Mills) - Huddersfield and Leeds (if overtaken, these passengers may change at Huddersfield)
Manchester - Stalybridge *
Stalybridge - Marsden/Mossley
Stalybrdige - Huddersfield and Leeds (if overtaken, these passengers may change at Huddersfield)
Marsden/Mossley - Huddersfield and Leeds (if overtaken, these passengers may change at Huddersfield)
Huddersfield - Dewsbury*
Dewsbury - Leeds *
Mirfield / Batley / Morley - Leeds
Manchester - Dewsbury
Manchester - Mirfield / Batley / Morley

Local flows between Dewsbury and other Huddersfield line stations.

It seems unlikely there will be many people using trains for other local journeys because of their skip-stop nature.

The exact timetable will dictate how much Manchester <> Huddersfield, Huddersfield <> Leeds and Manchester <> Leeds passengers use these trains. Hopefully it will be very little or not at all.

*Large number of alternative services

And at peak times there will also be the Northern services serving Stalybridge - Huddersfield inclusive.

Bearing this in mind, will it really be full as a 3 car service?

 

[IanXC]

We've been sold a pup, then - all indications on here were that they would operate exclusively in pairs.

They are not suitable for operating local stopping services in any case, the layout is wrong. It should really stay with Northern and be operated using a pair of Class 150s or a Class 319 conversion.

We're yet to see the diagramming but ASDO suggests multiple working.

So their layout is not suitable for these stopping services, but is also not suitable for express journies? Am I right in therefore concluding that you don't believe they are suitable for anything?!

If the Leeds stopping service is to be 3 coaches only then thats just shocking, they will be standing in the toilets!

The Leeds - Huddersfield services are generally 3 car 144s or equivalent so I'm not sure this is a particular issue! At the Manchester end the Huddersfield services are generally 4 cars but this service pattern will be different, with the rump Victoria to Stalybridge stoppers serving Ashton and Stalybridge, and the TPE serving the others so it's not entirely comparable anyway.

 

[Philip]

Having doubled up 185s working all of the Leeds shuttles seems like an overkill to me. First will not want half of the train regularly being empty on off peak day time services.

 

[Greybeard33]

This is simply a failure of information. The answer is to improve the information - it isn't a reason to upgrade the capacity of those services.

If we think about the market that the services might be serving (depending on the exact details of the timetable, yet to be published), it could be something like:

Manchester - Guide Bridge (fastest service) *
Guide Bridge (Glossop / New Mills) - Huddersfield and Leeds (if overtaken, these passengers may change at Huddersfield)
Manchester - Stalybridge *
Stalybridge - Marsden/Mossley
Stalybrdige - Huddersfield and Leeds (if overtaken, these passengers may change at Huddersfield)
Marsden/Mossley - Huddersfield and Leeds (if overtaken, these passengers may change at Huddersfield)
Huddersfield - Dewsbury*
Dewsbury - Leeds *
Mirfield / Batley / Morley - Leeds
Manchester - Dewsbury
Manchester - Mirfield / Batley / Morley

Local flows between Dewsbury and other Huddersfield line stations.

It seems unlikely there will be many people using trains for other local journeys because of their skip-stop nature.

The exact timetable will dictate how much Manchester <> Huddersfield, Huddersfield <> Leeds and Manchester <> Leeds passengers use these trains. Hopefully it will be very little or not at all.

*Large number of alternative services

And at peak times there will also be the Northern services serving Stalybridge - Huddersfield inclusive.

Bearing this in mind, will it really be full as a 3 car service?

I think most people travelling from Piccadilly to Leeds will continue to take the first departure, regardless of whether it is a "fast" via Oxford Road, the Ordsall Chord and Victoria, or a semi-fast via Guide Bridge. Likewise travellers from Leeds to Piccadilly.

Piccadilly, not Victoria, will still be Manchester's main hub and the fasts will not be able to overtake the semi-fasts. So I think the semi-fasts will carry a lot of end to end passengers. Travellers between Piccadilly and Selby/Hull will certainly not change at Leeds.

The TPE franchise agreement does not require the semi-fasts to stop at Guide Bridge.

 

[fowler9]

Whilst I think that the 185's are well built units I don't think they were ever fit for purpose.

 

[hibtastic]

If people work in the area around Piccadilly (and a lot do) they are still going to catch the semi fasts from there rather than hike across to Victoria - add to that the Piccadilly trains will now also carry passengers to the smaller stations between Manchester and Leeds, it's not hard to see why these services should all be 6-cars.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Plus your all overlooking TPEs seamingly endless abilitty to vastly oversubscribe trains with cheep advances, a practice which will doubtless continue.

Is the refurb in traffic yet? We were told this week and given that its now Friday I was just wondering.