how do fare dodgers get away with it?

[infobleep]

BTP and RCOs are taking regular patrols, and I was told the 'ringleader' is now under curfew and officially banned, but they don't seem to take notice. Guards have been assaulted by them as well, ranging from punches to full beer bottles being thrown at staff so they clearly stop at nothing. It's not been helped that there's also another new group from Leigh Park in Havant causing similar issues of ASB... with these parties lack of tickets isn't an issue.

It's good that one has been banned but not good that they are assaulting staff. I'm sure the staff wouldn't want to go down and confront them.

I was in the same carriage but when the guard came through it didn't dawn on mr what was happening. However even if it did, would I want to say something in case I got assaulted? I was alone at that point. Hardly anyone on the train as Guildford is the terminus.

 

[Deepgreen]

BTP and RCOs are taking regular patrols, and I was told the 'ringleader' is now under curfew and officially banned, but they don't seem to take notice. Guards have been assaulted by them as well, ranging from punches to full beer bottles being thrown at staff so they clearly stop at nothing. It's not been helped that there's also another new group from Leigh Park in Havant causing similar issues of ASB... with these parties lack of tickets isn't an issue.

Wow, that will certainly make him think twice (!!). How does anyone think that 'banning' these people makes the slightest difference? Nothing short of prosecution will even dent the issue. CCTV?

 

[Deepgreen]

I came across that recently. Someone had been hiding in the loo and as we neared the final stop, Guildford, they went into the guards booth, this being a 450 and said some rude words down the mic, along with a thanks for the free train ride. He claimed to be at the bavk but was in fact at the front. The guard did check tickets but there wasn't time to go back down. Earlier in the journey the guard would have had to fight through the passengers to check tickets, this being a Waterloo to Guildford via Woking stopper, which is always very busy with commuters until about Walton on Thames.

The person then walked down the ramp and I don't know what we did next. If he went to the front of the station he would have hit barriers. I did once see someone jump over the side though.

If he went out the back, via the footbridge, he'd meet someone too, with no side barrier to jump over.

However if he exited at the commuter entrance, only open during the week day peaks, he'd have potentially got away without paying. I don't know how well he knew the station layout.

Personally I think he should have just gone to a fares workshop and figured out the routing guide. OK he might not get free travel, which is illegal but at least he'd save money, which if you play by the rules, is legal!

I'm not sure if you are joking here. Do you really think that such people are simply trying to travel with the cheapest ticket, rather than being serial criminals?

 

[Master29]

This may have something to do with privatisation. Under BR it was more 'our railway', but now it's seen as 'only' a private company losing out. Especially with the British capitalist system of managerial bonuses regardless of performance, and companies keeping any profits and the taxpayer meeting any losses. Alienation, in a word.

It`s nothing to do with nationalisation or privatisation. Serial chancers exist either way and couldn`t give a rats bottom about who gets the money from the railways. Only just so that they don`t get to pay any.

 

[tsr]

Out of interest, are there times and cases where its not possible to escalate it?

Well, if you don't have a good description of the culprit, and don't exactly know when it happened so as to check CCTV, vandalism issues could be hard to escalate, for example.

 

[johntea]

It's rare for tickets to be checked In the Leeds area in my experience. Even during daytime numerous guards just stay in their cabs between stations. On journeys into Leeds the often only come through train as it's approaching Leeds but not to check tickets but offering to sell tickets to anyone requiring one. Tailgating through the barriers at Leeds is rife from what I've seen as a passenger. Difficult one really as some people just don't want to pay so no matter what the railways do they will find a way to escape paying.

As much as I hate the STM revenue staff Northern certainly have them deployed now at a lot of stations around the Leeds network, and at certain stations they're often working much later than you expect.

As an example, I just travelled from Harrogate to Starbeck at 7:30pm this evening and had my ticket checked before being allowed access to the platforms (They are getting ticket barriers at Harrogate soon too). Not that I would personally ever attempt to dodge it but that is a £2 fare that previously I suspect most people would just 'chance'

 

[Kite159]

As much as I hate the STM revenue staff Northern certainly have them deployed now at a lot of stations around the Leeds network, and at certain stations they're often working much later than you expect.

As an example, I just travelled from Harrogate to Starbeck at 7:30pm this evening and had my ticket checked before being allowed access to the platforms (They are getting ticket barriers at Harrogate soon too). Not that I would personally ever attempt to dodge it but that is a £2 fare that previously I suspect most people would just 'chance'

Agreed, any dodgers aiming towards the front of the service or striking it lucky when a pair of units roll up without gangways [150/1s, 142s].

 

[exile]

Very easy to fare-dodge on Northern trains in the evening. I've often not paid despite being ready and willing to do so.

 

[infobleep]

I'm not sure if you are joking here. Do you really think that such people are simply trying to travel with the cheapest ticket, rather than being serial criminals?

I was being serious but joky too, if that's possible but at that point I didn't know they were a serial criminal, abusing staff. That takes it to a different level in my book.

I also wondered back then if they would have the intelligence to understand a routing guide but then I thought that's being stereotypical so I ignored such a thought. Then I find out he's a serial offender.....

 

[infobleep]

Well, if you don't have a good description of the culprit, and don't exactly know when it happened so as to check CCTV, vandalism issues could be hard to escalate, for example.

I can understand that. I have face blindness which means I don't do descriptions of people very well from memory.

 

[infobleep]

I at Guildford station the other evening and there was someone at the back entrance after 7pm. That's unusual from previous experience but it highlights how random things do happen so one can never be sure there won't be someone there. I think by 10pm though one could definitely be more sure.

 

[yorkie]

I was being serious but joky too, if that's possible but at that point I didn't know they were a serial criminal, abusing staff. That takes it to a different level in my book.

Well you knew this much...

..., they went into the guards booth, this being a 450 and said some rude words down the mic, along with a thanks for the free train ride....

...so, I'm rather confused!

 

[jimbo99]

As a lawyer, I never took that risk for obvious reasons!

Increasingly more and more jobs require DRB checks. Whether or not the matter is recorded, and whether or not potential employers should/do take into account what they find, this fear alone is enough to put many people off.

Having said that, when I was studying law, a "mouthy" girl regularly dodged her fare into London. Her "defence" was that she was a student and couldn't pay her fare. One day she got stopped. Since we'd had a human rights lecture the previous day, she mouthed off about the guy abusing her human rights and then cried. She got away with it. The same day she bought a new handbag because "I needed cheering up".

She's now a solicitor with a magic circle firm.

 

[Condor7]

We just travelled yesterday from Preston to Penrith North Lakes a journey of approx. 50 mins. No ticket check was made and when we alighted at Penrith we used the underpass which leads directly to a unmanned exit. While usually open it is currently closed with a hand written sign asking us to leave via the main entrance passed the ticket office due to fare evasion. We did as instructed however no station staff asked to see our tickets.

From my own experience and judging by other comments I am not alone, the TOC need to do a lot more to collect fares while on the train. Would the guard really be so busy he could not walk the length of the train in 50 mins?

 

[rebmcr]

Having said that, when I was studying law, a "mouthy" girl regularly dodged her fare into London. Her "defence" was that she was a student and couldn't pay her fare. One day she got stopped. Since we'd had a human rights lecture the previous day, she mouthed off about the guy abusing her human rights and then cried. She got away with it. The same day she bought a new handbag because "I needed cheering up".

She's now a solicitor with a magic circle firm.

Absolute scum.

 

[MCSHF007]

Increasingly more and more jobs require DRB checks. Whether or not the matter is recorded, and whether or not potential employers should/do take into account what they find, this fear alone is enough to put many people off.

Having said that, when I was studying law, a "mouthy" girl regularly dodged her fare into London. Her "defence" was that she was a student and couldn't pay her fare. One day she got stopped. Since we'd had a human rights lecture the previous day, she mouthed off about the guy abusing her human rights and then cried. She got away with it. The same day she bought a new handbag because "I needed cheering up".

She's now a solicitor with a magic circle firm.

Solicitors condoning Theft. Tut tut.

Wish someone could have taken a dump in her precious new handbag.

 

[Bromley boy]

Increasingly more and more jobs require DRB checks. Whether or not the matter is recorded, and whether or not potential employers should/do take into account what they find, this fear alone is enough to put many people off.

Having said that, when I was studying law, a "mouthy" girl regularly dodged her fare into London. Her "defence" was that she was a student and couldn't pay her fare. One day she got stopped. Since we'd had a human rights lecture the previous day, she mouthed off about the guy abusing her human rights and then cried. She got away with it. The same day she bought a new handbag because "I needed cheering up".

She's now a solicitor with a magic circle firm.

Well, if she ends up with a conviction for a dishonesty offence, it'll be goodbye legal career!

 

[Joe Paxton]

Guildford, Farncombe and Godalming have been blighted lately by the Matthews family, ...

This comment has piqued my curiosity...

 

[pompeyfan]

This comment has piqued my curiosity...

They are apparently a well known (read troublesome) travelling family based in the Farncombe/Godalming area. I don't know that much about them other than what I've said.

 

[GodAtum]

They are apparently a well known (read troublesome) travelling family based in the Farncombe/Godalming area. I don't know that much about them other than what I've said.

There was a large police presence there last afternoon looking for someone.

 

[al78]

Having said that, when I was studying law, a "mouthy" girl regularly dodged her fare into London. Her "defence" was that she was a student and couldn't pay her fare. One day she got stopped. Since we'd had a human rights lecture the previous day, she mouthed off about the guy abusing her human rights and then cried. She got away with it.

Thereby validating her behaviour, and she knows all she has to do is appeal to sympathy by turning on the waterworks and she can do what she likes.

 

[Deepgreen]

Well, if she ends up with a conviction for a dishonesty offence, it'll be goodbye legal career!

Surely her offence(s) were a long time ago and are now long past any chance of prosecution? I don't see any threat from them to her present career.

 

[Bromley boy]

Surely her offence(s) were a long time ago and are now long past any chance of prosecution? I don't see any threat from them to her present career.

In terms of the specific event described, you're quite right. However if she continued with this kind of behaviour the threat to her career would be very real.

There was a solicitor struck-off recently for shop-lifting a pair of sunglasses. Quite rightly, in my view. A solicitor is an officer of the court and as such they must be beyond reproach.

Hopefully she's grown out of it.

EDIT: this is the case I was thinking about.

She had been cautioned for the offence in question and this was sufficient for her to be struck-off the roll.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.le...g-sunglasses-in-compliance-questionnaire/amp/

 

[tsr]

From my own experience and judging by other comments I am not alone, the TOC need to do a lot more to collect fares while on the train. Would the guard really be so busy he could not walk the length of the train in 50 mins?

As I understand it, VTWC Train Managers don't get any form of needs breaks rostered outside the time they spend on trains, thus they are obliged to select appropriate times to manage their workload and take breaks when onboard train services. If my information is still correct on this one (and though it definitely sounds weird, compared to most other TOCs bar perhaps the Caledonian Sleeper, I've recently been assured it is correct), it could be entirely possible that the TM was legitimately not required to be with passengers.

However, all that being said, there is also every chance they were attending to another passenger (perhaps someone who was in dispute about another ticket), fixing a problem with the train environment, sorting something out with one of their colleagues, or - I'm afraid it happens - they'd had a difficult day and didn't want to focus on commercial duties for any more of it.

 

[LLivery]

This may have something to do with privatisation. Under BR it was more 'our railway', but now it's seen as 'only' a private company losing out. Especially with the British capitalist system of managerial bonuses regardless of performance, and companies keeping any profits and the taxpayer meeting any losses. Alienation, in a word.

I agree with that. Lots of people just see rail companies as useless, late, overpriced ba****ds and couldn't care less. Right or wrong, in many parts not paying is just a way of life and think nothing of it. Its seen as 'well, if you can't be asked to put barriers or have regular inspections, why would I be a mug a pay or something I see as rubbish anyway'?

After getting on the same trains from the Midlands to South London on the same day for 5 weeks, I know I could get on three trains covering 130 miles without paying. People get away with it because there are hardly any ticket checks or ticket barriers in many areas, apart from at the major stations. Just a couple minutes think, I know I could get to loads of places in London and surrounds without paying. People know the only way they could get caught would be with RPI checks, which apart from on LO are rare and even then people notice them a mile off and avoid them.

Whilst that said, I'd never condone not paying.

 

[bunnahabhain]

As I understand it, VTWC Train Managers don't get any form of needs breaks rostered outside the time they spend on trains, thus they are obliged to select appropriate times to manage their workload and take breaks when onboard train services. If my information is still correct on this one (and though it definitely sounds weird, compared to most other TOCs bar perhaps the Caledonian Sleeper, I've recently been assured it is correct), it could be entirely possible that the TM was legitimately not required to be with passengers.

However, all that being said, there is also every chance they were attending to another passenger (perhaps someone who was in dispute about another ticket), fixing a problem with the train environment, sorting something out with one of their colleagues, or - I'm afraid it happens - they'd had a difficult day and didn't want to focus on commercial duties for any more of it.

Similar situation with Train Manager on the EMT franchise, they have access to kitchen and refreshment facilities onboard so sold their PNBs years ago under MML. Senior Conductors on the other hand retain all PNBs as there is no access to anything onboard the train, I know under Central Trains days where a service was late and trolley facilities were provided you were permitted to take up to £10 worth of goods from the trolley in lieu of a PNB, or claim the length of the PNB in overtime if you chose to continue the diagram without the break to prevent the next service being late.

 

[ScotGG]

Under Network South East the notion of checking tickets and collecting fares went completely by the board in many areas. (In some cases it was simply impossible to buy a ticket.) Indeed I put down some of the claims about increased patronage after 1993 purely down to a decision by the new TOCs to actually make some effort to charge people to travel. In its last NSE years the old SR Central Division was a complete disgrace in customer service and security terms. Sadly in recent years that early post-privatisation keenness has gone to be replaced by, well, something not unlike what prevailed under Network South East!

On what is now SE Metro I don't think I knew hardly anyone who paid back then unless going to central London and even then many blagged it! Free journeys became so embedded in the culture of many as no checks ever took place after DOO came in.

Not much has changed really since then and it's the same now in many ways. I'd say only 25% of stations have barriers that are manned most of the day and do not have an open side entrance. Only terminals seem staffed until about 11pm - other very busy stations till 8 and the majority without barriers or with other entrances.

 

[Deepgreen]

In terms of the specific event described, you're quite right. However if she continued with this kind of behaviour the threat to her career would be very real.

There was a solicitor struck-off recently for shop-lifting a pair of sunglasses. Quite rightly, in my view. A solicitor is an officer of the court and as such they must be beyond reproach.

Hopefully she's grown out of it.

EDIT: this is the case I was thinking about.

She had been cautioned for the offence in question and this was sufficient for her to be struck-off the roll.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.le...g-sunglasses-in-compliance-questionnaire/amp/

Of course, yes.

 

[3141]

On what is now SE Metro I don't think I knew hardly anyone who paid back then unless going to central London and even then many blagged it! Free journeys became so embedded in the culture of many as no checks ever took place after DOO came in.

I remember a case in London a few years back when somebody was fined for evading a fare on the Underground, and it was reported that when apprehended he exclaimed "This is London - nobody pays!"

Perhaps one good thing about Brexit will be that after we've withdrawn from the European Court of Human Rights these people will be routinely tasered. [Should I put a smiley in there, or not...?]

 

[BanburyBlue]

I haven't read the entire thread, so apologies if this is repeating previously posted comments.

But, it does seem strange to me how (some) people's morals change depending on the scenario. If you read a lot of these posts about 'help - I've been caught by a ticket inspector', it seems people feel the railway have to make you pay, rather than 'you know you need to pay'. I was in a different Debenhams a few weeks back and I couldn't find the tills. I didn't walk out of shop and think "no one has caught me, that's okay then".

Not sure why this is? I do think the railways have to bear some of the blame with the open stations initiative in the 80's(?). And allowing people to buy tickets on board (accept that in some scenarios this is the way it work for unstaffed , no payment machine stations etc). When I see people buy tickets on, for example XC services, they've normally got on at staffed stations. I rarely heard (if fact I've never heard) a train manager say "you should have bought your ticket at the station".

Doesn't excuse people's morals though.