Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[jopsuk]

I see a union the membership of which have decided that they're paid quite comfortably and so can't be easily paid off for a major change in their conditions. Bravo!

 

[Mintona]

But AlterEgo said offering them more money would solve the dispute, surely he can't have been wrong? Surely it's not the case that the dispute is genuinely about keeping the travelling public safe?

 

[TEW]

I was only suggesting it may be better for the union to wait and see what's actually proposed,not rush into a strike ballot perhaps only on the basis that the company won't promise full door control to every guard for the entire ffranchise period, after all we've been told endlessly it's not all about the doors

There are no mentions of balloting for strike action in that press release from what I can tell. Seems like the RMT are just trying to find out future plans at this stage, First/MTR are being very vague about it. They're just asking in their usual way.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Just looked up the UK income tax bands:

Band Taxable income Tax rate
Personal Allowance Up to £11,500 0%
Basic rate £11,501 to £45,000 20%
Higher rate £45,001 to £150,000 40%
Additional rate over £150,000 45%

For a number of drivers the proposed increase could push them into the higher rate tax band (if they aren't already).

How badly will their Southampton route get affected?

 

[Goldfish62]

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-calls-on-first-mtr-to-give-doo-assurances/
So clearly to prevent these strikes spreading to other TOCs the RMT actually want a lot more than their often publicly reported request of a second safety critical staff member on all trains

So now door release being transferred to the driver is unacceptable even though they've accepted it at other TOCs.

 

[pompeyfan]

All they're asking for is reassure/confirmation that everything remains as it is. They don't want FMTR coming in with a massive sledgehammer and changing everything, I don't think that is unreasonable to be honest.

If your employer was taken over by a rival group would you not like answers that your job role will remain the same?

 

[jopsuk]

Just looked up the UK income tax bands:



For a number of drivers the proposed increase could push them into the higher rate tax band (if they aren't already).

Do you understand how Income Tax works though? The following ignores NI and any allowances:
If you're earning £45,000, you pay:
£0 on the first £11,500
£6700 on the next £33,500 (20%)

If you were to earn £45,001
£0 on the first £11,500
£6700 on the next £33,500 (20%)
£0.40 on the next £1 (40%)

You're still 60p better off from that pay rise. Going into a higher tax band does not leave you worse off, you only pay the higher rate on the amount over. So anyone who turned down a pay rise because they would go into a higher tax rate is economically illiterate.

 

[theironroad]

Do you understand how Income Tax works though? The following ignores NI and any allowances:
If you're earning £45,000, you pay:
£0 on the first £11,500
£6700 on the next £33,500 (20%)

If you were to earn £45,001
£0 on the first £11,500
£6700 on the next £33,500 (20%)
£0.40 on the next £1 (40%)

You're still 60p better off from that pay rise. Going into a higher tax band does not leave you worse off, you only pay the higher rate on the amount over. So anyone who turned down a pay rise because they would go into a higher tax rate is economically illiterate.

I don't think anyone is claiming that you'd be worse off, but for some people they feel the loss of a benefit or term or condition of service that is replaced by higher pay isn't always worth it. Similarly with people doing voluntary overtime, people often feel that they don't want to do a day of overtime when the tax take is 40%, even though they get to keep the 60%

Obviously there are a couple of long term ways to mitigate against paying the higher rate especially when only marginally over the tax band rate.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Just looked up the UK income tax bands:



For a number of drivers the proposed increase could push them into the higher rate tax band (if they aren't already).

How badly will their Southampton route get affected by the overtime ban?

I'm already in the 40% tax bracket, that's partially why I refuse to work rest days & overtime. It doesn't pay enough to compensate me for the 40% tax grab, plus other deductions. The RD rate is basic money, so it works out that you're actually doing a day's work for less than a standard day's pay after deductions, so unless the up to the rate to what it used to be and that's back upto Tx1¼ or Tx1½ at least the answer is go away I'm not interested, not even for 12hrs, find some other mug.

That route to Southampton is an absolute joke, if you remember back in CSC days it went to Bournemouth and that got truncated because they couldn't run it properly then, the same should happen to this Southampton service, because the amount of times it gets cancelled at Havant or Fareham is ridiculous and the amount of delays it causes to SW services is ridiculous too, I'm forever putting in delay reports against them or any SN service that makes me late into Havant.

All this service is, is one that was installed for political dogma reasons and for ORCATs raiding. It's very unreliable and should be withdrawn with a simple same platform connection at Havant.

The pressure will really be on with the new SW franchise, with the introduction of the "semi-fast" service from Portsmouth - Southampton, so SN will really have to raise their game.

 

[Robertj21a]

All they're asking for is reassure/confirmation that everything remains as it is. They don't want FMTR coming in with a massive sledgehammer and changing everything, I don't think that is unreasonable to be honest.

If your employer was taken over by a rival group would you not like answers that your job role will remain the same?

Yes, of course we would all like to be told that the job role will remain the same. However, the vast majority of [non rail] employees across the UK know that companies need to progress, not stagnate just to keep staff happy !

It's the railway culture that's part of the core problem - it often seems that the staff are really determined to only progress at a snail's pace (if at all).

 

[pompeyfan]

Yes, of course we would all like to be told that the job role will remain the same. However, the vast majority of [non rail] employees across the UK know that companies need to progress, not stagnate just to keep staff happy !

It's the railway culture that's part of the core problem - it often seems that the staff are really determined to only progress at a snail's pace (if at all).

But surely you progress by working with the staff to deliver a better product instead of upsetting them in the drive to increase efficiency/profits? Railways could improve significantly if front line staff could use their initiative during disruption, not rely on 1 controller responsible for looking after the entire network, you make the changes higher up the chain, not by getting rid of guards and ticket office / customer ambassador type staff.

 

[Robertj21a]

But surely you progress by working with the staff to deliver a better product instead of upsetting them in the drive to increase efficiency/profits? Railways could improve significantly if front line staff could use their initiative during disruption, not rely on 1 controller responsible for looking after the entire network, you make the changes higher up the chain, not by getting rid of guards and ticket office / customer ambassador type staff.

I would certainly agree that good progress is made much easier if each party respects the other, and works constructively to move the business forward. However, it's also up to the management to manage the business, whether co-operation exists - or not..

 

[Olaf]

For the kind of money being offered recently, there is obviously a business opportunity to train-up drivers and bring them over here on reduced rates as in other industries. If the renumeration does go that high, it will only be a matter of time.

 

[PakRail]

Very refreshing to see the drivers decide do not need a substantial pay increase to the detriment of their T&Cs.

I have heard some of these would have included cutting the hours needed to pass out as a train driver by almost half and not needing to sign any routes. Essentially meaning a driver could be assigned any route whether they are familiar with it or not.

What will Southern do now and where did they find so much money for such a large pay increase...

 

[otomous]

For the kind of money being offered recently, there is obviously a business opportunity to train-up drivers and bring them over here on reduced rates as in other industries. If the renumeration does go that high, it will only be a matter of time.

Can you explain what this means please?

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Don't worry. Daily Mail (fascist) reader.

 

[otomous]

But surely you progress by working with the staff to deliver a better product instead of upsetting them in the drive to increase efficiency/profits? Railways could improve significantly if front line staff could use their initiative during disruption, not rely on 1 controller responsible for looking after the entire network, you make the changes higher up the chain, not by getting rid of guards and ticket office / customer ambassador type staff.

You have to understand the management culture of the railway to understand why front line staff are as they are.

There is reliance on everyone's goodwill but it is rarely remembered when the staff want something in return. Suddenly nobody in management seems capable of making a decision or using their discretion e.g. giving someone the Spanish Inquisition when they have one day sick after three years without taking a day off. They fall back on "that's not company policy". So people start to become less willing to help.

No backup. Front line staff are thrown to the dogs during disruption, expected to confront angry punters without any information. They get abused, spat on and assaulted in the worst cases. The railway leaves them to it and waits to spring if they try to defend themselves against physical attack.

I've known many drivers who would willingly put themselves out to get people home in disruption, but they know if they break a single time reg e.g. taking a shorter break, going a minute over time, and something happens, then they're on their own. So no one risks it for fear of losing their job or even being embroiled in a court case these days.

I've been on the railway for over a decade, and I never see collaboration, only confrontation. The only language that seems to be understood is money. So a prisoner's dilemma has built up - they won't change so we won't change so they won't change etc.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

You have to understand the management culture of the railway to understand why front line staff are as they are.

There is reliance on everyone's goodwill but it is rarely remembered when the staff want something in return. Suddenly nobody in management seems capable of making a decision or using their discretion e.g. giving someone the Spanish Inquisition when they have one day sick after three years without taking a day off. They fall back on "that's not company policy". So people start to become less willing to help.

No backup. Front line staff are thrown to the dogs during disruption, expected to confront angry punters without any information. They get abused, spat on and assaulted in the worst cases. The railway leaves them to it and waits to spring if they try to defend themselves against physical attack.

I've known many drivers who would willingly put themselves out to get people home in disruption, but they know if they break a single time reg e.g. taking a shorter break, going a minute over time, and something happens, then they're on their own. So no one risks it for fear of losing their job or even being embroiled in a court case these days.

I've been on the railway for over a decade, and I never see collaboration, only confrontation. The only language that seems to be understood is money. So a prisoner's dilemma has built up - they won't change so we won't change so they won't change etc.

It's sad when I say that you've hit the proverbial nail squarely on the head.

 

[Robertj21a]

You have to understand the management culture of the railway to understand why front line staff are as they are.

There is reliance on everyone's goodwill but it is rarely remembered when the staff want something in return. Suddenly nobody in management seems capable of making a decision or using their discretion e.g. giving someone the Spanish Inquisition when they have one day sick after three years without taking a day off. They fall back on "that's not company policy". So people start to become less willing to help.

No backup. Front line staff are thrown to the dogs during disruption, expected to confront angry punters without any information. They get abused, spat on and assaulted in the worst cases. The railway leaves them to it and waits to spring if they try to defend themselves against physical attack.

I've known many drivers who would willingly put themselves out to get people home in disruption, but they know if they break a single time reg e.g. taking a shorter break, going a minute over time, and something happens, then they're on their own. So no one risks it for fear of losing their job or even being embroiled in a court case these days.

I've been on the railway for over a decade, and I never see collaboration, only confrontation. The only language that seems to be understood is money. So a prisoner's dilemma has built up - they won't change so we won't change so they won't change etc.

Could it be that management might actually feel exactly the same way ? - they give higher and higher wages etc but still fail to get any co-operation in return ?

 

[ComUtoR]

There is reliance on everyone's goodwill but it is rarely remembered when the staff want something in return. Suddenly nobody in management seems capable of making a decision or using their discretion e.g. giving someone the Spanish Inquisition when they have one day sick after three years without taking a day off. They fall back on "that's not company policy". So people start to become less willing to help.

I went 8 years without a single days sick. Went sick for one day and was told I was up for an 'informal' hearing the day I got back.

That was the first step but I got over it.

A few years ago my Aunt died. I was told that she wasn't considered a close relative and I wouldn't get the day off for her funeral.

However, the vast majority of [non rail] employees across the UK.....

Living the dream on £55k :roll:

 

[ComUtoR]

Could it be that management might actually feel exactly the same way ? - they give higher and higher wages etc but still fail to get any co-operation in return ?

So the more money you pay someone the more you can screw them over ? Does money buy mistreatment and money turn a blind eye to existing terms and conditions ?

I was asked to leave a train on the running line. Purely to save 20 minutes due to a rostering error. Management asked me to break the rule book and compromise safety. Maybe if I asked for 12hrs I would have done it.

High pay doesn't allow an employer to circumvent safety, compromise terms and conditions, allow sharp practice or do whatever they want because they pay you well.

 

[Robertj21a]

So the more money you pay someone the more you can screw them over ? Does money buy mistreatment and money turn a blind eye to existing terms and conditions ?

I was asked to leave a train on the running line. Purely to save 20 minutes due to a rostering error. Management asked me to break the rule book and compromise safety. Maybe if I asked for 12hrs I would have done it.

High pay doesn't allow an employer to circumvent safety, compromise terms and conditions, allow sharp practice or do whatever they want because they pay you well.

Not sure where your rant came from, or why it was needed. It was a simple question that just needed a polite response.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Trust & Respect are earned not bestowed.

You work hard to do all of the training and pass your exams to become a driver and as soon as you do and sign for all of your routes, they're after the key back and you out the door asap.

There's very little trust anymore. PDPs are written by people who've never driven a train before in their lives and yet they expect drivers who have more year's experience on the footplate driving than they've been out of their old man's ball bag to drive like granny's. I find them insulting TBQH.

If you want co operation then, you should leave your employees (especially the experienced one's) to it, don't nanny them, don't interfere, don't pressurize or treat us like kids (that's one very good way to get people's backs up), leave us alone to do the job without the fear of being disciplined for the most trivial & minor of things like going 1 mph over the limit or something stupid.

The more draconian & oppressive the atmosphere at work, means that the pressure on some tells and that makes some people more prone to a mistake which can prove career ending.

Make the job varied (enjoyable), make the environment less oppressive and more relaxed and you'll get more out of people. Unfortunately the modern method of higher management seems to be to get rid of the people who've got the talent to get the best out of people & motivate them and replace them with those who've been on the job 5 minutes in railway terms and who've all of the charm & charisma of Kim Jong-un and then they wonder why people don't do anything for them!

 

[ComUtoR]

Not sure where your rant came from, or why it was needed. It was a simple question that just needed a polite response.

Because money doesn't and shouldn't allow an employer in any industry to do whatever they want or buy any expectation from its employee.

So before you continue to see it as a rant (which it isn't) and criticise. Would you respond to my questions in the same manner ?

Should an employer be allowed to have such an expectation that they can pay an employee high wages in return for favours that are beyond terms and conditions and often compromise the direct rules and regulations ?

I have been asked to make a compromise on many occasions by Management. I have heard Managers state just as you have. We pay you well so shut up and do as your told.

Both my examples are what happens on a regular basis. Not a single job I have had previously takes such an approach with their employees. That doesn't happen to most [non rail] employees around the UK.

Yes I get paid well but omg do I get treated badly.

 

[otomous]

Not sure where your rant came from, or why it was needed. It was a simple question that just needed a polite response.

Struck me as a perfect example of what I was talking about!

 

[HarleyDavidson]

There was a step change with our lot with the introduction of something called B10 and I've been through it a couple of times when I've made faux pas.

I've admitted my mistake and I'll be very honest and say that I've been treated fairly under the B10 process. I've raised my game and changed my driving style slightly and even though I don't follow the PDP rigidly, my line manager has no issues with my driving.

There have been some times when I've been treated absolutely appallingly and it has come back to bite them hard on the bum in a 100% legitimate way, using their own rules. So now I just come in do what I have to do and go home, that's it.

I might do them a favour IF they ask nicely. And that's all I ask, if you want something done, just say "Please" & "Thank you" and you generally find that I'll help you out.

However if they say "You will" the answer is generally a polite version of go swivel.

 

[otomous]

There was a step change with our lot with the introduction of something called B10 and I've been through it a couple of times when I've made faux pas.

I've admitted my mistake and I'll be very honest and say that I've been treated fairly under the B10 process. I've raised my game and changed my driving style slightly and even though I don't follow the PDP rigidly, my line manager has no issues with my driving.

There have been some times when I've been treated absolutely appallingly and it has come back to bite them hard on the bum in a 100% legitimate way, using their own rules. So now I just come in do what I have to do and go home, that's it.

I might do them a favour IF they ask nicely. And that's all I ask, if you want something done, just say "Please" & "Thank you" and you generally find that I'll help you out.

However if they say "You will" the answer is generally a polite version of go swivel.

Exactly. We have issues with Control saying "Oh so you're refusing to do x," when you have just done 7 days on and you don't want to do an attachment becaue you will miss your pass train.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

There was a step change with our lot with the introduction of something called B10 and I've been through it a couple of times when I've made faux pas.

I've admitted my mistake and I'll be very honest and say that I've been treated fairly under the B10 process. I've raised my game and changed my driving style slightly and even though I don't follow the PDP rigidly, my line manager has no issues with my driving.

There have been some times when I've been treated absolutely appallingly and it has come back to bite them hard on the bum in a 100% legitimate way, using their own rules. So now I just come in do what I have to do and go home, that's it.

I might do them a favour IF they ask nicely. And that's all I ask, if you want something done, just say "Please" & "Thank you" and you generally find that I'll help you out.

However if they say "You will" the answer is generally a polite version of go swivel.

Is the "B10 process" some kind of disciplinary procedure?

 

[HarleyDavidson]

It covers all sorts of things.

 

[Bromley boy]

To put that starting salary in to comparison its higher than a pilot serving as the first officer of an aircraft can earn and in to the starting salary of an experienced Captain at a non triple A airline, £57,000 to £78,000.

The Unions have managed to totally divorce skill from the jobs salary expectation. Its twice what a train driver in the US can earn, three times that of an average German, Italian or Dutch train driver, twice that of a French or Spanish driver and one and half times that of the German drivers maximum salary cap.

At the risk of going off topic I must pull you up on this point.

From a quick google search, drivers in the US earn circa $50k (£43k on average). Drivers on the NY subway earn considerably more than this

http://work.chron.com/mta-salary-29105.html

As of 2012, subway train operators working in the U.S. reported average earnings of $27.99 per hour and $58,220 per year, according to the BLS. Wages for MTA train operators ranged from $31 to $32 per hour as of 2012, and the highest-paid MTA train operator made $128,836 in 2012

Some drivers in Australia pull in the equivalent of a cool US$250k

http://www.abc.net.au/news/factchec...pilbara-the-highest-paid-in-the-world/5029012

It's hard to find figures for TGV/SNCF drivers in France but given that Eurostar pay around £65k to U.K. based drivers I can't believe they're that far behind (and of course France is generally a lot more unionised and militant than the UK).

Drivers in Spain may well earn less (although I have no figures), but many other jobs pay less in Spain than their equivalent would in the U.K.

Pilots' earnings are all over the place. There are first officers in the US and other places who earn not a lot more than minimum wage. I know a first officer on a turboprop airliner in the U.K. who earns less (mid £30ks) than the average PA at a certain professional services firm I could name. Both earn more than the average nurse, the average policeman, the average high street solicitor. Which of them is the most skilled?

You don't need a degree to be a train driver. You don't need one to be an airline pilot either. Pay for any particular job varies according to a great many factors., Unionisation is one, but so is responsibility assumed by a particular job, shiftworking, demand and supply (of people who are actually willing and able to do the job) and a whole host of other factors besides.

Regrettably there seems to be a perception on this forum and amongst the public at large that being a train driver is an overpaid, cushy number. I can assure you it's anything but! Things have changed since BR days. Thousands apply for each vacancy, standards are higher and the role is now highly professionalised.

I did 104 station stops today. Each was a potential manslaughter charge and prison sentence if something went wrong and I dragged someone off a platform.

For what it's worth I used to do a professional job which, at my peak, paid quite a lot more than my current train driving job. Admittedly I work far fewer hours now (and therefore probably earn more "per hour"), but I wouldn't for one minute say train driving is any less deserving of the salary it commands than my previous professional role.

In fact, having done the job, I think train drivers are underpaid for the responsibility they assume!