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Wales & Borders Franchise Consultation

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Gareth Marston

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You need 2 extra units to resource the hourly service to Aberystwyth properly instead of squeezing existing diagrams as now. If you concentrated them all on the ex Central Trains lines your looking at being able to reform two thirds of them into 3 car sets and still running hourly from West Midlands to Chester and Cambrian with portions joining and splitting at Shrewsbury.

Hourly Chester to BHM INTL needs 5 diagrams
Hourly Aberystwyth to BHM INTL needs 7 diagrams.
Cambrian Coast needs 3 diagrams.

or keeping existing pattern
16/17 units for
2 hrly Holyhead to BHM INTL
2 hrly Aberystwyth to BHM INTL
2 hrly Pwllheli to BHM INTL
plus 3 for
2 hrly Aberystwyth to Crewe
 
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Gareth Marston

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Ideally the Coast should run (2-hourly) through to Brum, so that means a few more?

The market mid week in the winter is virtually non existent though. I used to commute to Machynlleth and would get in the coast portion home at either 1600 or 1800 and have a coach to myself almost. The same on the way there with the 0724 ex Shrewsbury rarely anyone going up the coast apart from in high summer.

Having 3/4 a day through to the West Midlands and having catering up the coast on them would target the market better.
 

Bletchleyite

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Having 3/4 a day through to the West Midlands and having catering up the coast on them would target the market better.

True. Other than the school holidays, the biggest market is going to be Friday evening, Saturday and Sunday - indeed, it would probably make sense to lop a through service during Friday daytime if it meant the Friday evening service I refer to upthread could be made more usable.

As I've also said I wouldn't mind a purely connectional service if it was properly timed and Mach was done up adequately.
 

Llanigraham

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True. Other than the school holidays, the biggest market is going to be Friday evening, Saturday and Sunday - indeed, it would probably make sense to lop a through service during Friday daytime if it meant the Friday evening service I refer to upthread could be made more usable.
But the biggest market isn't at those times and is never likely to be!
Sorry, but you quite obviously know nothing about the area or it's customers.

As I've also said I wouldn't mind a purely connectional service if it was properly timed and Mach was done up adequately.
There is nothing wrong with Machy!
Your previous statement was preposterous, as has been pointed out to you.
 

Bletchleyite

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You must be joking!
Please read what Gareth says, and look at the passenger figures for the Coastal section.
:roll::roll::roll:

So do you believe that the existing daytime service, which is the Coast running through to Brum approximately two hourly, should be lopped in favour of a connection?
 

Rhydgaled

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Haven't the ex-TPE 3 car 158s at SWT been modified so they are are more similar to the 159/0s then the remaining 3 car 158s with other operators?
Is there any difference anyway except that 159s have controlled emmission toilets, which the 158s will be getting in the next few years anyway?

Now I know Wales deserves new rolling stock, but with other franchises recieving Stadler and CAF DMU's I can see a huge cascade of DMU's to Wales.

Plus with ongoing strong rumours of South Western Rail franchise to order new EDMU's there will be plenty of 3 car Class 159 fleet going spare.
Remember that Northern have a LOT of Pacers, so even though they are introducing new DMUs they aren't actually releasing anything cascadable. Even if they were, deliveries of the new CAF units are due to run into 2020 according to the list in Modern Railways, so cascades from Northern would be too late to help W&B make their fleet TSI-PRM compliant. The Stadler units for GA aren't due until 2019 either, so again cascades may be too late and new DMUs for Wales will not be possible before 2020. The only new train option by 2020 that's not an EMU is CAF's mark 5 coaches, unless somebody has a spare production line and DMU design ready to roll.

Hopefully we will see the new franchise incorporate new services with new/displaced dmu's I wont be surprised to see us get some of these class 319's flex units as well as some possibly displaced class 158's.

I also believe that Northerns class 144's will appear on shot term to bolster the valley lines fleet
Porterbrook's response to the consultation run by one of the National Assembly committies makes slightly interesting reading depending on your perspective. Porterbrook have apparently given up on the ePacer concept, from the link:
Porterbrook Leasing said:
At this moment in time, the Class 143 (referred to as Pacers) will have no commercial viability for re-leasing on the UK rail network past the PRM-TSI deadline given the requirement from the DfT for them to be replaced in the Northern franchise as part of the franchise re let process. As a consequence of this decision Porterbrook has no intention to invest in them to make them compliant with PRM-TSI legislation
There are designs for 153s however, I wonder if that involves converting them back into 155s. They are also trying to 'sell' the class 323s for the Cardiff metro; I cannot see the sense in that since the car length is 23m which I thought wasn't cleared on most of the ValleyLines, and the only line that might take them (Rhymney) has a very short platform (just one door platformed I think, so trains need to be gangwayed throughout). Even if that station was fixed (I've not been there, so don't know the details of the problem) the other platforms are only 6x20m I believe; do 323s have SDO? Also, worryingly, making ATW's 36 150s compliant would apparently be a £10m investment; how long a lease after 2020 would be necessary for Porterbrook to recoup that?

I noted 5-car from Brum splitting at Mach (which could be done by sticking a non-ERTMS half-158 between the two halves of an existing one) would fit the line well.
If SWT do release their current DMUs, I wonder if the centre cars from the 159/1s could be put into ATW's 158s or would they need ETRMS mods anyway? And would there be a problem mixing the Perkins engines in ATW's 158s with the Cummins ones that I think the 3-car units have?

Only up to a point though. If my maths are correct - at any one time during the day you'll have 3 158s somewhere between Shrewsbury and Holyhead, and 3 in the south. That gives you an extra 6 158s to play with if they exclusively worked Cambrian-Birmingham (notwithstanding the alterations you'd have to do to the diagrams to free them up). Is 6 extra units enough to do everything that the Cambrian needs?
Realisticly it is only 5 extra units (3 in south Wales and 2 between Holyhead and Chester), because Wrexham passengers would probably go balistic if you removed their through link to Birmingham (Holyhead-Chester is less of a problem since it is faster via Crewe anyway).

Hourly Chester to BHM INTL needs 5 diagrams
Hourly Aberystwyth to BHM INTL needs 7 diagrams.
Cambrian Coast needs 3 diagrams.

or keeping existing pattern
16/17 units for
2 hrly Holyhead to BHM INTL
2 hrly Aberystwyth to BHM INTL
2 hrly Pwllheli to BHM INTL
plus 3 for
2 hrly Aberystwyth to Crewe
Ideally the Coast should run (2-hourly) through to Brum, so that means a few more?
I make it 16 diagrams for the following:
  • Hourly Aberystwyth - Birmingham International
  • 0.5tph Chester - Wrexham - Birmingham International (join/split with Aberystwyths at Shrewsbury)
  • 0.5tph Pwllheli - Birmingham International (join/split with Aberystwyths at Machynlleth)
which is how I think it should be, ideally with some 3-car units in the mix but I'm not particularly keen on the idea of hybrid 158s (better than most of the alternatives though I suppose) - I'd like to see them fit UEGs and ERTMS to the 175s but I don't suppose that is likely sadly. If you didn't have any 3-car units, is ATW's fleet of 24x 158s enough to lengthen everything that needs more capacity to 6-car out of Birmingham (with 4 coaches going wherever is busy)?
 

Llanigraham

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So do you believe that the existing daytime service, which is the Coast running through to Brum approximately two hourly, should be lopped in favour of a connection?

Where did I say that?
Please stop putting words into my mouth.
We started off discussing ONE train at the end of the day that you insisted did not make a connection, but others here said it did.
You also suggested a ridiculous and impossible modification to Machy Station, which some of us specified why it was impossible, which you said you were going to respond to, but haven't.

Yes I do believe that a 2 hourly on the coast, with an hourly on the "main line" is adequate with current passenger numbers. None of that is "lopped" in favour of a connection.

You quite obviously do NOT know the area, or the way The Cambrian runs.
 

Bletchleyite

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Where did I say that?
Please stop putting words into my mouth.
We started off discussing ONE train at the end of the day that you insisted did not make a connection, but others here said it did.
You also suggested a ridiculous and impossible modification to Machy Station, which some of us specified why it was impossible, which you said you were going to respond to, but haven't.

Yes I do believe that a 2 hourly on the coast, with an hourly on the "main line" is adequate with current passenger numbers. None of that is "lopped" in favour of a connection.

You quite obviously do NOT know the area, or the way The Cambrian runs.

I wasn't originally replying to you; if you can't be civil I'm not overly interested in engaging with you, which is why I have not done more research regarding the layout of Mach. I was replying to Gareth, who stated only 3 diagrams for the Coast, which would dictate a self-contained operation. He, not you, was proposing the present daytime services should not all run through.
 

Llanigraham

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I wasn't originally replying to you; if you can't be civil I'm not overly interested in engaging with you, which is why I have not done more research regarding the layout of Mach. I was replying to Gareth, who stated only 3 diagrams for the Coast, which would dictate a self-contained operation. He, not you, was proposing the present daytime services should not all run through.

Then why did you quote me, if you were replying to Gareth?
I merely replied to your question in that quote.

I quite agree with Gareth, in that there is not the need for the hourly service running through to Birmingham from the Pwllheli element of the Cambrian. There are not the numbers of passengers to justify it, and I suggest not enough ERTMS units to do it either.
 

Bletchleyite

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I agree no need for hourly, but ideally there should be two hourly, including a connection where it is possible to reach the Coast from London Euston leaving after work on a Friday.
 

PHILIPE

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I agree no need for hourly, but ideally there should be two hourly, including a connection where it is possible to reach the Coast from London Euston leaving after work on a Friday.

Do you know how many people travel from Euston for Coast stations on a Friday night. I would be interested to know if you could please tell me.
 

berneyarms

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Returning to the 21:43 Machynlleth-Pwllheli.

Under the old timetable it operated at 21:20, 30 minutes after the 18:09 from Birmingham International passed through Machynlleth.

I fully appreciate that this is presumably down to a combination of set servicing and (I'm guessing) driver hours.

It is now deferred to 21:43, 3 minutes ahead of the new(ish) 20:30 Shrewsbury-Aberystwyth.

Looking at real time trains it does not appear to have been held at Dovey Junction to provide a connection out of the 20:30 as suggested earlier in the thread.

While I appreciate that the original timing was presumably down to the set being serviced in the depot, and that being the earliest slot out available, it is hard to understand running the service three minutes ahead of the extra train from Shrewsbury and not offering any connection out of it. While the numbers transferring might not be huge, it certainly isn't good scheduling practice, nor does it encourage potential travellers from further afield, who instead have a 56 minute wait out of the 18:09 from Birmingham International.

I can only assume that the timing must be down to restrictions on crew hours? There would still be room for the 19:30 from Pwllheli that it crosses at Tywyn to nip in ahead of the 22:30 from Aberystwyth so that's not the reason.

While I am sure there is a valid reason, I think it is fair criticism to say that it isn't best timetabling practice. But I assume it is down to the lean resources at ATW's disposal.

It's fair comment to say that it is up there with Iarnrod Eireann scheduling the Rosslare-Dublin train to depart Rosslare Europort at 17:55, 5 minutes before the Stena Line ferry arrives into the port from Fishguard.
 
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Llanigraham

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I agree no need for hourly, but ideally there should be two hourly, including a connection where it is possible to reach the Coast from London Euston leaving after work on a Friday.

As you have been told, although it might not be in the timetable, the connection is made. And how many people do you expect to have traveled from Euston? Perhaps you could inform us?

From experience of living and working here, I can tell you that if people are coming for a weekend break on a Friday they arrive much earlier than that.
 

berneyarms

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As you have been told, although it might not be in the timetable, the connection is made. And how many people do you expect to have traveled from Euston? Perhaps you could inform us?

From experience of living and working here, I can tell you that if people are coming for a weekend break on a Friday they arrive much earlier than that.

If you are referring to the 21:43 departure out of Machynlleth, realtime trains suggests that it is not held. I am open to correction on that.

Even if it were held, no one could purchase a ticket online for that connection as it wouldn't appear in the journey planners, irrespective of where they are coming from. So how would anyone know that the connection was there unless they had local knowledge?

That's not exactly good practice in either running a business or scheduling.

I appreciate that there must be a resourcing reason for the current practice, but it does look utterly bizarre.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Do you know how many people travel from Euston for Coast stations on a Friday night. I would be interested to know if you could please tell me.

Not an awful lot now, but a lot of people *do* take weekend breaks in north Wales. It seems sensible to allow for them, and also to allow for a decent length of day trip to London, by having a decent evening peak connection.
 

Gareth Marston

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From a friend of mine in the "rail supply industry" little difference in bids for wider Wales and franchise bids, however all different approaches to South Wales Metro ranging from keeping existing heavy rail lines as that to full LRT with other two going for mix and match of heavy rail and LRT.
 

Rhydgaled

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From a friend of mine in the "rail supply industry" little difference in bids for wider Wales and franchise bids, however all different approaches to South Wales Metro ranging from keeping existing heavy rail lines as that to full LRT with other two going for mix and match of heavy rail and LRT.
Is there any more detail than that or is it all commertially confidential?
 

LNW-GW Joint

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From a friend of mine in the "rail supply industry" little difference in bids for wider Wales and franchise bids, however all different approaches to South Wales Metro ranging from keeping existing heavy rail lines as that to full LRT with other two going for mix and match of heavy rail and LRT.

Putting the decision right back in the WG's court. ;)
 

Gareth Marston

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Is there any more detail than that or is it all commertially confidential?

Two of the bidders come across as naive on the signalling aspects of running UK operations and seem a bit out of depth on whats is or isn't possible. No prizes for eliminating 2 out of the known 4 who already run UK trains, the same two are also making more effort in engaging with stakeholders.:idea:
 

Cardiff123

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After recently completing this consultation, the way the Valley lines are talked about, with the 'Core' valley lines 'north of Queen Street', being completely different and separate to 'everywhere else', with even the City line from Ninian Park to Radyr being it's own little spur all on it's own, is not encouraging.
 
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Gareth Marston

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from

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-news/pontypridd-home-transport-wales-headquarters-12764419http://

Hundreds of new jobs are set to come to Pontypridd as the town will be home to the new headquarters for Transport for Wales.

Transport for Wales, the next rail franchise and South Wales Metro operator, will be located at the Taff Vale building in the town, Economy Secretary Ken Skates has announced today.

The news comes ahead of a major speech by Mr Skates in which he will say that Wales must grow its regional econom

No further detail on having the HQ of the new franchise in Pontypridd in article- but clearly no commercial freedom for the franchise winner if true! What else has been specified already???:cry:

BBC running same story

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-39310454

Wonder if the folk that work in St Marys House and St Davids House in Cardiff had any say?
Compensation arrangements??
 
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Dai Corner

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from

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-news/pontypridd-home-transport-wales-headquarters-12764419http://



No further detail on having the HQ of the new franchise in Pontypridd in article- but clearly no commercial freedom for the franchise winner if true! What else has been specified already???:cry:

BBC running same story

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-39310454

Wonder if the folk that work in St Marys House and St Davids House in Cardiff had any say?
Compensation arrangements??

Firstly I wonder why it takes hundreds of civil servants to oversee the franchise.

Secondly, perhaps they chose Pontypridd to avoid having to catch overcrowded trains into central Cardiff?
 

Gareth Marston

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Firstly I wonder why it takes hundreds of civil servants to oversee the franchise.

Secondly, perhaps they chose Pontypridd to avoid having to catch overcrowded trains into central Cardiff?

No- if you empty out ATW Head Office staff from Cardiff and transfer them to Pontypridd you get the 3 figure sum.
 

Dai Corner

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No- if you empty out ATW Head Office staff from Cardiff and transfer them to Pontypridd you get the 3 figure sum.

Ah, I had read it as TfW being located in Pontypridd and hadn't picked up that the franchisee would be co-located. :oops:
 

gareth950

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http://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-news/pontypridd-home-transport-wales-headquarters-12764419http://

No further detail on having the HQ of the new franchise in Pontypridd in article- but clearly no commercial freedom for the franchise winner if true! What else has been specified already???:cry:

Light rail up the valleys no matter what?

BBC running same story

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-39310454

Wonder if the folk that work in St Marys House and St Davids House in Cardiff had any say?
Compensation arrangements??

St. David's House on Wood Street in Cardiff is due to be demolished soon, but there's a glut of office space going up around Central Square, and St. David's House itself will just be replaced with more new offices.

Dai Corner said:
Firstly I wonder why it takes hundreds of civil servants to oversee the franchise.

Secondly, perhaps they chose Pontypridd to avoid having to catch overcrowded 2-car trams into central Cardiff?

I've corrected your post for you ;)
 
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Envoy

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They are building loads of office blocks in the vicinity of Cardiff Central station because it is the transport hub for SE Wales. Presumably, if ATW staff in the present HQ live in say Port Talbot, they will have to travel by train to Cardiff Central & then go on a valleys train to Pontypridd? Of course, many will say that this is taking too long and will drive along the M4 to J34 (Miskin) & then use the A473 to Pontypridd. This all rather defeats the object of building the office blocks by Cardiff Central and just adds to traffic congestion.
 
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