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GB Railfreight in 'locomotive acquisition' talks

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tjlrailblue

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are stadler in the heavy freight loco market or likely to be in the future? have they taken on making the euro 4000s?

just wondering if they could have anything new to offer the uk loco market given the experience built up through 68 and 88 build
 
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NSWGR 3827

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I was trying to figure out what the oldest locomotive was that was mechanically related to the 59s, and there's my answer: I knew it was going to make the 59s seem like modern traction!

The GP60/SD60 would appear the oldest with the same family of engine as the 66, and those are from 1985, and still going strong.

I'd be wholly unsurprised if the 66s see over 50 years in service.

Down Under there is some EMD locomotives built in 1951 whos engine is a direct ancestor to what is in a SD40/SD60/UK66 still in daily service, and will still be running for a lot of years yet.
 

CosherB

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hwl

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Oh yes!

http://www.stadlerrail.com/en/products/



No, unless they can find a way of making a '68 Mk2' that complies with the current emissions legislation.

Stadler also make the fabricated bogies (rather than cast as on older EMD locos including 59s and 66s) for the recent SD70s (2015+) and Stadler have a partnership for with CAT / PRS / EMD for US passenger locomotives. CAT supply the engines to Stadler for their locomotives and EMD have had a partnership with Stadler Spain's predecessors than also included engines and traction equipment etc. for more than 50 + years (e.g. Class 67s)
 

BR60062

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The emissions point raised by NajaB aside, the 70s may well be as good in terms of specs and (if available) may well be being considered as an option. However, I suspect obtaining (say) 6-12 Class 60s from DB (either leased or purchased) and fixing them up with the help of long-term partner Wabtec Brush (who would no doubt do GBRf a good price) would be significantly cheaper per loco than the cost of a short-run order of new builds.
That could be a viable option if GBRF are looking for extra locomotives on the cheap. However this has me thinking about the emissions of the power unit as I am curious to know if something like the MTU 12V4000 would fit inside a Class 60's hull? From what I have been looking up on google (not the best for reliability) is that the Mirrlees Blackstone MB275 is whopping 20 tons in weight. But yet according to the MTU website. The 12V4000 diesel engine weighs in at a nice lightweight 7.7 tonnes.

So would it be better for Brush to refit any Class 60's they buy/lease from DBC with MTU units to take advantage of the lower emissions and also making the Class 60 12.3 tonnes lighter in the process that would mean less fuel consumption?

Just some food for thought :).
 

ac6000cw

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That could be a viable option if GBRF are looking for extra locomotives on the cheap. However this has me thinking about the emissions of the power unit as I am curious to know if something like the MTU 12V4000 would fit inside a Class 60's hull? From what I have been looking up on google (not the best for reliability) is that the Mirrlees Blackstone MB275 is whopping 20 tons in weight. But yet according to the MTU website. The 12V4000 diesel engine weighs in at a nice lightweight 7.7 tonnes.

So would it be better for Brush to refit any Class 60's they buy/lease from DBC with MTU units to take advantage of the lower emissions and also making the Class 60 12.3 tonnes lighter in the process that would mean less fuel consumption?

Just some food for thought :).

Apart from the cost of doing it, making a heavy-haul freight loco lighter is bad news - the weight is an important factor in the amount of low-speed tractive effort it can generate.

(It's why some of those brawny American diesel locos mentioned up-thread weigh nearly 200 tonnes on 6 axles).
 
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hwl

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That could be a viable option if GBRF are looking for extra locomotives on the cheap. However this has me thinking about the emissions of the power unit as I am curious to know if something like the MTU 12V4000 would fit inside a Class 60's hull? From what I have been looking up on google (not the best for reliability) is that the Mirrlees Blackstone MB275 is whopping 20 tons in weight. But yet according to the MTU website. The 12V4000 diesel engine weighs in at a nice lightweight 7.7 tonnes.

So would it be better for Brush to refit any Class 60's they buy/lease from DBC with MTU units to take advantage of the lower emissions and also making the Class 60 12.3 tonnes lighter in the process that would mean less fuel consumption?

Just some food for thought :).

Buy 20 end up with 10+ and get ABB to supply some new AC motors and inverters and control electronics (as per 68s and 88s so known to work and with excellent tractive effort).
 

BR60062

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Buy 20 end up with 10+ and get ABB to supply some new AC motors and inverters and control electronics (as per 68s and 88s so known to work and with excellent tractive effort).
Why not. Its a good way to grab a few good strong locomotives on the cheap. Considering some of the older Class 60's are only about 28 years old and there is some 50-55 year old locomotives still soldiering on along the mainline (Class 37, Class 47 et all). I do like the idea of the ABB supplying new AC traction motors, controls and inverters as didn't VivaRail install new control consoles into the WIP Class 230 DEMU's? ;).
 

43096

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That could be a viable option if GBRF are looking for extra locomotives on the cheap. However this has me thinking about the emissions of the power unit as I am curious to know if something like the MTU 12V4000 would fit inside a Class 60's hull? From what I have been looking up on google (not the best for reliability) is that the Mirrlees Blackstone MB275 is whopping 20 tons in weight. But yet according to the MTU website. The 12V4000 diesel engine weighs in at a nice lightweight 7.7 tonnes.

So would it be better for Brush to refit any Class 60's they buy/lease from DBC with MTU units to take advantage of the lower emissions and also making the Class 60 12.3 tonnes lighter in the process that would mean less fuel consumption?

Just some food for thought :).
You wouldn't use the 12V4000 - probably the 16V4000 - as the V12 would be somewhat lacking in horsepower.

Although personally I'd rather they used the 18VP185 or the same CAT as the 68s. That would give a lift in horsepower to match the Class 70's performance.
 

TimboM

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Some interesting/good ideas, but I'd have thought any buy/hire DB 60s strategy for GBRf would involve getting their hands on ones in the best condition (if DB will allow) and using what's already in them, which let's face it isn't a bad engine.

I'd be a little surprised (but not totally!) if they were looking to get their hands on 60s to then re-build/re-engine them.
 

Spekejunction

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Have read previous posts advocating use of existing class 60 locos rebuilt with new diesels and controls.
The class 60 was built with a slow speed diesel and any medium or high speed diesel will need a reduction gearbox interposed between Diesel engine and existing alternator or a new matching alternator.
Strait rebuild with existing equipment is probably the only option.
New build is by far the best way forward .
 

TimboM

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Have read previous posts advocating use of existing class 60 locos rebuilt with new diesels and controls.
The class 60 was built with a slow speed diesel and any medium or high speed diesel will need a reduction gearbox interposed between Diesel engine and existing alternator or a new matching alternator.
Strait rebuild with existing equipment is probably the only option.
New build is by far the best way forward .

Best, but possibly/probably not the most cost effective in the shorter/medium term.

Assuming heavy-haul locos are what they're needing the 'wheel' / Class 60 doesn't need reinventing. There's 75 Class 60s sitting in DB's yards doing nothing but rusting away. The only real question for me is how many are in a decent enough state to get back on the rails again with an economically viable amount of effort.

I suspect GBRf/Brush will have learnt a lot from their experiences with the 92s - i.e. it can be done, but a quick overhaul of something stored for many years is unlikely to give the desired results.
 

Far north 37

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Have read previous posts advocating use of existing class 60 locos rebuilt with new diesels and controls.
The class 60 was built with a slow speed diesel and any medium or high speed diesel will need a reduction gearbox interposed between Diesel engine and existing alternator or a new matching alternator.
Strait rebuild with existing equipment is probably the only option.
New build is by far the best way forward .

a new locomotive build that is emission compliant and able to run within uk gauge is a major design project which take too much time and money.

which with gb only looking for a smallish fleet of locos would not be worth the time and money when theres a far easier option like getting more class 60s overhauled
 

ac6000cw

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I suspect GBRf/Brush will have learnt a lot from their experiences with the 92s - i.e. it can be done, but a quick overhaul of something stored for many years is unlikely to give the desired results.

...and the 60 (diesel engine aside) is all-Brush, rather than the Brush-ABB 92s, which might make things easier (and the electronics should be rather less complex).

Purely for a bit of fun :D, how about an AC-drive 60 re-build plus a job lot of redundant Mk3s as a crowd-buster, Indian style - https://youtu.be/lyZ1l7mNum0?t=89 (from 1:29 onwards). The WDG4 (GT46MAC) is an Indian version of an SD70MAC, and that's an 18 carriage train it's accelerating... (Watching the video from the beginning is only advisable for fully paid up members of the 'clag' club ;))
 

TimboM

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...and the 60 (diesel engine aside) is all-Brush, rather than the Brush-ABB 92s, which might make things easier (and the electronics should be rather less complex).

Purely for a bit of fun :D, how about an AC-drive 60 re-build plus a job lot of redundant Mk3s as a crowd-buster, Indian style - https://youtu.be/lyZ1l7mNum0?t=89 (from 1:29 onwards). The WDG4 (GT46MAC) is an Indian version of an SD70MAC, and that's an 18 carriage train it's accelerating... (Watching the video from the beginning is only advisable for fully paid up members of the 'clag' club ;))

That's some acceleration!! Reckon you'd get similar out of a 92 on the beds but we seem to be concerned by something called "passenger comfort" more in the UK... :roll:

Better cease talk of modified 60s for passenger use as tends to result in folk frothing at the mouth (either in excitement or rage)...!
 
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dubscottie

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Apart from the cost of doing it, making a heavy-haul freight loco lighter is bad news - the weight is an important factor in the amount of low-speed tractive effort it can generate.

(It's why some of those brawny American diesel locos mentioned up-thread weigh nearly 200 tonnes on 6 axles).

One problem with making a loco lighter is it will sit high on its bogies and start hitting bridges.

If they re-engined a 60 it would major work done on the bogies or the would ballast it up to the original weight as they did with the 57's.
 

BR60062

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Apart from the cost of doing it, making a heavy-haul freight loco lighter is bad news - the weight is an important factor in the amount of low-speed tractive effort it can generate.

(It's why some of those brawny American diesel locos mentioned up-thread weigh nearly 200 tonnes on 6 axles).
Point taken mate. I was thinking more of economics than the adverse effects of the weight reduction. Also if and only is a lighter more compact power unit was used. Providing that space is available, steel ballast blocks could be added to the locomotive to "fatten" it up to the original weight? ;).

You wouldn't use the 12V4000 - probably the 16V4000 - as the V12 would be somewhat lacking in horsepower.

Although personally I'd rather they used the 18VP185 or the same CAT as the 68s. That would give a lift in horsepower to match the Class 70's performance.
I would have gone for the VP185 option no problem but I went for the V12 MTU to lower fuel consumption more than anything here mate. But I get you :).

Some interesting/good ideas, but I'd have thought any buy/hire DB 60s strategy for GBRf would involve getting their hands on ones in the best condition (if DB will allow) and using what's already in them, which let's face it isn't a bad engine.

I'd be a little surprised (but not totally!) if they were looking to get their hands on 60s to then re-build/re-engine them.
I think that re-powering them or removing and rebuilding the power unit from the engine core upwards would maximise reliability for the FOC and would give a great return on the investment that GBRF et all would cough up for the locomotives.

Have read previous posts advocating use of existing class 60 locos rebuilt with new diesels and controls.
The class 60 was built with a slow speed diesel and any medium or high speed diesel will need a reduction gearbox interposed between Diesel engine and existing alternator or a new matching alternator.
Strait rebuild with existing equipment is probably the only option.
New build is by far the best way forward .
I know it will cost a pretty penny to overhaul/rebuild the Class 60's to the standard of the new locomotive and if what Brush/Wabtec have done with the 92's is anything to go by. If Brush/Wabtec implemented this with the Class 60's that DBC no long want or need. It would still be cheaper than buying a new fleet of locomotives from scratch. Not to mention that if the 18v VP185 or the 16v MTU V4000 was used. It would be a boss against the Class 70 and rebuilding the Class 60's would be quicker and cheaper than paying more and waiting longer for a new fleet of locomotives :).

Best, but possibly/probably not the most cost effective in the shorter/medium term.

Assuming heavy-haul locos are what they're needing the 'wheel' / Class 60 doesn't need reinventing. There's 75 Class 60s sitting in DB's yards doing nothing but rusting away. The only real question for me is how many are in a decent enough state to get back on the rails again with an economically viable amount of effort.

I suspect GBRf/Brush will have learnt a lot from their experiences with the 92s - i.e. it can be done, but a quick overhaul of something stored for many years is unlikely to give the desired results.
Taking into account that 34 (Colas/DBC) active and standby Class 60's are in the usable fleets. The other 66 of them could be bought by Brush/Wabtec as this would allow Brush to strip down the "dogged" ones (60006/60081/60064/60070/60098 being the worst of them all) for parts that would be stripped off those and then recondition the needed parts for the overhauls of the other ones are deemed fit for purpose/overhaul. Brush/Wabtec could use a couple of them to test out the new traction equipment and cab controls etc. Perhaps restyle the cab roofs with the horns split behind two grills with a central upper headlight like you get on the Class 92's as small alterations like that would modernise their looks in the process. I won't deny that a fair amount of work is needed as some of the Class 60's have been out in the open at Toton for over 10 years from the days of EWS that neglected them sadly. So there could be some that will not make it back. But the better ones have a good chance of another crack back on the tracks ;).

a new locomotive build that is emission compliant and able to run within uk gauge is a major design project which take too much time and money.

which with gb only looking for a smallish fleet of locos would not be worth the time and money when theres a far easier option like getting more class 60s overhauled
I totally agree with you on that buddy and most of the core parts are already there in regards the stored disused Class 60's waiting to be worked on :).

...and the 60 (diesel engine aside) is all-Brush, rather than the Brush-ABB 92s, which might make things easier (and the electronics should be rather less complex).

Purely for a bit of fun :D, how about an AC-drive 60 re-build plus a job lot of redundant Mk3s as a crowd-buster, Indian style - https://youtu.be/lyZ1l7mNum0?t=89 (from 1:29 onwards). The WDG4 (GT46MAC) is an Indian version of an SD70MAC, and that's an 18 carriage train it's accelerating... (Watching the video from the beginning is only advisable for fully paid up members of the 'clag' club ;))
As much as I would love to see a Class 60 haul a rake of Mk3's with a Mk3 DVT on the other end (I've done this in model form haha!). Sadly the Class 60's have no HEP or "Push-Pull" capability. Because if they did and I had pots of money. I would buy 60008, rebuild it and shove a VP185 in that sucker and buy a Mk3 rake with a DVT purely for seaside charters (Kings X to Skegness anyone?) ;). But on a serious note. I think I would prefer to see a Class 60 flexing its muscles on a heavy oil/coal/stone/granite train like 60091 did when it was revving its guts out through Barnetby on the 7th of July in the blazing heat with the cooling fans roaring!

That's some acceleration!! Reckon you'd get similar out of a 92 on the beds but we seem to be concerned by something called "passenger comfort" more in the UK... :roll:

Better cease talk of modified 60s for passenger use as tends to result in folk frothing at the mouth (either in excitement or rage)...!
Sadly the weaknesses of the Class 60's is that there is no HEP, push-pull equipment and only a top whack of 60mph would only allow them for passenger railtours only. Especially as there would be no heating in winter :(. Although I use a Hornby Class 60 with a rake of ATW Mk3's with DVT all the time in OO gauge ;).
 

GB

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One problem with making a loco lighter is it will sit high on its bogies and start hitting bridges.

If they re-engined a 60 it would major work done on the bogies or the would ballast it up to the original weight as they did with the 57's.

The difference in height between a fully loaded wagon (80-120t GLW) and a empty wagon (circa 20t tare) is negligible at best. Making a loco 20 tonnes lighter will make pretty much zero difference to its height. Certainly nothing that will cause it to start hitting bridges.

And as mentioned above, IF it did they would change the suspension components.
 

43096

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The difference in height between a fully loaded wagon (80-120t GLW) and a empty wagon (circa 20t tare) is negligible at best. Making a loco 20 tonnes lighter will make pretty much zero difference to its height. Certainly nothing that will cause it to start hitting bridges.

But that is what wagons are designed for. A loco is not designed to have that variety of weight. For example, an HST power cannot be moved on the network if it has no power unit, it has to go by road.

Yes, you can adjust the loco for lower weight, but as stated above is probably not sensible with a heavy haul loco. There is also additional cost in clearing the locos post modification.
 

CosherB

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I really don't get why folks on here think that a new engine is needed in the 60s - it really isn't necessary! The cost would be horrendously prohibitive, and even so, no-one has yet been able to say with certainty that a Tier IIIB engine can be sourced and made to fit, along with all the emissions gubbins, in a UK-gauge loco body.

Just 'Super 60' some more 60s!!!!
 

richieb1971

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Unless some TOC wants to unload some of their valuable assets the 60's seem the only choice given that GBRf want the same kind of reliability factor the 66's give them.
 

Andrew1395

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What about 70's? Are all stocks depleted now?

My preference is either the 56's at Leicester or the 60's at Toton to come back into service.

Remember we have a whole fleet of 58's in Spain and France doing nothing. If bulk buying is a consideration I'm sure you'd get value for money there.

My bet is that GBRf want more 66's though. Just makes sense to keep the fleet the same.

56,58 and 60s - like a private hire car firm winning new contractors and scouring the land for Austin Maxis, Morris Marinas and Rover 3500s to operate them with. No doubt there is life still in them, and the suppliers of oil will be delighted to see more of those last three BR classics back in service.
 

richieb1971

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My original quote is kinda funny looking back. It just goes to show that with freight being privatized that each TOC only wants as many locos as it can use with a couple to spare. Back in BR days Leicester had more parked locos than most of the depots of today do, and thats saying something considering how small Leicester is.

It seems with the way things are set up, those 60's will taken by someone eventually if the freight sector picks up.

I see Colas are putting 70's on 6E38 now, and there is also a Colas cement from Scotland coming down the MML in recent days during the mornings also using a 70. Not sure what is happening to Colas 60's, perhaps they are all working other duties.
 

furnessvale

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My original quote is kinda funny looking back. It just goes to show that with freight being privatized that each TOC only wants as many locos as it can use with a couple to spare. Back in BR days Leicester had more parked locos than most of the depots of today do, and thats saying something considering how small Leicester is.

It seems with the way things are set up, those 60's will taken by someone eventually if the freight sector picks up.

I see Colas are putting 70's on 6E38 now, and there is also a Colas cement from Scotland coming down the MML in recent days during the mornings also using a 70. Not sure what is happening to Colas 60's, perhaps they are all working other duties.

Given the willingness of BR to throw away traffic at the drop of a hat, I am not in the least surprised by that statement.
 

CosherB

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My original quote is kinda funny looking back. It just goes to show that with freight being privatized that each TOC only wants as many locos as it can use with a couple to spare. Back in BR days Leicester had more parked locos than most of the depots of today do, and thats saying something considering how small Leicester is.

It seems with the way things are set up, those 60's will taken by someone eventually if the freight sector picks up.

I see Colas are putting 70's on 6E38 now, and there is also a Colas cement from Scotland coming down the MML in recent days during the mornings also using a 70. Not sure what is happening to Colas 60's, perhaps they are all working other duties.

If DBC release them.
 

BR60062

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If DBC release them.
Correct me if I am wrong here. But isn't DBC under German law supposed to sell off any excess assets they are not using/intend to use? I could be wrong though :).

As a sidenote though, there was a fair few locomotives parked up in the comound north of Leicester station as I saw a few Class 37's and a lot of Class 56's including some rough looking wagons on my last trip through there :).
 

CosherB

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Correct me if I am wrong here. But isn't DBC under German law supposed to sell off any excess assets they are not using/intend to use? I could be wrong though :).

As a sidenote though, there was a fair few locomotives parked up in the comound north of Leicester station as I saw a few Class 37's and a lot of Class 56's including some rough looking wagons on my last trip through there :).

Since when did German law apply in the UK?
 

BR60062

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Since when did German law apply in the UK?
Well DB is a German company so both laws would apply to that company, plus other countries that DB operates in? :P. The same would be if a British company had its main base in the UK and operated remotely in Germany etc. Surely I would thought that you would have/should have known that already mate ;).

Besides its not just UK law to take into account. There is the EU law that still applies until 2019 at the earliest until Brexit is fulfilled to my estimate anyway.

Back on topic. If Britain follows America's path and reopens some of those coal power stations for starters. I think we can look forward to seeing an increase in bulk railfreight in the not too distant future and that could utilise the extra Class 60's in the process.
 
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