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Wales & Borders Franchise Consultation

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Dai Corner

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They are building loads of office blocks in the vicinity of Cardiff Central station because it is the transport hub for SE Wales. Presumably, if ATW staff in the present HQ live in say Port Talbot, they will have to travel by train to Cardiff Central & then go on a valleys train to Pontypridd? Of course, many will say that this is taking too long and will drive along the M4 to J34 (Miskin) & then use the A473 to Pontypridd. This all rather defeats the object of building the office blocks by Cardiff Central and just adds to traffic congestion.

It could be worse than that. They might end up having to catch a train to Central, walk to Queen Street and get a tram to Pontypridd. I suppose the hope is that in time people will relocate to Pontypridd, northern Cardiff or the Rhondda, Cyon and Taff Valleys.
 
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Gareth Marston

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It could be worse than that. They might end up having to catch a train to Central, walk to Queen Street and get a tram to Pontypridd. I suppose the hope is that in time people will relocate to Pontypridd, northern Cardiff or the Rhondda, Cyon and Taff Valleys.

When I worked in Welsh Government half my team were in Cathays Park and relocated to Merthyr Tydfil when the office opened there in 2007, 5 of them lived in the valleys anyway and the other two lived in Cardiff suburbs and reckoned the drive to Merthyr was easier than trying to get into Central Cardiff. It will all depend on personal circumstances it will suit some more than others. Long service people will probably be more inclined to stick it out than the younger ones. The junior finance, customer service roles are easily replicated in Cardiff and there could be a lot of churn in these roles. However some valley folk who travel into Cardiff to do these type of roles in other organizations may find Pontypridd more attractive.

I got a job in Newtown rather than relocate from Machynlleth to Aberystwyth in 2009.
 

Dai Corner

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When I worked in Welsh Government half my team were in Cathays Park and relocated to Merthyr Tydfil when the office opened there in 2007, 5 of them lived in the valleys anyway and the other two lived in Cardiff suburbs and reckoned the drive to Merthyr was easier than trying to get into Central Cardiff. It will all depend on personal circumstances it will suit some more than others. Long service people will probably be more inclined to stick it out than the younger ones. The junior finance, customer service roles are easily replicated in Cardiff and there could be a lot of churn in these roles. However some valley folk who travel into Cardiff to do these type of roles in other organizations may find Pontypridd more attractive.

I got a job in Newtown rather than relocate from Machynlleth to Aberystwyth in 2009.

That makes sense Gareth. i commuted into central Bristol, then the northern fringe, for twenty five years. After being made redundant I got a job within walking distance of home. I would never go back to commuting into a large city again.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Is there another case where TOC/NR people share accommodation with their franchise management?
At least it takes those costs out of the overall franchise running costs, but it is a reduction in the freedom of "the railway" to manage its own corporate costs.
(eg Arriva (or whoever) can't share its ATW costs with those of its other franchises), for things like procurement or back office work.
They'll need some strong Chinese walls...

And are there W&B franchise HQ staff elsewhere (eg Chester, Crewe, Shrewsbury)?
They'd be sent to an empty WG office in Wrexham maybe...

Ken Skates did say the WG would only competitively franchise those functions of the operation that they had to, ie just the direct train operation.
But this seems to go beyond what happens at LO or Merseyrail.
 

Gareth Marston

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Is there another case where TOC/NR people share accommodation with their franchise management?
At least it takes those costs out of the overall franchise running costs, but it is a reduction in the freedom of "the railway" to manage its own corporate costs.
(eg Arriva (or whoever) can't share its ATW costs with those of its other franchises), for things like procurement or back office work.
They'll need some strong Chinese walls...

And are there W&B franchise HQ staff elsewhere (eg Chester, Crewe, Shrewsbury)?
They'd be sent to an empty WG office in Wrexham maybe...

Ken Skates did say the WG would only competitively franchise those functions of the operation that they had to, ie just the direct train operation.
But this seems to go beyond what happens at LO or Merseyrail.

No higher function outside of Cardiff. Traincrew Managers, Station Managers etc but they need to be local.

Presumably moving it all all to Pontypridd removes the physiological blame from Cardiff and therefore the Welsh Government. Got a complaint about rail ravel contact Pontypridd! will be the mantra.
 

PHILIPE

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It could be worse than that. They might end up having to catch a train to Central, walk to Queen Street and get a tram to Pontypridd. I suppose the hope is that in time people will relocate to Pontypridd, northern Cardiff or the Rhondda, Cyon and Taff Valleys.

Would be barmy if necessary to change at Queen St to/from the Metro. Mentioned earlier, people from Valleys who've got to Cardiff Central to work, shop, connect into Mail Line trains or whatever, shouldn't have to change at Queen St.
 

Gareth Marston

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Would be barmy if necessary to change at Queen St to/from the Metro. Mentioned earlier, people from Valleys who've got to Cardiff Central to work, shop, connect into Mail Line trains or whatever, shouldn't have to change at Queen St.

Unfortunately this is the sort of thing the Welsh government would authorise and shout it's the greatest thing since sliced bread providing there were graphics of shiny trains to show. Given how much is coming out about how much the WG is specifying things despite pretending public ally it's not.....:(
 

gareth950

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I travel daily through Cardiff on the Valley lines and when there are no train breakdowns or signalling faults, the journey is seamless. Train crew change over at Central in seconds and you can be in and out of Central in under 2 minutes.
In all fairness to ATW, the big improvement they have made to the VL's during their franchise has been introducing a clock face timetable and building up a reliable, well functioning and seamless valleys network through Central. When there's no disruption, which is now significantly less thanks to CASR being almost complete, punctuality is kept to the minute.

Then comes along this article on a website/magazine I'd highly recommend subscribing to www.transportxtra.com

https://www.transportxtra.com/publi...he-valley-lines-is-a-complex-business-says-nr

TransportXtra said:
Devolving the Valley Lines is a complex business, says NR
RAIL

Rhodri Clark
17 March 2017

Network Rail has outlined the complexities involved in transferring responsibility for the Valley Lines network of railways above Cardiff to the Welsh Government.

The Welsh Government wants vertical integration of track and trains on the core Valley Lines network as part of the 15-year Wales & Borders franchise, due to begin in October 2018.

The franchisee, described as an operator and development partner (ODP), would manage the services and infrastructure, including enhancements such as the proposed electrification and conversion of the lines to light rail operation.

Welsh Government officials are conducting a competitive dialogue process with the four shortlisted bidders whereby the bidders propose technical solutions before being invited to submit formal tenders.

In evidence to a National Assembly for Wales committee, Network Rail says it is obliged to demonstrate “realisation of value” from the Valley Lines transfer, in line with Treasury Green Book rules. A ‘Five Case’ model business case is required to do so. Network Rail says the transfer would have to hold it harmless from:

• inefficiencies arising from the Wales Route’s changed geography;

• reduced income, which is not matched by reduced costs;

• effects on current or future Control Period settlements, which cannot be renegotiated with the Office of Rail and Road; and

• and liabilities, mainly the value of debt associated with the assets but also obligations relating to the infrastructure.

Network Rail has given the franchise bidders “in-principle commitments” to facilitate a variety of possible outcomes from the competitive dialogue. These include Network Rail retaining the core Valley Lines or divesting them to the Welsh Government, and infrastructure changes “to facilitate interconnected services on a different pattern to present”.

Complete segregation of the core Valley Lines is another possibility, which, says NR, would introduce “novel interfaces to the Cardiff area”. Currently passenger trains from the Valleys operate through Cardiff Central to Bridgend via Barry. Occasional coal trains still operate on the lower part of the Rhymney Valley branch, serving an opencast site at Cwmbargoed.

“This is a novel procurement, both in terms of programme and award,” Network Rail told the Assembly’s economy, infrastructure and skills committee inquiry into the new franchise. “The procurement programme is driven by two determining factors: the expiry of the current franchise (October 2018) and the bringing into service of core Valley Lines service enhancements to meet European funding deadlines (2022/2023). Challenges also exist in the wider rail service geography, including the introduction of new rolling stock accessible to people of reduced mobility (2020 unless deferred).

“Network Rail’s view is that the procurement timeline is both understandable and very challenging, particularly in relation to the delivery of interventions in the core Valley Lines.

“The accurate description of the core Valley Lines and their conveyance from Network Rail to Welsh Government, as well as the transfer of the infrastructure manager business to the successful ODP, is a large and complex transaction. Due diligence and final terms for both will not be complete prior to the award of the rail service grant.”

There are two elements to the proposed Valley Lines’ further devolution: transfer of asset ownership and control to the Welsh Government; and transfer of the infrastructure manager role to the ODP. “These two elements need not occur at the same time,” says NR. “The infrastructure can continue to be managed by Network Rail as an agent of the new owner, Welsh Government, until such a time as the ODP is in a position to assume the responsibility of infrastructure manager. This might even be done on a line-by-line basis, if appropriate. Network Rail continues to offer a flexible approach to Welsh Government to mitigate risks that might arise from the challenging programme.”

Seems that the WG is desperate to do a quick job of the valley lines conversion to trams so it can secure the EU funding, which is not a good enough reason to smash up a perfectly functioning network.
 
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Sparks807Evo

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I feel it a shame if they are convert any of it to Light Rail really; light rail doesn't offer the same comfort standards and it can take a considerable time period to return a profit. You only have to look at the Midland Metro for that where probably it is only just starting to break even thanks to the extension. Personally I'd invest in Bi-Mode Stadler units (or similar) to operate the Valleys, and then when electrification does eventually arrive it is possible to re-configure them to be electric only. Shorter time frame in theory for fleet replacement, and still offers an improvement in journey quality and capacity.

The rolling stock situation has been poorly managed - there is no conceivable way that there will be suitable rolling stock in place to replace the Pacers by 2020. The 175s are inadequate now at times for the role they fulfil, and ideally you'd electrify the North Wales line in the future. The next franchise holder really has their work cut out to make improvements across the board.
 

ABB125

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I feel it a shame if they are convert any of it to Light Rail really; light rail doesn't offer the same comfort standards and it can take a considerable time period to return a profit. You only have to look at the Midland Metro for that where probably it is only just starting to break even thanks to the extension. Personally I'd invest in Bi-Mode Stadler units (or similar) to operate the Valleys, and then when electrification does eventually arrive it is possible to re-configure them to be electric only. Shorter time frame in theory for fleet replacement, and still offers an improvement in journey quality and capacity.

I agree about the Stadler units - it's probably the best thing to do.
 

gareth950

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I feel it a shame if they are convert any of it to Light Rail really; light rail doesn't offer the same comfort standards and it can take a considerable time period to return a profit. You only have to look at the Midland Metro for that where probably it is only just starting to break even thanks to the extension. Personally I'd invest in Bi-Mode Stadler units (or similar) to operate the Valleys, and then when electrification does eventually arrive it is possible to re-configure them to be electric only. Shorter time frame in theory for fleet replacement, and still offers an improvement in journey quality and capacity.

The rolling stock situation has been poorly managed - there is no conceivable way that there will be suitable rolling stock in place to replace the Pacers by 2020. The 175s are inadequate now at times for the role they fulfil, and ideally you'd electrify the North Wales line in the future. The next franchise holder really has their work cut out to make improvements across the board.

Agreed completely. HR electrification of the newly named 'Core' valleys could be part completed by 2023 to secure the EU funding, even if a line at a time is shut. HR bi-modes would enable the current network to stay as is and not be split in half at Queen St.
4 tph is specified as a requirement on the SW Metro page here: http://gov.wales/topics/transport/public/metro/?lang=en which could be achieved by doubling single line sections up the heads of the valleys as much as possible, and widening the bridge over Newport Rd north of Queen St, even just by 1 track.

As Gareth Marston has already alluded to though, more and more you get the feeling regardless of all the talk of 'engagement and discussion' with the franchise bidders and the current public consultation, WG has already specified most things.

There's another well informed article on the TransportXtra website about how the franchise process is now delayed and lacks the professional expertise to award such a complex contract. It's behind a paywall but you can sign up for a free trial: https://www.transportxtra.com/publi...52911/franchise-procurement-could-be-hurried-
 

Llanigraham

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There is some "person" on one of the Cardiff Facebook pages proposing that Cardiff Central be obliterated and a new station being built on an extended site, either including the Brains site or the prison.
 

craigybagel

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There is some "person" on one of the Cardiff Facebook pages proposing that Cardiff Central be obliterated and a new station being built on an extended site, either including the Brains site or the prison.

To be fair Cardiff Central IS too small for the amount of people it handles. The platforms aren't too bad, but the concourse and especially the subway could do with widening. Presumably though cost and the prusmably listed station building would be an issue.
 

Llanigraham

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Agreed it isn't perfect, but it seems to be working better know the "back" entrance is properly operational. Problems I can see are the fact that yes it is listed, as the prison may also be, plus the operational problems to would occur with the demolition and reconstruction. It isn't a station that could be closed down for a period as there is no diversionary route.
And considering the up-roar there has been with the closure of the bus station, I think there might be a bloody revolution if they suggested knocking the station down. Many Cardiffians hold it dear.
 

Gareth Marston

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Transport Wales are still looking for more people to attend the event in Aberystwyth.

Hi all,



Please find below details of our consultation event in Aberystwyth on 3rd April. I’d be grateful if you could circulate to your colleagues and networks.



https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/trafnidiaeth-cymrutransport-for-wales-aberystwyth-tickets-32042845012



many thanks



Elen





ELEN KING

Rheolwr Cyfathrebu ac Ymgysylltu / Communications and Engagement Manager
Trafnidiaeth Cymru - Transport for Wales

T: 029 2167 3434 / 07951 392553
Tŷ Southgate, Stryd Wood, Caerdydd, CF10 1EW

Southgate House, Wood Street, Cardiff, CF10 1EW

And on April 4th a representative of Arriva Uk is attending the SARPA meeting in Newtown. (Sportsman pub 1845)
 
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To be fair Cardiff Central IS too small for the amount of people it handles. The platforms aren't too bad, but the concourse and especially the subway could do with widening. Presumably though cost and the prusmably listed station building would be an issue.

I think the Brains site would be a great idea for terminating platforms, the biggest problems are when events are on at the Principality Stadium and a few platforms from the east would definitely help. I can't imagine how the prison site would work as it's next to Queen Street not Central.
 

gareth950

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If any buildings need to be compulsory purchased and demolished it's the office blocks in Callaghan square rammed up against the railway and central station to the south, blocking any further expansion of the southern side of the station, as well as prohibiting any expansion of the two track section between Central and Queen St.

Demolishing and rebuilding / relocating the current station is just madness. The proposals to build the concourse above the current platforms is the best solution.
 

Envoy

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If any buildings need to be compulsory purchased and demolished it's the office blocks in Callaghan square rammed up against the railway and central station to the south, blocking any further expansion of the southern side of the station, as well as prohibiting any expansion of the two track section between Central and Queen St.

Demolishing and rebuilding / relocating the current station is just madness. The proposals to build the concourse above the current platforms is the best solution.

I agree. This office blocks should never have been built rammed right up against the railway - where the Valley lines approach the Central station. What they should have done here is tack on the Cardiff Bay Branch so that trains could reach the Bay form Central rather than Queen Street.

This all goes back to the days of the Cardiff Bay Development Corporation (i980’s). At the time, the railways had practically given up on the Bay branch - Bute Road it was called then. The masterplan was that the railway would be completely removed and Lloyd George Avenue would be integrated into Callaghan Square - (it was called Bute Square but Labour changed the name). Anyway, the railways then saw increasing customers on the Bay branch and decided to hang onto it - especially as it had a bridge over the traffic jams that now frequent this area. So, that is why we are where we are now. Street trams between Central & the Bay would also presumably be stuck in the traffic in this area.
 

PHILIPE

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I agree. This office blocks should never have been built rammed right up against the railway - where the Valley lines approach the Central station. What they should have done here is tack on the Cardiff Bay Branch so that trains could reach the Bay form Central rather than Queen Street.

This all goes back to the days of the Cardiff Bay Development Corporation (i980’s). At the time, the railways had practically given up on the Bay branch - Bute Road it was called then. The masterplan was that the railway would be completely removed and Lloyd George Avenue would be integrated into Callaghan Square - (it was called Bute Square but Labour changed the name). Anyway, the railways then saw increasing customers on the Bay branch and decided to hang onto it - especially as it had a bridge over the traffic jams that now frequent this area. So, that is why we are where we are now. Street trams between Central & the Bay would also presumably be stuck in the traffic in this area.

What actually influenced the saving of the Cardiff Bay Branch was the building of County Hall, the new Cardiff Council offices, in 1986/87. The service was increased as a result, and at the outset, Bay trains were not to be cancelled. This was in spite of what was an increased frequency.
 

Gareth Marston

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I agree. This office blocks should never have been built rammed right up against the railway - where the Valley lines approach the Central station. What they should have done here is tack on the Cardiff Bay Branch so that trains could reach the Bay form Central rather than Queen Street.

This all goes back to the days of the Cardiff Bay Development Corporation (i980’s). At the time, the railways had practically given up on the Bay branch - Bute Road it was called then. The masterplan was that the railway would be completely removed and Lloyd George Avenue would be integrated into Callaghan Square - (it was called Bute Square but Labour changed the name). Anyway, the railways then saw increasing customers on the Bay branch and decided to hang onto it - especially as it had a bridge over the traffic jams that now frequent this area. So, that is why we are where we are now. Street trams between Central & the Bay would also presumably be stuck in the traffic in this area.

Lloyd George Avenue - Welsh Government is still paying off the PFI Bill for it:-x

The Bay Development was chronically poorly though out in terms of transport which partly explains why its only been partly successful and is still isolated from the rest of the city. They could and should have put a light rail system in connecting Queen St and Central to it and extending further into the bay development than the old Bute Rd station.
 

gareth950

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I think the Brains site would be a great idea for terminating platforms, the biggest problems are when events are on at the Principality Stadium and a few platforms from the east would definitely help. I can't imagine how the prison site would work as it's next to Queen Street not Central.

The Brains site is increasingly beginning to look like the only suitable site left for the relocation of the bus station, as Cardiff Council has presided over a shambles with building the new bus station and now admits there's not even any funding in place for it http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/cardiff-bus-station-funding-incompetence-12773807

So Cardiff has gone from having a well connected bus station just metres from the main entrance to the railway station, to having no bus station at all and no guarantees a new one will even be built, with buses scattered around the city in the meantime.

Why do I have no confidence in the delivery of the 'Metro' and think they are going to f*** up the valley lines?
 
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Rhydgaled

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To be fair Cardiff Central IS too small for the amount of people it handles. The platforms aren't too bad, but the concourse and especially the subway could do with widening. Presumably though cost and the prusmably listed station building would be an issue.
Is there space under the tracks to widen one of the subways (the one with the lifts that doesn't have the classic tiles) or is the railway on an embankment of solid earth with the subways bored through it? I reckon that's what they should do if possible and maybe add a footbridge at the west end of the platforms (linking platform 0 directly to the others) and/or the east end (extending outside the station, over the street, to the new bus station).

If any buildings need to be compulsory purchased and demolished it's the office blocks in Callaghan square rammed up against the railway and central station to the south, blocking any further expansion of the southern side of the station, as well as prohibiting any expansion of the two track section between Central and Queen St.

Demolishing and rebuilding / relocating the current station is just madness. The proposals to build the concourse above the current platforms is the best solution.
There is some "person" on one of the Cardiff Facebook pages proposing that Cardiff Central be obliterated and a new station being built on an extended site, either including the Brains site or the prison.
Unfortunately, the fact it is a listed building doesn't seem to bother Network Rail and the architects they hired to produce visualisations for the refurbishment. While the artist's impressions don't go as far as entirely demolishing the current station, much of it would be demolished leaving very little of the listed building left (and the reason for listing was its completeness, which would be totally destroyed if the artist's impressions were implemented). I feel strongly that they shouldn't demolish any of it, just add extensions to accomodate future passenger volumes (prefrably with said extentions being low-key and only one storey high, so as not to detract from the listed parts of the station).

Transport Wales are still looking for more people to attend the event in Aberystwyth.
It might help if they ran some of the events at Weekends; the Carmarthen one (which would be my 'local' event) clashed with an important training day I have at work, so I am unable to attend.
 

Dai Corner

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One 'advantage' of terminating 'Core Valleys' services at Queen Street would be reducing the number of passengers using Central and avoiding the need to spoil the listed parts to increase capacity :lol: ;)
 

gareth950

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One 'advantage' of terminating 'Core Valleys' services at Queen Street would be reducing the number of passengers using Central and avoiding the need to spoil the listed parts to increase capacity :lol: ;)

Ahh, very good! They can't seriously be considering severing the link between Central and Queen St altogether though. If 'Core Valleys' services end up terminating at Queen St then surely services from Barry and Penarth will be continuing from Central to meet them there. You can't expect passengers who can now make seamless through journeys both ways to suddenly walk between Queen St - Central. What's integrated and joined up about that?
 

Rhydgaled

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You can't expect passengers who can now make seamless through journeys both ways to suddenly walk between Queen St - Central. What's integrated and joined up about that?
I don't think that's the plan; the map in the consultation document includes the link between Queen Street and Central as part of the 'Core ValleyLines', so platforms 6-8 at Cardiff Central would have something in the region of 32 services per hour terminating in them if the 'core' lines were converted to light rail other than tram-train.
 

gareth950

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I don't think that's the plan; the map in the consultation document includes the link between Queen Street and Central as part of the 'Core ValleyLines', so platforms 6-8 at Cardiff Central would have something in the region of 32 services per hour terminating in them if the 'core' lines were converted to light rail other than tram-train.

And that's possible now thanks to CASR - 16tph both ways could be done if enough stock was available. I assume you don't mean 32 tph both ways?
 

PHILIPE

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I don't think that's the plan; the map in the consultation document includes the link between Queen Street and Central as part of the 'Core ValleyLines', so platforms 6-8 at Cardiff Central would have something in the region of 32 services per hour terminating in them if the 'core' lines were converted to light rail other than tram-train.

Whether Metro or Heavy rail, it is imperative that there should be through access from the Valleys to Cardiff Central.
 

gareth950

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I don't think that's the plan; the map in the consultation document includes the link between Queen Street and Central as part of the 'Core ValleyLines', so platforms 6-8 at Cardiff Central would have something in the region of 32 services per hour terminating in them if the 'core' lines were converted to light rail other than tram-train.

That's not what the article I quoted further back seems to suggest and the Metro map has changed so many times in the last few years who knows what is correct.
 

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tomuk

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The approach of the Welsh Government to the Franchise and the 'Metro' is infuriating. As they always say Keep it Simple Stupid.

Valley Lines

* Electrify all routes including Vale of Glamorgan, Maesteg, Ebbw Vale, Marches
line to Abergavenny and Glouscester Line to Chepstow. Services to be initially
run with Class 315 shortened to three cars.
* Sort out ticketing - ITSO/Iff card, barriers, review prices.
* Extra parking - P&R at appropriate/new stations.
* Increased revenues to pay for new stock.

South Wales Metro - Tram system taking over Bay Branch and linking Queen Street and Central with potential to expand around city/M4 park and ride
 

gareth950

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The approach of the Welsh Government to the Franchise and the 'Metro' is infuriating. As they always say Keep it Simple Stupid.

Valley Lines

* Electrify all routes including Vale of Glamorgan, Maesteg, Ebbw Vale, Marches
line to Abergavenny and Glouscester Line to Chepstow. Services to be initially
run with Class 315 shortened to three cars.
* Sort out ticketing - ITSO/Iff card, barriers, review prices.
* Extra parking - P&R at appropriate/new stations.
* Increased revenues to pay for new stock.

South Wales Metro - Tram system taking over Bay Branch and linking Queen Street and Central with potential to expand around city/M4 park and ride

That was the original plan back in 2012 before 'blue sky thinking' took over, and NR incompetence on GW electrification became clear, which has led to the WG thinking they can do a better job themselves, hence why they want control and ownership of these new 'Core Valley lines' transferred to them - see article a page back.
We could do better than class 315s though - by the time any electrification is done the glut of 321s and 360s from East Anglia would be available, as well as some 323s I believe.
 
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