Glasgow airport link

[XC90]

BBC reporting a £144m proposal for a tram link between Paisley Gilmour Street and Glasgow airport has been unveiled. Glasgow city council supporting this as part of their city deal.

 

[clc]

Yet the council still hasn't produced a fully costed business case.

 

[XC90]

Waste of money. A bus currently does what the tram will do. Who wants to load their luggage on to a train at Glasgow then unload at Paisley to reload it on a tram to the airport? The express bus direct from Glasgow to the airport is sufficient.

Direct train service to the airport which can be accessed by services from the central belt, or nothing! Anything else is a waste of time and money.

 

[Clansman]

Here we go again.

Should never of shelved the rail link plans. Could've had it up and running by now.

A rail link is definitely needed but to change at Paisley for a tram kind of defeats the purpose of having a direct link from the city centre..unless they are going to run to Central as Tram-Trains.

I can imagine how this will look already;

-Delayed
-Overbudget
-Public Enquiry into public mismanagement
-Slaughter of the SNP on these forums.

 

[Altnabreac]

Scotland's Transport Secretary Humza Yousaf said he would be working with Renfrewshire and Glasgow City Councils and the airport on the plans.

"I look forward to continuing to work with the project team in order to assist them produce a robust and transparent business case which clearly sets out the impacts and a realistic and well informed assessment of all costs of any proposals to ensure informed decisions are made."

That's the important bit in here. The current draft business case for tram train does not identify any spare capacity on the Paisley - Glasgow rail corridor, any spare capacity for Tram Trains at Glasgow Central station or any alternatives such as street running in Glasgow. The BCR for tram train does not include any costs for providing capacity on Paisley corridor, Glasgow Central or Glasgow street running and is based purely on the cost of providing the new track from Paisley to the airport and hoping capacity elsewhere appears magically from thin air.

Once a full business case looks at these costs the BCR will plummet and the PRT solution will be adopted instead. In the short term however it is a political football with the council elections coming up in May 2017 so no one is willing to point out the current BCR is utterly fictional.

 

[marks87]

Waste of money. A bus currently does what the tram will do. Who wants to load their luggage on to a train at Glasgow then unload at Paisley to reload it on a tram to the airport? The express bus direct from Glasgow to the airport is sufficient.

Direct train service to the airport which can be accessed by services from the central belt, or nothing! Anything else is a waste of time and money.

Here we go again.

Should never of shelved the rail link plans. Could've had it up and running by now.

A rail link is definitley needed but to change at Paisley for a tram kind of defeats the purpose of having a direct link from the city centre.

Except no changing will be required.

If people actually bothered to look at the proposal, instead of jumping to conclusions, they'd see that the intention is for the tram-trains to run from Glasgow Central to Paisley Gilmour Street on normal rails, before heading off on-street to the airport.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-38089038

Plans to create a tram-train link between Glasgow Airport and the city centre have been unveiled.

The £144m Glasgow Airport Access Project could see journey times cut to 16.5 minutes and would bypass the need to use the busy M8.

It would involve a specially-designed tram-train using the existing railway network and on-street tracks.

It comes seven years after the Scottish government scrapped plans for a direct rail link on the grounds of cost.

If approved the system would be operational by 2025, with construction due to begin in 2022.

Four tram-trains per hour would run in each direction taking travellers between Glasgow Central Station, Paisley Gilmour Street and the airport.

 

[Altnabreac]

Except no changing will be required.

If people actually bothered to look at the proposal, instead of jumping to conclusions, they'd see that the intention is for the tram-trains to run from Glasgow Central to Paisley Gilmour Street on normal rails, before heading off on-street to the airport.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-38089038

Indeed that is the alleged intention but the capacity doesn't exist and the councils refuse to pay to create it out of the tram train business case. Hence why it won't happen.

 

[marks87]

Indeed that is the alleged intention but the capacity doesn't exist and the councils refuse to pay to create it out of the tram train business case. Hence why it won't happen.

Absolutely.

But regardless if we actually see it happening, it's wrong for people to attack the proposal on the basis that people won't want to change at Gilmour Street.

There's plenty of other areas to attack it, as you've highlighted!

 

[HH]

Waste of money. A bus currently does what the tram will do.

IIRC the bus goes (slowly) via a housing estate, which is why most people get a taxi.

 

[Altnabreac]

Absolutely.

But regardless if we actually see it happening, it's wrong for people to attack the proposal on the basis that people won't want to change at Gilmour Street.

There's plenty of other areas to attack it, as you've highlighted!

Agreed. Though it is worth reading the surface access report from AECOM that compares the options:
http://www.glasgowairport.com/media/37884/ga-exec-summary_final.pdf

This highlights the need to assess capacity on the existing rail network which has not yet been done:

A key risk to this scheme is the potential lack of capacity to run this service on the rail network during peak periods (due to lack of available paths on the rail network between PGS and Glasgow Central). Should this be the case, the service could run a limited shuttle operation between the local rail interchange point (assumed in this study to be Paisley Gilmour Street to maximise interchange potential with local rail services) and Glasgow Airport. Analysis shows that this reduces the attractiveness of this option. A further risk to the deliverability of this option is the introduction of light rail rolling stock to the mainline rail network, which requires further exploration.

This does include the option of running as a shuttle service from Paisley Gilmour Street should capacity not be available. Given that no work has been done to cost the infrastructure required on Paisley - Glasgow corridor and at Glasgow Central it is reasonable to suggest that a tram shuttle service is still a possibility until the cost of the capacity is taken into account.

 

[telstarbox]

IIRC the bus goes (slowly) via a housing estate, which is why most people get a taxi.

The 500 bus doesn't - it runs nonstop via the M8 to the city centre. Very impressed when we used it earlier this year.

 

[Clansman]

I was aware of the whole Tram-Train concept, I was more critiscising the comparison on both plans, both cancelled and current, as well as the capacity aspect of it. How will Tram-Trains fare on the mainline from Central?

I envisage a Gatwick Express type situation in terms of capacity.

But at the same time I hope that it will be as successful as the Edinburgh Trams (passengers wise, not financialy)

It just seems such a downgrade to what was planned in the rail link proposals, but never the less atleast there's going to be a link - at long last.

 

[HH]

The 500 bus doesn't - it runs nonstop via the M8 to the city centre. Very impressed when we used it earlier this year.

That's not to PGS.

 

[sheeldz]

That's not to PGS.

Neither would the tram only run from PGS - it is proposed to run from Central, which the 500 passes on the way out of the city.

I too found the 500 to be pretty brilliant when I've used it.

 

[Butts]

Neither would the tram only run from PGS - it is proposed to run from Central, which the 500 passes on the way out of the city.

I too found the 500 to be pretty brilliant when I've used it.

As long is the M8 is not log jammed it's okay.

£7.50 single now though, it has edged up quite a bit in price over the last few years.

However £10 period return not quite so bad.

Dearer than it's Edinburgh contemporary. Talking of Edinburgh if there is going to be a direct rail link to an Airport in Central Scotland it should be to there not "weegieland"

 

[XC90]

Now the interchange is built, i dont think you will be seeing a direct rail link to Edinburgh before 2050.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Absolutely.

But regardless if we actually see it happening, it's wrong for people to attack the proposal on the basis that people won't want to change at Gilmour Street.

There's plenty of other areas to attack it, as you've highlighted!

The only way a tram will run to Glasgow airport is if it starts at Paisley. Ridiculing the SNP will defo happen here and is legitimate given they have given us this predicament. Growth at GLA has been phenomenal in tge last 5 years and a rail link could have benefited the whole of Scotland and even north west England.

Something they will never admit as they were too focused on the perceived west of scotland bias.

 

[adrock1976]

Any type of link of metal rails for Glasgow Airport should ideally also involve Queen Street (and/or Partick and Clydebank possibly) station in the mix as well, so as to be of use to those who reside north of the mighty Clyde.

Not going beyond the vicinity of Glasgow Central station would only make it useful for those who are residing south of the Clyde.

 

[gsnedders]

As long is the M8 is not log jammed it's okay.

I've known it to go through the Clyde Tunnel and along the Clydeside Expressway when it's busy, as that often becomes the quickest way if the M8 is actually log jammed. To be fair, that was years ago, but where I live now it makes no sense to go into town first.

 

[Highland37]

Now the interchange is built, i dont think you will be seeing a direct rail link to Edinburgh before 2050.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Ridiculing the SNP will defo happen here and is legitimate given they have given us this predicament. Growth at GLA has been phenomenal in tge last 5 years and a rail link could have benefited the whole of Scotland and even north west England.

Something they will never admit as they were too focused on the perceived west of scotland bias.

You do talk some nonsense at times. The cancelled the airport link. That's the only thing they can be (rightly) held accountable for. Blaming them for something they haven't come up with is absurd and just looking for problems.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Dearer than it's Edinburgh contemporary. Talking of Edinburgh if there is going to be a direct rail link to an Airport in Central Scotland it should be to there not "weegieland"

Personally I much prefer the Glasgow Airport shuttle to the Edinburgh one.

 

[clc]

As long is the M8 is not log jammed it's okay.:

There's a way to bypass the city bound queues on the M8 which I'm told some bus drivers coming out of Braehead have been known to use: leave the M8 at Seaward St, head along Scotland St and West St and join the bridge via the on ramp at Cook St. The segregated outer lanes of the bridge tends to be less congested than the through lanes.

 

[NotATrainspott]

The only way a tram will run to Glasgow airport is if it starts at Paisley. Ridiculing the SNP will defo happen here and is legitimate given they have given us this predicament. Growth at GLA has been phenomenal in tge last 5 years and a rail link could have benefited the whole of Scotland and even north west England.

Something they will never admit as they were too focused on the perceived west of scotland bias.

Alternatively, they looked at the proposal and decided that all things considered, there were better uses for that much money. While passenger numbers may have risen at Glasgow Airport, that does not mean that a 4tph shuttle service would be at all useful, as a considerable proportion of the passengers will never use the rail link. The link is only worthwhile for people heading to or coming from the very centre of the city. I think it quite likely that if the link had gone ahead, we would be talking about the frequency being cut down to 2tph to provide a better match for actual demand, at which point the business case falls apart entirely.

Very few comparable cities have express airport shuttle services. Airport links are normally provided as the outer terminus of a stopping metro line (e.g. Heathrow before the Express) or they happen to be deliverable using existing rail services which are diverted. EARL had a significantly better concept in this case, as no extra services were required and it would become possible for people across Scotland to reach the airport directly. If you're in Aberdeen or Dundee or Inverness or wherever and are going to catch a flight from Edinburgh then it makes perfect sense to get to your train station and get a direct train to the terminal, even if the frequency is relatively low.

Of course, the real reason that GARL is still an issue is that Glasgow City Council are Labour and despise the SNP in every way, shape and form. Utterly pointless schemes are advocated simply to try to score political points. I wouldn't be surprised if someone's position on GARL were a pretty good indicator of a lot of political questions.

 

[gsnedders]

Very few comparable cities have express airport shuttle services.

And I think it's true to say that most that do have express shuttle services are quite a long way out.

 

[Dryce]

I wouldn't be surprised if someone's position on GARL were a pretty good indicator of a lot of political questions.

I doubt it. Many people assume that a ink to an airport is a Good Thing.

Then you talk to them - would they actually use it. Answer ... well other people might.

GARL is/was a vanity project. EARL was more ambitious but potentially very expensive (though that said - given the amount spent on the Edinburgh tram system EARL even over budget by 50% would look like a good deal!).

 

[me123]

I remain to be convinced that Paisley is the way to go with the rail link to Glasgow Airport. 4tph on the Glasgow-Paisley stretch (in addition to four trains an hour in Central) is a significant drain on capacity that I would argue could be better used on Ayrshire and Inverclyde services. I think the services will be lightly loaded by comparison to the busy trains running down that route to other destinations.

I reiterate that my preferred route is via Renfrew, Braehead, and Govan into the City Centre, perhaps as a light rail route.

A definite positive for the airport, though, regardless of which route is taken.

 

[XC90]

If the project is done properly and access is provided from the north, south and east, there is no reason why the services can't be well loaded with air travellers and workers. It was short-sightedness that prevented / delayed this from happening.

Build it and they will come.

For a Government that seems so determined to grow the Scottish economy, it seems like they blew a good opportunity. This is why we are now scrambling around with half baked, unrealistic alternatives. It should be all or nothing!

 

[adrock1976]

Perhaps may be the time for Glasgow to follow after Nottingham, and Croydon, Birmingham, Sheffield, and Manchester to bring back trams and have the network designed like a world class system.

As mentioned by me123 a route from the Airport to Queen Street via Renfrew Cross, Braehead Centre, Southern General Hospital, Govan Cross, Pacific Quay, Clyde Arc Bridge, Broomielaw, and Central Station for starters.

 

[clc]

As mentioned by me123 a route from the Airport to Queen Street via Renfrew Cross, Braehead Centre, Southern General Hospital, Govan Cross, Pacific Quay, Clyde Arc Bridge, Broomielaw, and Central Station for starters.

I agree those locations are worthy of a rail link (I assume you mean light rail) but the journey time to the airport wouldn't be competitive with the express bus so it wouldn't really work as an airport link.

 

[Altnabreac]

I agree those locations are worthy of a rail link (I assume you mean light rail) but the journey time to the airport wouldn't be competitive with the express bus so it wouldn't really work as an airport link.

Also there is only a budget of £100m so nowhere near enough money to cover anything beyond a very short spur line.

 

[Butts]

Personally I much prefer the Glasgow Airport shuttle to the Edinburgh one.

I agree it is a better Bus but the Edinburgh one opens up more gateways than the Glasgow one