Arriva Rail North DOO

[Bletchleyite]

But there are still times when you will be asked to sell more complicated intercity tickets and explain the relevant restrictions that go with them

There is that, but you don't need a booking office to be open all the time for that. Most people these days will buy online. A few will be rail commuters anyway and so will buy them in the city. That leaves a small number buying them at their local station, for whom opening a ticket office is not necessarily economic.

But the thrust of my proposal wasn't to close ticket offices, it was to leave them roughly as they are. What I would propose is that every station has at least one TVM, preferably two, regardless of whether it has other facilities. Then nobody can board a train having not had an opportunity to purchase a ticket.

I suppose you could instruct people in those situations to just buy the relevant single to a major destination with a booking office/excess window and excess it later but then are we changing the connection times at stations to accommodate this ?

Connections aren't planned anyway so there is nothing to change

My following comment is contingent on the penalty fare remains at its current level. Is it not possible that in allowing the prospect of ticket less travel to grow because you are meeting your own revenue targets by collecting PF's off some ticket less travellers that you create an environment of acceptable fare evasion which just invites the other kinds of anti social behaviour that is par for the course on metrolink ? I dont think anybody wants that , not the passengers , not the staff and not the business .

That's an interesting one. I think rather than fare evasion causing that, it's the open nature of Metrolink that causes it.

Would you object to a true penalty fare being handed out as often as and in the same situations as penalty fakes are ?

No, because there would be a proper appeals process, and if unpaid it would simply be a civil debt - so no blackmail about your day in Court unless it went way, way down the line.

Fair enough . Just from my perception browsing disputes and prosecutions it seems Northern are one of the franchises that have a reputation with regards to revenue protection . Which is why I questioned at first why you would want them to have a scheme that gives them what seems to be more power but you are right to point out that a proper penalty fare would have a more robust actual appeal process .

Yes, this is the key. Even now the scheme has better appeals, but I would improve it further.

 

[Starmill]

Yes, you are.

Northern's fare system is not complicated. It consists mainly of Anytime Day Returns and Off Peak Day Returns, with non-Day tickets over longer distances. Peak restrictions are fairly consistent, and there are few Advances.

This is definitely not true. Evening restrictions are different in Merseyside to Yorkshire and Manchester. Day tickets there are not restricted in the evenings, but are in the morning. The South Yorkshire Travelmaster is valid all day, and in the Tyne & Wear area nobody knows what the restrictions are on the Network One ticket. The GM Rail Ranger is not available at any machines, and according to NRE is evening restricted, but not according to any booking offices or local staff. There are sometimes restrictions on Duos when there are not on CDRs. In some cases there's a CDS and in some not. In many cases there continue to be no off-peak tickets. In several cases tickets valid almost exclusively on Northern are priced by some other TOC. There are anomalies at the margins, including Skipton, Knaresborough and journeys via York. Some regional tickets for which one needs Northern as a connection have afternoon restrictions (e.g. using Northern on a Manchester to Nottingham Super Off-Peak Day Return) with completely different restrictions to everything else. Some off-peak tickets are valid from 0830, some from 0900, 0915 and 0930. Rovers are mostly valid from 0845, but not always. There are several routes where seasons are missing where they really ought not to be. Indeed, there are some journeys such as Wilmslow to Eccles where there is simply no fare at all. There are actually quite a lot of Advance tickets, all over their network.

Do some more research before making sweeping claims!

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is definitely not true.

Well, I don't think what you've said is disastrously complicated - certainly not more so than other TOCs where TVMs are used as an opportunity to purchase at a station without staff - e.g. on LM south WCML services.

But if the fare structure is an issue - simplify it. Nationally that's a big project. But for Northern, it could deal with its own bit itself.

 

[northwichcat]

I do think the statutory PF is too low, which is I think what leads to Penalty Fakes.

Old Northern agreed with TfGM that first time 'offenders' would be sent a letter asking for payment for the unpaid fare and warning them next time they won't get off so lightly.

If they was adhered to properly that would seem to be a good idea. I think it just needs one addition being that when the fare is paid the passenger needs to be given the chance to confirm why they didn't have a ticket when they pay the fare. Then if they say something like they arrived at the southbound platform and didn't know there was a TVM on the northbound platform then they should look at putting up signs at that station to make it clear that a TVM is available.

 

[northwichcat]

you have to report a broken machine to travel if there isn't another one, not just board.

I'd like to see that work in practice if off the ticket machines on a route suffer an outage in the morning peak. Do they have a few hundred people manning the customer services phone number?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd like to see that work in practice if off the ticket machines on a route suffer an outage in the morning peak. Do they have a few hundred people manning the customer services phone number?

That's pretty rare, and they could make an announcement making an exception.

 

[scrapy]

That's pretty rare, and they could make an announcement making an exception.

Happens quite regularly on the Calder Valley route. Station after station with no functioning TVM. Thankfully Northern are investing in nearly 700 new machines covering all stations with more than 10 passengers a day and 60 stations where access between platforms is difficult will have machines on each platform. The machines will be cash and card. Just hope they have a decent maintenance contract and that revenue staff will know which machines are working.

 

[northwichcat]

Happens quite regularly on the Calder Valley route. Station after station with no functioning TVM. Thankfully Northern are investing in nearly 700 new machines covering all stations with more than 10 passengers a day and 60 stations where access between platforms is difficult will have machines on each platform. The machines will be cash and card. Just hope they have a decent maintenance contract and that revenue staff will know which machines are working.

The Parkeon TVMs have a red light showing when they are out-of-service and the out-of-service ones should be listed on journey check. However, that only works when they report themselves as out-of-service, there's many times they don't work and no light illuminates or the green one is showing despite them not functioning properly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Parkeon TVMs have a red light showing when they are out-of-service and the out-of-service ones should be listed on journey check. However, that only works when they report themselves as out-of-service, there's many times they don't work and no light illuminates or the green one is showing despite them not functioning properly.

There can also be invisible faults e.g. the touch screen being misaligned or a dirty/blocked and therefore non readable card slot.

That's why the Metrolink's proactive requirement to report is quite effective. It means they find out about faults.

 

[theblackwatch]

Well, I don't think what you've said is disastrously complicated - certainly not more so than other TOCs where TVMs are used as an opportunity to purchase at a station without staff - e.g. on LM south WCML services.

But if the fare structure is an issue - simplify it. Nationally that's a big project. But for Northern, it could deal with its own bit itself.

So if its not complex, how come even staff cannot get it right? (see my examples above)

 

[muz379]

There is that, but you don't need a booking office to be open all the time for that. Most people these days will buy online. A few will be rail commuters anyway and so will buy them in the city. That leaves a small number buying them at their local station, for whom opening a ticket office is not necessarily economic.

But the thrust of my proposal wasn't to close ticket offices, it was to leave them roughly as they are. What I would propose is that every station has at least one TVM, preferably two, regardless of whether it has other facilities. Then nobody can board a train having not had an opportunity to purchase a ticket.

But then if the booking office is there is can sell all the usual tickets as well as the occasional more complicated fare . Having a staff presence at stations also deters against anti social behaviour . Which is one thing a TVM cant really do , in fact in some cases and certain places they attract an anti social element who tamper with them as is the case on metrolink .

I agree that booking office should in most cases stay as they are , but i dont think that this is the long term plan . I have heard sounding that the plan is to aggressively push mobile ticket sales and the committent to have TVM's at every station bar a very few exceptions certainly leads you to think that this is going to become the preferred method of ticket sales for those without mobile tickets

Connections aren't planned anyway so there is nothing to change

Sorry I meant change the times allowed for connections

That's an interesting one. I think rather than fare evasion causing that, it's the open nature of Metrolink that causes it.

But there are large parts of the northern network that remain open and with no current plans in place for ticket gates .

Ticket gates it seems are being put in the main stations in bigger towns and cities . But we all know people will jump off a stop or two early and wing the rest of their journey if it means a free ride .

I think it will be easier to comment when more is known about what lines and how the DCO services are planned to be operated as well as how they foresee imposing the penalty fare .

The Parkeon TVMs have a red light showing when they are out-of-service and the out-of-service ones should be listed on journey check. However, that only works when they report themselves as out-of-service, there's many times they don't work and no light illuminates or the green one is showing despite them not functioning properly.

This only works if there is a telephone connection working for the TVM to self report . A lot of the issues that render TVM's , PIS's and booking office terminals unable to issue tickets are as a result of a telecoms failure .

 

[Starmill]

It may be worth pointing out that now that Pevensey Bay, Ashurst (Kent) and Doleham have TVMs, I think that means every Southern station has a machine. Even the ones in the middle of nowhere or with only a handful of trains a day.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It may be worth pointing out that now that Pevensey Bay, Ashurst (Kent) and Doleham have TVMs, I think that means every Southern station has a machine. Even the ones in the middle of nowhere or with only a handful of trains a day.

And that consistency allows a fairness and consistency in the way ticketless travel is handled.

I do think you could exempt entire lines as Paytrain routes - for example the S&C, Kirkby and Southport-Wigan (but not past Wigan - the guard would have to ensure he came through before that at least to hand out printed cards saying "I got on before Wigan" with the date on them), the Cumbrian Coast at least past Barrow etc - but that would again have to be consistent, for instance payment on board would be permitted even if you boarded the S&C train at Carlisle. (You'd have a job at Leeds as it's barriered).

Exempting individual stations would be too messy.

 

[HH]

Originally they were intended to be a sort of decriminalisation of ticketless travel - a genuine mistake that the inspector really believed to be a genuine mistake would be let off completely. That attitude has, in some TOCs, shifted rather.

That's certainly not been the view of the purpose of a Penalty Fare in all the time I've been on the railway. A Penalty Fare is like the Scottish "Not Proven" to my mind; i.e. "We think you're fare dodging, but we aren't certain, so take this fine as a warning".

 

[northwichcat]

the guard would have to ensure he came through before that at least to hand out printed cards saying "I got on before Wigan" with the date on them)

Unless the NCOT is changed I don't think passengers can be required to show them before purchasing a ticket. They would also be subject to abuse as passengers who alight at earlier stations could leave the cards on their seats which could be picked up by passengers who get on at later stations.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unless the NCOT is changed I don't think passengers can be required to show them before purchasing a ticket.

Change it, then.

They would also be subject to abuse as passengers who alight at earlier stations could leave the cards on their seats which could be picked up by passengers who get on at later stations.

They would be an emergency measure in the event of a large group boarding at the intermediate station or a failed ticket machine; in most cases a ticket would be sold before reaching Wigan. If not presented, it would be assumed the passenger had not boarded at the intermediate station, and a Penalty Fare would be charged.

 

[muz379]

And that consistency allows a fairness and consistency in the way ticketless travel is handled.

I do think you could exempt entire lines as Paytrain routes - for example the S&C, Kirkby and Southport-Wigan (but not past Wigan - the guard would have to ensure he came through before that at least to hand out printed cards saying "I got on before Wigan" with the date on them), the Cumbrian Coast at least past Barrow etc - but that would again have to be consistent, for instance payment on board would be permitted even if you boarded the S&C train at Carlisle. (You'd have a job at Leeds as it's barriered).

Exempting individual stations would be too messy.

The thing is with passenger numbers / overcrowding and non gangwayed stock there would be no way of guaranteeing that the guard would be able to get through to give everyone boarding pre wigan one of these cards plus how many would the guard have to carry and how would they be dated ? thats going to take some time on an early peak time train to write out and give out this many cards .

I can see them introducing it from like you said wigan into Manchester , So lets say someone arrives at Vic from say Walkden with no ticket then PF them , they could ofc say they got on at hoscar(no booking office or tvm atm) and buy a ticket . But declaring yourself as having travelled further than you have seems unnatural . And As we discussed earlier as long as the PF scheme catches enough people to justify its existence financially a little bit of abuse like this would be tolerable .

Exempting individual stations would be messy and silly . However never say never we know that the railway doesnt always favour the simplest solution .

 

[scrapy]

Change it, then.



They would be an emergency measure in the event of a large group boarding at the intermediate station or a failed ticket machine; in most cases a ticket would be sold before reaching Wigan. If not presented, it would be assumed the passenger had not boarded at the intermediate station, and a Penalty Fare would be charged.

All stations on the Southport and Kirkby lines should get ticket machines (New Lane only meets the criteria due to the apparant trebling of passenger numbers in the last 2 years due to people from Burscough buying tickets from there to avoid evening peak restrictions) with the exception of Hoscar. Putting a permit to travel machine at Hoscar would be a sensible solution. Handing out cards to passengers would be impossible due to number of non gangwayed units.

 

[Bletchleyite]

All stations on the Southport and Kirkby lines should get ticket machines (New Lane only meets the criteria due to the apparant trebling of passenger numbers in the last 2 years due to people from Burscough buying tickets from there to avoid evening peak restrictions) with the exception of Hoscar. Putting a permit to travel machine at Hoscar would be a sensible solution. Handing out cards to passengers would be impossible due to number of non gangwayed units.

I did wonder why New Lane's passenger numbers seemed quite high given that it barely needs to exist at all, given that it seems to serve a handful of farms and not a lot else[1] that isn't just as close to Burscough Bridge.

I wonder if there's scope to design a much cheaper, solar-powered, mobile-connected card-only TVM for this kind of location, perhaps costing a few hundred quid rather than the usual several thousand, and based on something like an Android tablet in a metal box? It could also issue PERTIS tickets for free on clicking OK to confirm "I wish to pay by cash, and confirm that I have sufficient cash to purchase a ticket for my journey, and am aware that if I do not I will be issued a Penalty Fare". At some locations that'd result in local yoof dumping them on the floor en masse, but there are ways to control that, and there aren't many local yoof hanging around New Lane, Bescar Lane and Hoscar.

[1] Martin Mere, I suppose, but it's quite a long walk.

 

[scrapy]

Northern's franchise requires new TVMs to accept both cash and card.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Northern's franchise requires new TVMs to accept both cash and card.

Is that (because of the risk of theft and the cost of maintenance of a physical mechanism and the cost of emptying) a dissuading factor to providing them at all?

LM stopped accepting cash at all of theirs, which means you can pay on board (actual meaning for journeys not involving Euston or New St: "not pay") if paying cash and the ticket office is closed. The cost of repairing attempts to steal the cash, maintaining coin mechanisms and emptying them clearly outweighed revenue lost by this.

Having them issue free[1] cash-only PERTIS would seem to be a reasonable mitigating factor against people lying about where they boarded.

[1] Yes, as I said above local yoof could trail them all on the floor, but enough car parks offer an hour free if you take a free ticket, and you don't see piles of those on the floor. If to get one you'd have to press enough buttons, they'd soon get bored.

 

[HH]

Northern's franchise requires new TVMs to accept both cash and card.

There'll be more, according to the Minister.

 

[HH]

Is that (because of the risk of theft and the cost of maintenance of a physical mechanism and the cost of emptying) a dissuading factor to providing them at all?

Not at all, because they're committed to providing a certain number.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not at all, because they're committed to providing a certain number.

But it might be a dissuading factor against adding extra ones? Or does it not apply to those in excess of the number specified?

 

[northwichcat]

Northern's franchise requires new TVMs to accept both cash and card.

It actually says they need to provide at least one TVM accepting 'multiple payment methods' at each station within the 'Metropolitan Service Area.' I'd question whether accepting payments via mobile phones and bank cards could count as two alternative methods.

This means they have to provide TVMs at Denton, Reddish South, Flowery Field (where old Northern removed the TVM from due to constant vandalism), Manchester United and Trafford Park. However, they don't have to provide them at stations like New Mills Newton, Prestbury or Knutsford. (Yes Knutsford had a Parkeon TVM fitted by old Northern but it's been out-of-service for months so possibly it can't be repaired.)

 

[Moonshot]

It actually says they need to provide at least one TVM accepting 'multiple payment methods' at each station within the 'Metropolitan Service Area.'

This means they have to provide TVMs at Denton, Reddish South, Flowery Field (where old Northern removed the TVM from due to constant vandalism), Manchester United and Trafford Park. However, they don't have to provide them at stations like New Mills Newton, Prestbury or Knutsford. (Yes Knutsford had a Parkeon TVM fitted by old Northern but it's been out-of-service for months so possibly it can't be repaired.)

Which obviously would be a complete waste of capital expenditure, and if installed, would obviously require monies to fund the operating costs as well.

 

[northwichcat]

Which obviously would be a complete waste of capital expenditure, and if installed, would obviously require monies to fund the operating costs as well.

Agreed. To me it looks like they've decided stations like Hale, Wilmslow, Poynton, Hazel Grove etc. form a boundary and every station within that boundary must have a TVM. I imagine in the future we'll see coloured areas on the Northern franchise map around Liverpool, Manchester and Leeds which will be penalty fare zones.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suspect nobody would take enforcement action against them were they to fail to install said TVMs at Denton and Reddish South. De minimis non curat lex, and all that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agreed. To me it looks like they've decided stations like Hale, Wilmslow, Poynton, Hazel Grove etc. form a boundary and every station within that boundary must have a TVM. I imagine in the future we'll see a coloured areas on the Northern franchise map around Liverpool, Manchester and Leeds which will be penalty fare zones.

That would be a good start and I expect is the intention.

Perhaps they could pack in the Penalty Fakes too?

 

[Moonshot]

That would be a good start and I expect is the intention.

Perhaps they could pack in the Penalty Fakes too?

Having a partner who works on the team who enforces these, its suprising how many multiple offenders there are.......