how do fare dodgers get away with it?

[b2311e]

Well quite - this is why it's difficult to judge. On Sunday evening the ticket barriers at Newcastle were broken and not accepting any Advance tickets: several people with clearly valid tickets weren't getting through, but (unusually) no staff were on the barriers.

Seen the barriers doing that at Lime St a few weeks ago, the one member of staff on gateline waving people through
Judging by the volume of passengers and the one open gate, I can't imagine it was the most thorough ticket check

 

[work-traveller]

Travelling from Manchester to Birmingham a few years ago, late afternoon on Cross Country in 1st class. A lady entered the carriage at Stoke-on-Trent and sat down. When the train manager asked to see her ticket a few minutes after leaving SoT, she showed a ticket to the manager. His response was 'this is for a journey from Birmingham to SoT, in standard class, dated for yesterday. Do you have a ticket for this journey?'. The lady then appeared not to understand what the manager was asking, so he said he'd go and get his ticket machine to sell her a ticket. This bit seemed to be understood without difficultly though, as she then left the carriage before the manager returned.

 

[al78]

It is trivial to fare dodge on certain routes, those which start and end at unmanned (and therefore unbarriered) stations, or anything that ends at Redhill where you can just nip out of the back exit on platform 3. I could likely dodge a Gomshall to Redhill fare for years without being challenged. It may even be possible to dodge a Redhill to Horsham fare if you catch one of the last trains at night, when the staff at Horsham will have gone home and the barriers will be open.

 

[londonbridge]

Have posted this before but back in the days before National rail accepted Oyster PAYG I used to work with a guy who did East Croydon-Clapham Junction-Kingston using a zones 5-6 travelcard (when he should have had a 2-6).

I also vaguely recall coming back from Victoria to Croydon, inspector came through after we left Clapham and a girl was muttering to her partner and panicking because she didn't have the right zones on her card, inspector just looked at her card and moved on so she got away with it.

 

[JaJaWa]

do any other TOCs than GA run the text reporting system if you suspect a fare dodger? It does of course rely on them being able to get enforcement to your train before the dodger scarpers

I think all the TOCs text schemes have been replaced with the national text 61016 for BTP.

 

[matt_world2004]

I had ome where I was quite young. Ticket inspector came through the train in a panic I couldn't find a ticket took about 10 minutes but eventually found it in my wallet it probably looked like I was stalling or something but it was just nerve.

 

[nanstallon]

The system relies on deterrence rather than catching everybody. I've often felt that it is easy to dodge paying in the late evening, when conductors usually can't be bothered to check tickets so if you are travelling between two stations that don't have barriers, you will normally get away with it if you are OK with being dishonest. However, you take a risk that the conductor might check and then if you had got on at a staffed station, you could have a problem. Deliberate fare evasion can lead to prosecution, not just a penalty fare, if they want to be nasty. Consequent loss of job and reputation is a more serious deterrent to some than to others.

As a lawyer, I never took that risk for obvious reasons!

 

[pompeyfan]

The system relies on deterrence rather than catching everybody. I've often felt that it is easy to dodge paying in the late evening, when conductors usually can't be bothered to check tickets so if you are travelling between two stations that don't have barriers, you will normally get away with it if you are OK with being dishonest. However, you take a risk that the conductor might check and then if you had got on at a staffed station, you could have a problem. Deliberate fare evasion can lead to prosecution, not just a penalty fare, if they want to be nasty. Consequent loss of job and reputation is a more serious deterrent to some than to others.

As a lawyer, I never took that risk for obvious reasons!

I think the comment about 'not being bothered' with checking tickets is a little harsh. The fact is that more people drink of an evening, and that someone who is intoxicated is more likely to be confrontational, if not more. Guards are actively told to avoid conflict, and one way of doing so is by not doing a full condition 2/condition 4 ticket check of potentially drunk or drugged up people.

 

[neilmc]

I "dodged" a fare in the West Of England a couple of years ago - I boarded and alighted at an unstaffed station with no ticket machine, and the guard was unable to get through the train to collect fares. I assume the TOC would consider this journey to be atypical and not worth bothering with, being content to pick up the majority of unpaid fares only at the larger stations with staff/barriers.

 

[yorkie]

I "dodged" a fare in the West Of England a couple of years ago - I boarded and alighted at an unstaffed station with no ticket machine, and the guard was unable to get through the train to collect fares. I assume the TOC would consider this journey to be atypical and not worth bothering with, being content to pick up the majority of unpaid fares only at the larger stations with staff/barriers.

If anyone is 'dodging', it is the TOC because they 'dodged' the opportunity to install ticket selling facilities at both the origin & destination!

 

[urbophile]

Quite inadvertently (I was not sent a reminder, and I forgot to check) I used an out of date Senior Railcard for several months. No-one ever looked closely enough at it (including me).

 

[Far north 37]

i believe in this case u surely must refer to you seeing the same person do thisday in day out. cause i dont believe in most cases no person could get away with this regulary without being caught

 

[soil]

Lots of ways to dodge. My 'dodgy' (but actually valid - wrong origin that is off-route) ticket was checked both ways recently and they didn't even blink. I don't think they necessarily look very hard. It was 'Wrong Origin' to 'Correct Destination'.

At barriered stations, you could get through using a ticket to/from the next station.

Any ideas if the following is an offence:

Imagine you hold a ticket between, say, Portsmouth and Redhill. Let's assume, for the sake of the example, that it's valid according to the National Routing Guide, via London Waterloo, and yet the ticket has no Maltese Cross and does not work barriers at Waterloo.

So to avoid confrontation you buy a ticket from Vaxuhall to London, which you use to pass through the barriers at London Waterloo. Your train does not call at Vauxhall (although it does pass through there). Have you committed an offence?

 

[Temple Meads]

something very odd about this thread.............

Indeed. I can't help thinking it reads as a veiled attempt to get advice on how to fare dodge.. Sorry if I'm wrong!

 

[gimmea50anyday]

When I travel from Overton (Hampshire) to Waterloo....

I used to live in Overton when I worked for Crosscountry ( was 10 year ago like...)

Used to drink in the old house at home. Occasionally worked the bar too...

 

[Chris M]

Quite inadvertently (I was not sent a reminder, and I forgot to check) I used an out of date Senior Railcard for several months. No-one ever looked closely enough at it (including me).

I did the same with a young persons railcard (more years ago than I care to remember). I'd been using it regularly on FGW (and Wessex?) services for a couple of months after it's expiry without an issue. Then the guard on an SWT service did look closely and told me it was out of date. I had another look at it and she was right. She confiscated that part of the card (not the photo bit) and charged me the difference between what I'd paid and the full fare. I wasn't given a penalty fare or anything like that.

 

[nanstallon]

I think the comment about 'not being bothered' with checking tickets is a little harsh. The fact is that more people drink of an evening, and that someone who is intoxicated is more likely to be confrontational, if not more. Guards are actively told to avoid conflict, and one way of doing so is by not doing a full condition 2/condition 4 ticket check of potentially drunk or drugged up people.

Point taken. The police and courts don't back you if you get thumped by some drunken idiot, so not checking tickets is understandable.

 

[rmt4ever]

i honestly dont know how,specially on east coast line from london how? It annoys me.

Don't let it bother you.. seriously, it's not worth it. If they let them get away with it, then it's the railways problem not yours

 

[leedslad82]

It's rare for tickets to be checked In the Leeds area in my experience. Even during daytime numerous guards just stay in their cabs between stations. On journeys into Leeds the often only come through train as it's approaching Leeds but not to check tickets but offering to sell tickets to anyone requiring one. Tailgating through the barriers at Leeds is rife from what I've seen as a passenger. Difficult one really as some people just don't want to pay so no matter what the railways do they will find a way to escape paying.

 

[4973]

I think the comment about 'not being bothered' with checking tickets is a little harsh. The fact is that more people drink of an evening, and that someone who is intoxicated is more likely to be confrontational, if not more. Guards are actively told to avoid conflict, and one way of doing so is by not doing a full condition 2/condition 4 ticket check of potentially drunk or drugged up people.

An XC TM once told me in all seriousness "I'm a Train Manager, it's not my job to check tickets'. Which seems to imply that person NEVER checked them, regardless of time of day.

 

[50010 Monarch]

An XC TM once told me in all seriousness "I'm a Train Manager, it's not my job to check tickets'. Which seems to imply that person NEVER checked them, regardless of time of day.

So who has the job of checking tickets on XC services then?

 

[Deepgreen]

i honestly dont know how,specially on east coast line from london how? It annoys me.

It depends on the will to escape payment of the people concerned, luck, aggression, deviousness and a lack of ticket checks.

I assume every TOC/route is different, but, for example, GTR is pretty much a free-for-all in first class now - I understand that all the TTIs have been made into OBSs, and I have yet to witness any OBS carrying out anything other than repeating the recorded announcements (often badly) on the countless trains I have used where they have been deployed. Most passengers seem oblivious to their surroundings anyway, as the 'phone screen trumps everything else.

 

[Deepgreen]

Don't let it bother you.. seriously, it's not worth it. If they let them get away with it, then it's the railways problem not yours

That's the spirit. It's society's problem when parasites prevail.

 

[nanstallon]

That's the spirit. It's society's problem when parasites prevail.

This may have something to do with privatisation. Under BR it was more 'our railway', but now it's seen as 'only' a private company losing out. Especially with the British capitalist system of managerial bonuses regardless of performance, and companies keeping any profits and the taxpayer meeting any losses. Alienation, in a word.

 

[infobleep]

In a lot of cases, passengers believe it's the train companies responsiblity to sell tickets, not the passengers responsibility to buy.

Sometimes you literally cannot get through the train systematically to pick everyone up. There's also the obvious toilet hiding, doubling up, using a Z1 or short distance season to pop barriers.

There's also a lot of groups travelling around the network intentionally fare evading, and in some cases bragging to railstaff, as if they expect them to confront them in some form. No one gets paid enough to make assult acceptable, and if you've got that mantra and personsality, then by all means crack on.....

I came across that recently. Someone had been hiding in the loo and as we neared the final stop, Guildford, they went into the guards booth, this being a 450 and said some rude words down the mic, along with a thanks for the free train ride. He claimed to be at the bavk but was in fact at the front. The guard did check tickets but there wasn't time to go back down. Earlier in the journey the guard would have had to fight through the passengers to check tickets, this being a Waterloo to Guildford via Woking stopper, which is always very busy with commuters until about Walton on Thames.

The person then walked down the ramp and I don't know what we did next. If he went to the front of the station he would have hit barriers. I did once see someone jump over the side though.

If he went out the back, via the footbridge, he'd meet someone too, with no side barrier to jump over.

However if he exited at the commuter entrance, only open during the week day peaks, he'd have potentially got away without paying. I don't know how well he knew the station layout.

Personally I think he should have just gone to a fares workshop and figured out the routing guide. OK he might not get free travel, which is illegal but at least he'd save money, which if you play by the rules, is legal!

 

[pompeyfan]

Guildford, Farncombe and Godalming have been blighted lately by the Matthews family, and one of the delightful individuals has gained an L-Key, at best he's been using the PA to shout obscenities, at worst he's been keying on at door panels and pressing the guards door control buttons. If it keeps on, measures will have to be taken like only using the cab controls at these stations as these can stay live and don't switch off over a certain speed.

 

[tsr]

Guildford, Farncombe and Godalming have been blighted lately by the Matthews family, and one of the delightful individuals has gained an L-Key, at best he's been using the PA to shout obscenities, at worst he's been keying on at door panels and pressing the guards door control buttons. If it keeps on, measures will have to be taken like only using the cab controls at these stations as these can stay live and don't switch off over a certain speed.

That, to be honest, has got to be one of the worst types of antisocial and irresponsible behaviour I've ever heard of, and surely you're in desperate need of a crackdown by the BTP and your in-house enforcement people. I wonder if the same tribe has been responsible for the occasional spates of graffiti and faredodging on the peak time Southern services to Guildford. There have certainly been a few reports of people wasting a lot of conductors' time down there recently (though rest assured this is being escalated where possible).

Anyway, if I caught someone doing that on one of my trains, the thing wouldn't be moving from the next stop until police attendance and possibly requesting attendance from fitters to check the train (door controls on some stock have a funny habit of playing up at unexpected intervals, if they've been tampered with), which would probably focus a few minds on dealing with the culprits...

As a side note, that's why I'm glad that most of the stock I sign needs two keys to get anything working on the panels.

 

[pompeyfan]

BTP and RCOs are taking regular patrols, and I was told the 'ringleader' is now under curfew and officially banned, but they don't seem to take notice. Guards have been assaulted by them as well, ranging from punches to full beer bottles being thrown at staff so they clearly stop at nothing. It's not been helped that there's also another new group from Leigh Park in Havant causing similar issues of ASB... with these parties lack of tickets isn't an issue.

 

[infobleep]

Guildford, Farncombe and Godalming have been blighted lately by the Matthews family, and one of the delightful individuals has gained an L-Key, at best he's been using the PA to shout obscenities, at worst he's been keying on at door panels and pressing the guards door control buttons. If it keeps on, measures will have to be taken like only using the cab controls at these stations as these can stay live and don't switch off over a certain speed.

Can't they take the L-key off them or is it not illegal to own an L-key?

 

[infobleep]

That, to be honest, has got to be one of the worst types of antisocial and irresponsible behaviour I've ever heard of, and surely you're in desperate need of a crackdown by the BTP and your in-house enforcement people. I wonder if the same tribe has been responsible for the occasional spates of graffiti and faredodging on the peak time Southern services to Guildford. There have certainly been a few reports of people wasting a lot of conductors' time down there recently (though rest assured this is being escalated where possible).

Out of interest, are there times and cases where its not possible to escalate it?