Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[Deepgreen]

I saw an interesting working the other day at Redhill. A Southern working (Reigate and Tonbridge to Victoria) was being worked by a Gatwick Express OBS/guard/conductor in full red uniform. While I know of no particular reason why crews cannot interwork like this, it is the first time I have seen it.

 

[tsr]

I saw an interesting working the other day at Redhill. A Southern working (Reigate and Tonbridge to Victoria) was being worked by a Gatwick Express OBS/guard/conductor in full red uniform. While I know of no particular reason why crews cannot interwork like this, it is the first time I have seen it.

That would be a Gatwick Express OBS* - presumably an ex-Redhill depot conductor who has 377 knowledge, as the others would not.

This is indeed very rare, but does happen occasionally. Sometimes this has been due to planning errors, other times due to short-notice cross-covering between depots.



* GX has never had anyone carrying out the formalised "guard" role under the GTR contract; a few "off the street" OBSs started being employed on these services with the rollout of 387s last year, with the entirety of the Southern conductor depot at Redhill then also transferring to the OBS role on 1 January this year.

 

[Deepgreen]

That would be a Gatwick Express OBS* - presumably an ex-Redhill depot conductor who has 377 knowledge, as the others would not.

This is indeed very rare, but does happen occasionally. Sometimes this has been due to planning errors, other times due to short-notice cross-covering between depots.



* GX has never had anyone carrying out the formalised "guard" role under the GTR contract; a few "off the street" OBSs started being employed on these services with the rollout of 387s last year, with the entirety of the Southern conductor depot at Redhill then also transferring to the OBS role on 1 January this year.

Thanks, TSR - yes, it struck me as exceptional as, apart from anything else, the uniform colour stood out like a sore thumb against the green train!

 

[Minstral25]

Overtime Ban back on from 29th June - Pay and DCO offer rejected.

 

[physics34]

Overtime Ban back on from 29th June - Pay and DCO offer rejected.

ASLEF press release

http://www.aslef.org.uk/page.php?id=217

ASLEF and Southern Rail
Mick Whelan, general secretary of ASLEF, the train drivers’ union, tonight responded to a press release put out by Southern Railways. Mick said:

‘ASLEF suspended the imposition of an overtime ban on Southern Railways – due to start on Sunday 4 June – for two weeks to allow time for negotiations to find a resolution of all the outstanding issues with the company to be discussed. For the record, we have only ever talked to the company about driver only operation, not about driver controlled operation. That is just one of many inaccuracies in the press release the company has issued.

‘We have been talking to the company, over the last fortnight, in parallel, but separate, talks about drivers’ terms and conditions; industrial relations; and pay.

‘The company’s failure to engage over DOO is the reason our members will no longer work overtime – which, of course, is entirely voluntary – from Thursday 29 June. By giving the company another fortnight, we had hoped to avoid industrial action because industrial action is always the last resort; we would much rather talk, and negotiate, around a table, than take industrial action.

‘As for pay, that is now eight months behind schedule – on a deal that should have been done back in 2016 – but which the company has refused, until now, to negotiate with us.

‘I can categorically state that the company spokesman is lying when he says ASLEF asked GTR to package up an extension of DCO with pay. We did not. That is a blatant lie and a deliberate and malicious attempt to mislead the passengers this company has been letting down, every day, since it got its franchise.

‘GTR should stop letting passengers – and staff – down and stop telling falsehoods. Because this is no way to run a railway.

‘This dispute was started by Peter Wilkinson at the Department for Transport – something he frankly admitted at a public meeting in Croydon last year when he said “They can’t afford to spend too long on strike and I will push them into that place.” This is a dispute devised by Peter Wilkinson and the DfT who have caused misery and heartache for hundreds of thousands of passengers on Southern Rail. It is now time for Chris Grayling to stand up and sort it out.’

 

[HLE]

How about a petition calling for wilkinsons head? Should surely gain a few signatures

 

[WatcherZero]

A spokesman for GTR said: "The Aslef leadership has twice accepted the extension of driver-controlled operation and asked us this time to package it up with a pay deal.

"We've made a very generous offer that in four years would take a driver's base salary to £60,683 for the existing 35-hour, four-day week, so we find this threat of an overtime ban surprising and extremely disappointing."

Southern's parent company revealed it had offered staff a four-year pay deal worth 23.8%. Govia Thameslink Railway (GTR) said the offer would take a driver's base salary from £49,001 to £60,683 for the existing 35-hour, four-day week.

Hmmm.

 

[ComUtoR]

Hmmm.

I agree. All that money and yet they still refuse DOO. Makes you wonder doesn't it

 

[redbutton]

Hmmm.

Not everything is about pay. I hear that in addition to requiring the withdrawal of the DOO dispute despite the pay talks being completely independent of the ongoing DOO negotiations (being conducted by a different group), the offer included some rather sweeping changes to the collective bargaining machinery that would have pretty much allowed the company to impose in the future whatever working hours or practices they want.

 

[Robertj21a]

ASLEF press release

http://www.aslef.org.uk/page.php?id=217

ASLEF and Southern Rail
Mick Whelan, general secretary of ASLEF, the train drivers’ union, tonight responded to a press release put out by Southern Railways. Mick said:

‘ASLEF suspended the imposition of an overtime ban on Southern Railways – due to start on Sunday 4 June – for two weeks to allow time for negotiations to find a resolution of all the outstanding issues with the company to be discussed. For the record, we have only ever talked to the company about driver only operation, not about driver controlled operation. That is just one of many inaccuracies in the press release the company has issued.

‘We have been talking to the company, over the last fortnight, in parallel, but separate, talks about drivers’ terms and conditions; industrial relations; and pay.

‘The company’s failure to engage over DOO is the reason our members will no longer work overtime – which, of course, is entirely voluntary – from Thursday 29 June. By giving the company another fortnight, we had hoped to avoid industrial action because industrial action is always the last resort; we would much rather talk, and negotiate, around a table, than take industrial action.

‘As for pay, that is now eight months behind schedule – on a deal that should have been done back in 2016 – but which the company has refused, until now, to negotiate with us.

‘I can categorically state that the company spokesman is lying when he says ASLEF asked GTR to package up an extension of DCO with pay. We did not. That is a blatant lie and a deliberate and malicious attempt to mislead the passengers this company has been letting down, every day, since it got its franchise.

‘GTR should stop letting passengers – and staff – down and stop telling falsehoods. Because this is no way to run a railway.

‘This dispute was started by Peter Wilkinson at the Department for Transport – something he frankly admitted at a public meeting in Croydon last year when he said “They can’t afford to spend too long on strike and I will push them into that place.” This is a dispute devised by Peter Wilkinson and the DfT who have caused misery and heartache for hundreds of thousands of passengers on Southern Rail. It is now time for Chris Grayling to stand up and sort it out.’

I'm getting ever more confused by all this, so apologies if I'm misreading or misunderstanding something.
Is Mick Whelan simply, but very carefully, saying that '.....ASLEF asked GTR to package up an extension of DCO with pay' is a lie because it wasn't asked for by ASLEF ? - it may have been suggested by GTR (or any other interested party), or it could again be just a play on words so that it gives ASLEF members a more favourable impression of the talks ?

That 23.8% pay deal over 4 years looks to be so generous as to even raise doubts in my mind over its accuracy !

 

[WatcherZero]

To put that starting salary in to comparison its higher than a pilot serving as the first officer of an aircraft can earn and in to the starting salary of an experienced Captain at a non triple A airline, £57,000 to £78,000.

The Unions have managed to totally divorce skill from the jobs salary expectation. Its twice what a train driver in the US can earn, three times that of an average German, Italian or Dutch train driver, twice that of a French or Spanish driver and one and half times that of the German drivers maximum salary cap.

 

[HLE]

To put that starting salary in to comparison its higher than a pilot serving as the first officer of an aircraft can earn and in to the starting salary of an experienced Captain at a non triple A airline, £57,000 to £78,000.

The Unions have managed to totally divorce skill from the jobs salary expectation. Its twice what a train driver in the US can earn, three times that of an average German, Italian or Dutch train driver, twice that of a French or Spanish driver and one and half times that of the German drivers maximum salary cap.

And who's to blame for that? Yes the DFT, TOC's and whoever else for continually chucking money at drivers so conditions can be altered and jobs got rid of (guards) without much fallout.

Doesn't work as well these days as the above shows. Drivers have cottoned onto what they are up to. Higher pay for worse conditions.

 

[Carlisle]

And who's to blame for that? Yes the DFT, TOC's and whoever else for continually chucking money at drivers so conditions can be altered and jobs got rid of (guards) without much fallout.

Doesn't work as well these days as the above shows. Drivers have cottoned onto what they are up to. Higher pay for worse conditions.

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-calls-on-first-mtr-to-give-doo-assurances/
So clearly to prevent these strikes spreading to other TOCs the RMT actually want a lot more than their often publicly reported request of a second safety critical staff member on all trains

 

[ComUtoR]

The Unions have managed to totally divorce skill from the jobs salary expectation

Have they ?

It is supply and demand as well as being limited by the number of applicants meeting the standards required. It is also a job that has kept up with inflation. Is it a case where other employment hasn't kept up in line with inflation and their wages have been suppressed artificially or even deliberately ?

If the Union has managed to sustain and improve workers conditions then they should be applauded not demonised. They have done their job and worked hard for their members. If other employment has not done that then that is their problem and they have contributed to the low wage structure in this country.

What about those with million pound salaries ? are they worth it and should they be demonised the way that my job is ? I know someone who was, until recently, high up in the NHS. She earned a metric ****ton of cash. Considering the disparity in wage of those below her; should she be held up and crucified too ?

This is also 'private' company money. There is an argument that the railway is subsidised but this is a private company paying its employees a decent wage. Good for them. How many companies are only paying the living wage because of the image ? It's still the minimum they can get away with. Those should be vilified, not those paying a decent salary.

The railway all over pays a very very good salary for what people do and for what they are qualified for. £25k to bat and flag is incredible and the skill level is minimal. But. Remember what we do. Remember the responsibility we carry. The hours we do and the times we work are sometimes not worth the money. Tell people they need to start work at 0345 in the morning and you will struggle to find employees. Tell them it pays £55k and you might change their minds.

The restrictions on my working life are serious debilitating at times. £55k makes that a bit easier. I miss sports day with my daughter but I can spoil her on the weekend instead. My wages facilitate that. I no longer work overtime and haven't for many years. My wages facilitate that and ever second I'm not at work I can devote to my family. My last job I slogged it out 12hrs a day for a pittance. You couldn't pay me enough to go back to it.

 

[InOban]

I'm going to get roasted alive (again), but
1. I believe that there was a rapid rise in salaries because it was easier for the TOCs to poach them from each other than train their own.
2. Every time a TOC announces that they are going to recruit more drivers to launch a new or increased service there a media reports of avalanches of applications. It seems that the TOCs can be very choosy. It also suggests that the salary is more than adequate.
3. I agree about antisocial working hours. In my local Council, normal hours are 0600 to 2000, a premium is paid outwith that. However, these hours apply 7 days a week, Sunday is a normal day. I am told that my TOC is refusing to launch additional sunday trains until they have seven day contracts. Obviously the unions resist this because it would remove the power of the overtime ban, not because they have Christian sensibilities.
4. Unlike those disparaged as bat and flag, who are now required to have real people-handling skills, the driver's job can, with suitable investment, be entirely automated, as it is in an increasing number of metro systems. If they keep escalating salaries, they will price themselves out of their jobs.

 

[TEW]

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-calls-on-first-mtr-to-give-doo-assurances/
So clearly to prevent these strikes spreading to other TOCs the RMT actually want a lot more than their often publicly reported request of a second safety critical staff member on all trains

All the RMT are calling for there is a retention of the status quo on SWT, I'd be surprised by anything else.

 

[the sniper]

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-calls-on-first-mtr-to-give-doo-assurances/
So clearly to prevent these strikes spreading to other TOCs the RMT actually want a lot more than their often publicly stated request of a second safety critical staff member on all trains

Come on now... Don't be disingenuous. :roll:

That 23.8% pay deal over 4 years looks to be so generous as to even raise doubts in my mind over its accuracy !

Working for a different TOC with no DOO, but where DCO is likely to get pushed, most people I've spoken to expect that the TOC will (have to at least) offer at least £10k with no condition other than DOO/DCO implementation as a matter of course. No one is asking for it, but it's just presumed that the TOC will offer at least that much to attempt to break the resolve of the Drivers resisting DCO/DOO. Frankly, I think they'll offer more, or will need to offer more than £10k if they really wish to grease the wheels...

I appreciate that the Southern situation is different as they already work DOO, but there's always been a bigger picture to appreciate with the Southern dispute.

 

[Mintona]

Christ, I wouldn't accept DOO if they offered to double my salary.

 

[ComUtoR]

I'm going to get roasted alive (again), but
1. I believe that there was a rapid rise in salaries because it was easier for the TOCs to poach them from each other than train their own.

Partly true and consider there is a training cost as well. Purely for business reasons many employers offer high salaries. There are agencies out there dedicated to headhunting. One of the discussions about high salaries when the banking crisis hit was that there is a need to offer high salaries as an incentive for people to apply.

2. Every time a TOC announces that they are going to recruit more drivers to launch a new or increased service there a media reports of avalanches of applications. It seems that the TOCs can be very choosy. It also suggests that the salary is more than adequate.

Double edged sword. There is always an avalanche of applicants. Is this because of the high salary and that it is well know to be a decent job ? Don't forget that being a Train Driver back in the day was a terrible job that was low paid and long hours. I would say it is the success of the TOCs and the Union both that has made this an attractive place to work and that goes for the entire railway network. The TOC's can be choosy and the application process is brutal but there is a 90-95% failure rate of applicants. At the end of the day not many make it through the process. If this was a £20k job; how many would then apply.

We have all sorts of new entrants. Solicitors, Posties, Coppers, Bankers, Accountants etc etc. Some on higher salaries. This job has finally become something people want to do.

3. I agree about antisocial working hours. In my local Council, normal hours are 0600 to 2000, a premium is paid outwith that. However, these hours apply 7 days a week, Sunday is a normal day. I am told that my TOC is refusing to launch additional sunday trains until they have seven day contracts.

My previous employment was very much 9-5. Sundays and weekends were outside of normal hours and paid at a premium. Sundays and weekends are still considered to be outside of the normal working week. Retail is an exception but they still offer specific weekend contracts. Many employment is still very traditional hours. The railway absorbed the weekends, evenings, etc etc into their normal day. Even Bank Holidays have almost been absorbed into the normal week. How many employers close on a bank holiday ? All those extra premiums have been absorbed into the base salary. That has pushed it higher and higher each pay deal. Look at what happened recently with employment law and the commission based workers pay. The union has fought for those bonuses and premiums to be included because it is appalling that employees have been treated so badly over the years.

With a high base salary, I get no extras. No extra for bank holiday, no double time days (except boxing day) no overtime rate, no shift allowance, nothing. That is a hard ill to swallow but acceptable because the high salary reflects all of those allowances. We are now entering a stage where the TOCS are pre buying any future conditions and changes. They are getting conditions where they are eroding terms for salary and gaining conditions such as 'no additional payment for technology advances' So no more extras. That has now been bought and sold. Hence why the push for DOO to be included in a pay deal.

Back in BR days it was bought in via DOO money. If a Driver went DOO they got a bonus and signed up. Now its being forced. They could have gone a different way but they have decided on a very aggressive approach

Obviously the unions resist this because it would remove the power of the overtime ban, not because they have Christian sensibilities.

The Unions wants Sundays to be included. The TOC doesn't. Sundays outside means its paid as overtime. Paid as base salary pushes the wage bill up again and any future rises will have an element of the Sunday payment included. It also pushes up the pension as currently Sundays are not pensionable pay (it's overtime) Including Sundays in the working week also means that the TOC loses a day for each employee. The need to hire more staff and they do not want that. Sundays outside is cheaper in terms of wages to pay as overtime. Look at the new GTR deal to see just how badly the TOC doesn't want Sundays included.

4. Unlike those disparaged as bat and flag, who are now required to have real people-handling skills, the driver's job can, with suitable investment, be entirely automated, as it is in an increasing number of metro systems. If they keep escalating salaries, they will price themselves out of their jobs.

Certainly not any intention to disparage staff dispatch but it is a well paid job with little skill required. It can also be automated. I'm DOO. No staff to dispatch me at most locations and with CD/RA you need less staff. It is another job being eroded by automation. The role of the Driver is also changing. We are being recruited with customer service in mind and it is more considered a front facing role rather than the old school sit in cab and ignore everyone.

The roles that we do on the railways are more than what they appear. Staff dispatch has a huge responsibility and is very safety focussed. They get paid highly when you place it along side other employment. Is it wrong that years of university gets you Jack Shee nowadays ? Is it wrong for a Teacher to be paid a pittance or a nurse to be considered low paid employment ? Of course but they need to deal with the wage structure in their own industry.

 

[ComUtoR]

Christ, I wouldn't accept DOO if they offered to double my salary.

I have no choice but knowing what I do now. I wouldn't accept it whatsoever. £60k and they still said NO. Clearly, not about the money.

 

[Dave1987]

I'm going to get roasted alive (again), but
1. I believe that there was a rapid rise in salaries because it was easier for the TOCs to poach them from each other than train their own.
2. Every time a TOC announces that they are going to recruit more drivers to launch a new or increased service there a media reports of avalanches of applications. It seems that the TOCs can be very choosy. It also suggests that the salary is more than adequate.
3. I agree about antisocial working hours. In my local Council, normal hours are 0600 to 2000, a premium is paid outwith that. However, these hours apply 7 days a week, Sunday is a normal day. I am told that my TOC is refusing to launch additional sunday trains until they have seven day contracts. Obviously the unions resist this because it would remove the power of the overtime ban, not because they have Christian sensibilities.
4. Unlike those disparaged as bat and flag, who are now required to have real people-handling skills, the driver's job can, with suitable investment, be entirely automated, as it is in an increasing number of metro systems. If they keep escalating salaries, they will price themselves out of their jobs.

Considering you believe that Merseyrail could be entirely automated I don't really believe you actually understand what you are on about. Either that or you are simply trolling.

 

[InOban]

I'm merely being provocative. We have a situation where constructing, maintaining and operating a railway has become so expensive as to be seen as unaffordable by tax- and fare-paying community, forcing them to use more dangerous and more polluting modes of transport.

What solutions do others have?

 

[physics34]

To put that starting salary in to comparison its higher than a pilot serving as the first officer of an aircraft can earn and in to the starting salary of an experienced Captain at a non triple A airline, £57,000 to £78,000.

The Unions have managed to totally divorce skill from the jobs salary expectation. Its twice what a train driver in the US can earn, three times that of an average German, Italian or Dutch train driver, twice that of a French or Spanish driver and one and half times that of the German drivers maximum salary cap.

poppycock. French drivers earn nearly the same as UK drivers and German drivers earn less but get medical insurance and meals paid

 

[HowardGWR]

poppycock. French drivers earn nearly the same as UK drivers and German drivers earn less but get medical insurance and meals paid

Neither of you are quoting sources. I would want definitive sources before I accepted any of it, apologies.

 

[physics34]

Neither of you are quoting sources. I would want definitive sources before I believed any of it, apologies.

http://www.xpats.com/wage-watchers-how-much-does-a-train-driver-earn

 

[HowardGWR]

http://www.xpats.com/wage-watchers-how-much-does-a-train-driver-earn

Thanks, I changed 'believed' to 'accepted' as I didn't mean to say I doubted either of you, your word. That site is just an unofficial site. I would only accept official NS, DB, SNCF sources. In the end it doesn't matter as bargaining power does not rest on comparison with foreign salaries, without a whole host of social security and other data, such as housing costs. One would need a lot of effort to get all that together.

 

[Carlisle]

All the RMT are calling for there is a retention of the status quo on SWT, I'd be surprised by anything else.

I was only suggesting it may be better for the union to wait and see what's actually proposed,not rush into a strike ballot perhaps only on the basis that the company won't promise full door control to every guard for the entire ffranchise period, after all we've been told endlessly it's not all about the doors

 

[Robertj21a]

If that 23.8% over 4 years is correct, and recognising that it's already overdue, what sort of figure is likely to represent the increase that might have been expected over that period in 'normal' circumstances ?

Given tight financial controls, I'd guess that 10-15% might have been on offer to cover 4 year's increases. If that's anywhere near to being a realistic guess then it suggests about 10% has been added in as a 'sweetener' re DOO/DCO.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Why is it that everyone seems to think offering more money will solve this, I'd rather have slightly less money, but better T&Cs to compensate.

 

[Dave1987]

Why is it that everyone seems to think offering more money will solve this, I'd rather have slightly less money, but better T&Cs to compensate.

Yup totally agree.