Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Then get them under RoRA and actually prosecute.
It's the £80 "blackmail" I don't like.
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Arriva Rail North DOO
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Then get them under RoRA and actually prosecute.
It's the £80 "blackmail" I don't like.
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RailUK Forums
First time round its a requirement to pay the fare only, the FTP form acts as a warning.
No; but there will be other good reasons why the TVM fleet is unlikely to increase in size anyway. I cannot say more.
Is that on TRUMPed up charges?
plymothian
Member
Why aren't there more PERTIS machines outside of the NSE area?
If a full-blown TVM is out of the question, then the nominal PERTIS is surely better than nothing, save from the "hassle" of someone having to empty and fill them.
Even if security of the nominal amounts of money in it is a problem, they can be free - just push to take a voucher, exchange for a fare.
If a full-blown TVM is out of the question, then the nominal PERTIS is surely better than nothing, save from the "hassle" of someone having to empty and fill them.
Even if security of the nominal amounts of money in it is a problem, they can be free - just push to take a voucher, exchange for a fare.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
Not sure if that's a solution. At some stations you'd probably get groups of teenagers emptying the machine of all the vouchers if you could just take one without inserting any coins.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
We used to have PERTIS machines on the Airedale and Wharfedale Lines, back when Northern Spirit had those lines as Penalty Fare lines.
And yes, vandalism of them at some of the unstaffed stations (Frizinghall in particular) eventually meant they were taken out and the Penalty Fare scheme was abandoned by Northern. It wasn't even stealing the money, it was things like shoving chewing gum in the coin slots, things like that. As well as printing off reams of vouchers.
To be honest, even when they were there most people (me included) just shoved 5p in them.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
If the process of issuing one is sufficiently long-winded, I doubt it. It needn't be "push the button for one, keep hold for a long time for 10". A touch screen interface could be used, using relatively cheap Android tablet based functionality, with a flow along the lines of:
"Which direction are you travelling" (towards Manchester/towards Southport)
"How many passengers are travelling together" (enter a number)
"Please note that you must purchase a ticket for your full journey at the first opportunity and produce this Permit when you do if requested. Please note you may receive a Penalty Fare or be prosecuted if you do not, or if you attempt to leave your destination station without purchasing a ticket there if there is an opportunity to do so." (press OK)
<ticket is issued with the number of passengers on it>
That's probably long-winded enough that the local yoof would soon get bored and there wouldn't end up being a load dumped on the floor, but not long winded enough for it to be annoying.
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northwichcat
Veteran Member
But how much would that save over installing a card TVM and which gives an option to print a voucher if you don't want to pay by card?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Not an awful lot, though such a machine wouldn't need to be online to carry out card verifications or TOD.
wingsoveryorks
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I think we are going some way off subject here, so lets just get back on.
1) Northern are still recruiting conductors in big numbers.
2) DCO target on Northern is 50% of total mileage at the end of the franchise, not 50% of services.
3) Northern management are saying that no decisions have yet been taken regarding any aspect of where, how, or what routes DCO will be introduced. There is no reason not to believe this at this stage.
4) The new units when they appear are going to be based at Newton Heath and Allerton. If you work on the same principle of how Northern diagram present units, it would be fair to assume that the majority of DCO will be introduced on Northern connect and services around Manchester, Liverpool, Blackpool and Lancashire. There is some possibility of introducing some DCO on the Leeds North West Triangle, but this would bring it's own issues due to the diversity of units used and routes signed. 333's are not set up for DCO as yet, and may never be so.
5) Northernrail is not like Southern. It heavily depends on revenue from on board staff, and STM's staff positioned in key locations in the morning rush. People say DCO is the thin end of the wedge, in the long term perhaps, but not in this franchise's lifetime it isn't. Northern has been starved of investment for decades unlike the South of England. It will take years to get anywhere near where London based services are.
1) Northern are still recruiting conductors in big numbers.
2) DCO target on Northern is 50% of total mileage at the end of the franchise, not 50% of services.
3) Northern management are saying that no decisions have yet been taken regarding any aspect of where, how, or what routes DCO will be introduced. There is no reason not to believe this at this stage.
4) The new units when they appear are going to be based at Newton Heath and Allerton. If you work on the same principle of how Northern diagram present units, it would be fair to assume that the majority of DCO will be introduced on Northern connect and services around Manchester, Liverpool, Blackpool and Lancashire. There is some possibility of introducing some DCO on the Leeds North West Triangle, but this would bring it's own issues due to the diversity of units used and routes signed. 333's are not set up for DCO as yet, and may never be so.
5) Northernrail is not like Southern. It heavily depends on revenue from on board staff, and STM's staff positioned in key locations in the morning rush. People say DCO is the thin end of the wedge, in the long term perhaps, but not in this franchise's lifetime it isn't. Northern has been starved of investment for decades unlike the South of England. It will take years to get anywhere near where London based services are.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
This part is certainly true. At the point that the previous Northern franchise was let, many were expecting severe cuts and even line and station closures. The franchise was in the end let on a "make do and mend" basis, and yet growth has been massive - as I've said before to remind yourself of just how quiet and depressing regional routes in the North were in the 1990s, watch Victoria Wood's Great Railway Journey.
Now there has been that growth, investment needs to catch up - as there's only going to be more. The car is really going out of fashion with younger people, and the railway needs to pick up on that and run with it.
That part is certainly not true. At least there are some routes that must go DCO as part of the Franchise Agreement. That can be changed, but it would need a damn good reason, because Change is an expensive process.
Indeed. Plus there are likely to be further initiatives in this area. I speak to a lot of ticketing people and the TVM is starting to be seen as "old tech". Some recent bids have gone the traditional route and put in loads more TVMs; others have gone beyond that and are imagining a time in the near future when the TVM fleet starts to shrink.
sandyravage
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The requirement to introduce DCO of 50% of network miles has to be done by the 1st of Jan 2020, not franchise end . Also the east will see plenty of the new trains. They are planned to run on the Leeds-Lincoln, Sheffield -Hull, Sheffield -Doncaster (fast), York-Bpn, Nott-Bradford, Lds-Skipton/Ilkley and Leeds-Doncaster. The first services are due to run by May 2018. Does anyone really believe Northern don't know the plan when the fleet plan for new trains is already out there.
wingsoveryorks
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The first of the new trains is not planned to come into service before May 2018. Many of the so called new trains for some of those routes are anything but new, they are 'hand me downs' from other TOC's. Therefore Northern are at the mercy of them getting new stock, and some are already six month behind. Jan 2020 is wishful thinking at best. Northern do not have a good track record of bringing plans to fruition quickly. DCO is not something you can put in place quickly, there is no infrastructure whatsoever for DCO anywhere on Northern. Many of the stations are wholly unsuitable with very poor lighting and sighting issues.
Jan 2020? Dream on.
hairyhandedfool
Established Member
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- 14 Apr 2008
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- 8,837
Arriva bid on a franchise where DOO/DCO was in the contract, for them not to have a plan going into the franchise would be foolhardy, 'though they might come up with an alternative. Given how little the management give away, even to staff, I do not believe there isn't a plan, they just don't want to share it yet.
wingsoveryorks
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We know there is a plan. That plan is fairly well advanced also. It is the timings that are questionable. Arriva don't want war to break out before they have any DCO units. I know one route DCO is not going due to station difficulties, although many think it is. Some secrets leak out from some surprising sources.
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ANorthernGuard
Established Member
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- 8 Oct 2010
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Sadly War has already started which the ballot result will most likely show. People want answers from Arriva but none are forthcoming which gets people even more worried about their jobs. Its a horrible situation.
sandyravage
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All the routes I have mentioned are planned for the new build trains, not cascades. I have the fleet plan at hand. If you want a copy pm me your email.
wingsoveryorks
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War has not started with me, and not many of my colleagues are worried either. Some accept changes are coming, some more determined to fight them than others. Nobody expects to lose their jobs.
You know, the thing about all this is that once strikes begin, talking stops. This is what happened at Southern, and as a result trench warfare broke out. I would much prefer the RMT to wait to see what is proposed and then set about reaching a sensible agreement that benefits staff, Arriva, and the travelling public. I'm not a sheep that will be led by anyone. I can make my own mind up when the time is right, and that time is not now.
I could have posted that myself.....when I got the RMT letter the other day ( and a number of texts ) it seems to me that Union leadership seems to want a battle irrespective of the troops.
Whilst I see and can appreciate this view . I think think some people feel that the company already has its plans in place for what it intends to do and so it should make them known to the RMT and its members so they can decide how it feels about those plans .
I also think that from the Unions point of view , the position is a complete objection to any introduction of DOO and the company have made clear that they are unable to guarantee a second safety critical member of train crew on every change responsible for dispatching the train . What more is there to talk about , the companies lack of guarantee flies right in the face of the unions policy in this area . As much as Id rather not be in this situation its inevitable when the company adopts a position that is in direct opposition of the RMT's stated view a dispute is then formed .
ANorthernGuard
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As a Rep said to me......Do we wait until the new DOO trains have been built? that says it all really
I actually made the point that no one knows what the roadmap is.....so not quite sure what we are fighting for. But if it turns out that no guard will lose his or her job and will retain the same salary and benefits as they do now with the removal of door duties, I m not quite sure what the point of industrial action would be?
I think the franchise knows what the roadmap is , why not just get it out in the open . Instead of people speculating . I think I know what it is , im sure you think you know what it is but unless they give the RMT anything concrete to work with then you just have to go off the facts that they have given , one of which is that their plan does not guarantee a second member of traincrew with responsibility for dispatch on every train . It could be that the franchise wants to retain a guarantee of a second member of traincew on every train with PTS, route and traction knowledge and even dispatch competency as a contingency if something goes wrong with the drivers PTI equipment .But unless they say this we are just guessing . At least the RMT has already put their cards on the table offering a scotrail deal which was flatly rejected .
It depends on what basis that salary retention deal is . Is it that you retain today's salary with no future increases for an indefinite period even the percentage based increases other grades will get . Or is it that you retain today's salary and get all future increases negotiated in the current way .
In the short run I am sure that having less duties/responsibilities but retaining salary would be great . In the long run as soon as the firing pistol goes off on the job being deskilled the countdown begins on the existence of the role altogether . It might take years until all routes and traction are DCO compatible . But at some point in the future the franchise will be let on the basis of reducing taxpayer subsidy even more and the role will be identified as one that can be scrapped or replaced by agency staff .
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Dont know to be honest.....but bear in mind that Northern have had a couple of rounds of Voluntary Severance in the last 3 years or so.....I ve no doubt some of the long time older guys would be glad to get out anyway with a decent pension etc.
If they offer anything like that in the near future . Not forgetting that they are often not available to traincrew even though we know exceptions are made . Also not forgetting that the overall plan in the franchise is for more employees than before , including conductors which they are recruiting like mad for at the moment . Besides the current mood seems to be that they have no cash for stuff like that .
And of course 50% of services will still be traditional guard and driver anyway.....and with the big increase in the numbers of services overall, I rather think that todays numbers of actual guards will be the same number when everything does eventually fall into place...which I suspect will be years off at the moment
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