GB Railfreight in 'locomotive acquisition' talks

[Bungle965]

I believe there are lots of class 67s with no work at the moment.....

But which contracts are suitable for 67s?
I suspect not many.
Sam

 

[CosherB]

I believe there are lots of class 67s with no work at the moment.....

And .....?

 

[richieb1971]

Isn't it about now where prototypes for replacing 66's should be done? And if so wouldn't it be a consideration to make a loco with dynamic gearing that would allow a swap between 60mph heavy haul and 75mph intermodal operation?

 

[tjlrailblue]

Hector Rail livery is quite good I think. It's a shame GBRF don't adopt that livery even if they are keeping their own name.

At what point in the future might some of the big loco manufacturers world-wide offer a British loading gauge and specification diesel loco again? Maybe in ten years, or whenever planning for a large number to replace 66s starts? Or before that? For small orders it's probably not going to be attractive.

 

[Jonny]

i cant see any of the aggregates companies or db cargo ever selling any more 59s on especially when theres no replacement heavy freight loco of any kind available to replace and why would they think they been the most reliable locos on the uk since the 80s now.
especially with aggregate buisness growing all the time i imagine there gutted at getting rid of the one they already did.

I thought that the Class 70s were as good in terms of specs. That's assuming that they are still available for new-build.

 

[najaB]

I thought that the Class 70s were as good in terms of specs. That's assuming that they are still available for new-build.

I thought the 70s no longer meet emissions regs?

 

[GB]

Hector Rail livery is quite good I think. It's a shame GBRF don't adopt that livery even if they are keeping their own name.

They don't want to adopt another livery as they wan't to maintain brand identity. Thats why except for one off or special customer liveries GBRF have pretty much maintained the same livery from day one.

 

[CosherB]

Hector Rail livery is quite good I think. It's a shame GBRF don't adopt that livery even if they are keeping their own name.

At what point in the future might some of the big loco manufacturers world-wide offer a British loading gauge and specification diesel loco again? Maybe in ten years, or whenever planning for a large number to replace 66s starts? Or before that? For small orders it's probably not going to be attractive.

Why would GBRf, as a UK-based entity, go to the trouble and expense of rebranding themselves when they already have such a distinct image? What would the Hector Rail brand bring to the UK market?

Would you do it if it was your money?

 

[CosherB]

I suspect it is. Looking at it, they may also be able to "convert" just by repainting the cab-sides and squaring it off just to the other side of the door, should they want to do it 'on the cheap' across the rest of the fleet. That said, GBRf tend to do a decent job of their liveries (unlike some FOCs...!)

Well this is the 'proper' way of doing it!

66775 repaint at Arlington Not mine.

 

[tjlrailblue]

I never said it would be a good use of money just that I liked hector rail livery

 

[BlythPower]

How much use are Colas making of their 60s nowadays..? :?

 

[TimboM]

Well this is the 'proper' way of doing it!

66775 repaint at Arlington Not mine.

Now that definitely is a 'proper job'. None of this putting a sticker on a defunct old livery and thinking it counts

 

[TimboM]

How much use are Colas making of their 60s nowadays..? :?

Plenty of use it would seem - and on the heavy-haul type workings they're suited to (and 66s aren't so much), e.g. cement/bitumen/oil tanks; logs and ballast trains and other heavy engineering trains.

A snap shot from the past couple of weeks (below) suggest the majority of their 10x 60s are in active/regular use at the moment (and more so than the 5x Colas 66s by the looks of it).

I expect GBRf will be looking at loco acquisition options (both numbers and types) in line with work they either have or are expecting to have/win.

60002 - Oxwellmains - Aberdeen/Inverness workings (cement trains)
60021 - ditto (most recent working I can see = 13th)
60026 - has been on Carlisle-Chirk logs, then been working engineers trains between Mossend/Carlisle/Longforgan, apparently back on the logs this week.
60047 - recently been in Toton for an exam (DB do these under contract). Worked a ballast train + 70 DIT Bescott to Westbury Yard on 11th. Been in Westbury Yard since (shunting 70s and 66s around by the looks of it).
60056 - went to Toton last week (presumably for an exam etc.) - before that was working Dalston/Grangemouth Oil tanks
60076 - currently on Lindsey Oil/Ribble Rail bitumen workings + on ballast train over weekend
60085 - also on the Oxwellmains - Aberdeen/Inverness cement workings
60087 - a little less busy recently and mostly stabled at Barnetby Up Sidings but had a couple of stints on the Lindsey Oil bitumen working during last couple of weeks
60095 - on Dalston/Grangemouth Oil tanks workings
60096 - as per 60087

 

[Far north 37]

I thought that the Class 70s were as good in terms of specs. That's assuming that they are still available for new-build.

i think freightliner had a lot of problems recently if i remember

 

[CosherB]

i think freightliner had a lot of problems recently if i remember

I think you've got it back to front. FL did indeed have a lot of problems with the 70s when they were introduced, notably gaining a reputation for setting themselves on fire! They were subject to various technical modifications in 2014 to update them with the engineering revisions that were already included in the design of the Colas 70/8 locos. The changes, such as a new cooling arrangement, took away the majority of the teething problems experienced.

FL has more recently had seven 70s parked up awaiting their turn for maintenance. I also seem to remember that I've read somewhere that the FL 70s do need further modifications, but I thought that was to align them (again) with the Colas 70/8 locos after their changes needed after the runaway and derailment of 70804.

 

[TimboM]

I thought that the Class 70s were as good in terms of specs. That's assuming that they are still available for new-build.

The emissions point raised by NajaB aside, the 70s may well be as good in terms of specs and (if available) may well be being considered as an option. However, I suspect obtaining (say) 6-12 Class 60s from DB (either leased or purchased) and fixing them up with the help of long-term partner Wabtec Brush (who would no doubt do GBRf a good price) would be significantly cheaper per loco than the cost of a short-run order of new builds.

 

[ac6000cw]

At what point in the future might some of the big loco manufacturers world-wide offer a British loading gauge and specification diesel loco again? Maybe in ten years, or whenever planning for a large number to replace 66s starts? Or before that? For small orders it's probably not going to be attractive.

Quite possibly never - I'd put more money on most new locos coming from Valencia in dribs and drabs, as and when the business demands it. That might be combined possibly with some re-engining/re-building of 66s if being seen to be as 'green' as possible by customers becomes a saleable commodity i.e. helps get/keep the business (or emissions regs changing to affect 'grandfathered' engines as well as new ones).

 

[CosherB]

Quite possibly never - I'd put more money on most new locos coming from Valencia in dribs and drabs, as and when the business demands it. That might be combined possibly with some re-engining/re-building of 66s if being seen to be as 'green' as possible by customers becomes a saleable commodity i.e. helps get/keep the business (or emissions regs changing to affect 'grandfathered' engines as well as new ones).

Indeed. Quite what the rail industry will look like in 25 years time, when I assume the 66s will be due for replacement, is anyones guess. Some may get engine upgrades before then (assuming an engine can be found to fit with all of the necessary emissions equipment!), but those schemes won't be taxing anyone for a good few years yet.

 

[TimboM]

Indeed. Quite what the rail industry will look like in 25 years time, when I assume the 66s will be due for replacement, is anyones guess. Some may get engine upgrades before then (assuming an engine can be found to fit with all of the necessary emissions equipment!), but those schemes won't be taxing anyone for a good few years yet.

...and in the meantime a medium-term "stop-gap" replacement is required - with the rows of Class 60s not doing a lot at Toton and Crewe (or at least the salvageable ones) appearing to be a good bet.

 

[furnessvale]

Indeed. Quite what the rail industry will look like in 25 years time, when I assume the 66s will be due for replacement, is anyones guess. Some may get engine upgrades before then (assuming an engine can be found to fit with all of the necessary emissions equipment!), but those schemes won't be taxing anyone for a good few years yet.

Who knows, by then sense may have prevailed and emissions across ALL transport modes judged on a grams per tonne/km moved basis, which would shift the focus on emissions to where it should be, i.e., roads.

 

[gsnedders]

Hector Rail livery is quite good I think. It's a shame GBRF don't adopt that livery even if they are keeping their own name.

At what point in the future might some of the big loco manufacturers world-wide offer a British loading gauge and specification diesel loco again? Maybe in ten years, or whenever planning for a large number to replace 66s starts? Or before that? For small orders it's probably not going to be attractive.

It's probably worth pointing out that the 59s are still going strong, despite being 32 years old, and I'm unaware of them having much of the way of reliability problems so far.

That said, I imagine the 59 replacement may well see the start of the 66 replacement (esp. the 66/6).

 

[hwl]

It's probably worth pointing out that the 59s are still going strong, despite being 32 years old, and I'm unaware of them having much of the way of reliability problems so far.

That said, I imagine the 59 replacement may well see the start of the 66 replacement (esp. the 66/6).

Lots of GP40s and SD40s still happily operating in the US with the same 645E3 family engine that has been in service since 1965...

 

[Tim R-T-C]

They don't want to adopt another livery as they wan't to maintain brand identity. Thats why except for one off or special customer liveries GBRF have pretty much maintained the same livery from day one.

There is a fair difference between the old Blue and White and the new Blue and Orange scheme.

I do wonder how much the FOCs are concerned about their brand image. Still some unbranded Freightliner and DRS locomotives knocking around years after they changed hands and of course EWS liveries going strong long after DB ownership.

I suspect the reason not to go for the the Hector colours is simply they don't want the expense repainting any of their locomotives for no particular advantage.

 

[CosherB]

There is a fair difference between the old Blue and White and the new Blue and Orange scheme.

I do wonder how much the FOCs are concerned about their brand image. Still some unbranded Freightliner and DRS locomotives knocking around years after they changed hands and of course EWS liveries going strong long after DB ownership.

I suspect the reason not to go for the the Hector colours is simply they don't want the expense repainting any of their locomotives for no particular advantage.

Blue and white GBRf livery? If you mean the First incarnation, only a handful were painted as such and few remain.

FOCs tend not to paint their locos until they really need to i.e. every 15 years. DRS of course are an exception as they seemingly have shares in Dulux.

 

[TimboM]

There is a fair difference between the old Blue and White and the new Blue and Orange scheme.

I do wonder how much the FOCs are concerned about their brand image. Still some unbranded Freightliner and DRS locomotives knocking around years after they changed hands and of course EWS liveries going strong long after DB ownership.

Maybe a coincidence but the FOCs who do appear concerned about their brand image - and keeping their fleets in good order (both visually and mechanically) - appear to have better fortunes/prospects now than the FOC(s) who don't...

 

[ac6000cw]

It's probably worth pointing out that the 59s are still going strong, despite being 32 years old, and I'm unaware of them having much of the way of reliability problems so far.

I wouldn't expect them to have (with proper maintenance) - the 59 is basically an American SD40-2 squeezed into our loading gauge (with an extra cab).

EMD built very nearly 4000 of the original from 1972 onwards, and even the big railroads are still doing rebuilds to keep them in service for while longer. The SD40 is a prime contender for the title of the best EMD loco in history. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see quite a few reach their 60th birthday. Bulletproof workhorses, basically (provided you can live with the fuel consumption when working them hard).

 

[gsnedders]

Lots of GP40s and SD40s still happily operating in the US with the same 645E3 family engine that has been in service since 1965...

I was trying to figure out what the oldest locomotive was that was mechanically related to the 59s, and there's my answer: I knew it was going to make the 59s seem like modern traction!

The GP60/SD60 would appear the oldest with the same family of engine as the 66, and those are from 1985, and still going strong.

I'd be wholly unsurprised if the 66s see over 50 years in service.

 

[hwl]

I was trying to figure out what the oldest locomotive was that was mechanically related to the 59s, and there's my answer: I knew it was going to make the 59s seem like modern traction!

The GP60/SD60 would appear the oldest with the same family of engine as the 66, and those are from 1985, and still going strong.

I'd be wholly unsurprised if the 66s see over 50 years in service.

Some of that depends on EMD's future with no orders in the pipeline currently.

I'd expect some 66s to get a Mitsubishi traction conversion (same motors and inverters as recent EMD SD70-ACe-P6) which should improve tractive effort and wheelslip issues significantly and solve some of the heavy haul issues in the UK

 

[ac6000cw]

Some of that depends on EMD's future with no orders in the pipeline currently.

I'd expect some 66s to get a Mitsubishi traction conversion (same motors and inverters as recent EMD SD70-ACe-P6) which should improve tractive effort and wheelslip issues significantly and solve some of the heavy haul issues in the UK

EMD as in 'Electro-Motive Diesel Inc' definitely hasn't got a future - it's now officially 'Progress Rail Locomotive Inc' but they are keeping the 'EMD' brand name for the products. As for future of the ex-EMD part of Progress Rail - I think they'll be OK, the rebuild work/supply of parts for rebuilds in the US should keep them going until the new-build orders pick up (BNSF has taken the first steps in re-building their very large SD70MAC fleet with SD70ACe equivalent inverters and controls for starters - and there's always the prospect of re-tractioning UPs huge fleet of DC-drive SD70s if they could get UP interested...). It's also not in the railroads future interest to let GE completely dominate the US market by not keeping another supplier in the game.

As for the 66s - could you fit 6 inverters into the body? (maybe an inverter per bogie might fit, in historical EMD style?)

 

[hwl]

EMD as in 'Electro-Motive Diesel Inc' definitely hasn't got a future - it's now officially 'Progress Rail Locomotive Inc' but they are keeping the 'EMD' brand name for the products. As for future of the ex-EMD part of Progress Rail - I think they'll be OK, the rebuild work/supply of parts for rebuilds in the US should keep them going until the new-build orders pick up (BNSF has taken the first steps in re-building their very large SD70MAC fleet with SD70ACe equivalent inverters and controls for starters - and there's always the prospect of re-tractioning UPs huge fleet of DC-drive SD70s if they could get UP interested...). It's also not in the railroads future interest to let GE completely dominate the US market by not keeping another supplier in the game.

As for the 66s - could you fit 6 inverters into the body? (maybe an inverter per bogie might fit, in historical EMD style?)

I used EMD because most readers probably wouldn't be aware of the CAT purchase and rebranding machinations and the sub-par PRS management in the early years post take over. (I was involved with the financial advisers on the CAT - EMD deal).
Agree on the Class 1s not wanting a single supplier in GE but there are other options (It is worth remembering that the Bombardier Mexico plant has build more SD70s than any other factory.)
The benefit of 1 inverter per bogie is far less than 1 per axle which undermines the point of the upgrade some what. The inverter size isn't the biggest issue as on the SD70s (or GE's ES44s or ET44s) they are take up the space where the walkway would be on the left side behind the cab and there isn't much difference in space taken between 2 large or 6 smaller inverters. Norfolk Southern are also doing AC conversions on SD70 and older DC GE locos.

There are also many more 3rd party parts options for EMD than GE hence the 3rd party suppliers (Wabtec the biggest as both OEM parts and unofficially alternative parts supplier) could keep EMD locos going for decades even if CAT gave up on it.