Bermondsey dive under open

[neilm]

Indeed, 50 days to go.

Do we know what services will be restored then? Or is this with Southern (lack of train crew means they cannot use it?!)

 

[Bald Rick]

Almost all Southern / Thameslink services leaving London Bridge heading towards New Cross Gate after Dec 27th will use it.

The timetable appears to be the same though.

 

[neilm]

Almost all Southern / Thameslink services leaving London Bridge heading towards New Cross Gate after Dec 27th will use it.

The timetable appears to be the same though.

Hmm surely there is more capacity though? Or are they just playing it safe with same number of trains?

Tbh generally this year it has been okay in the area of London bridge (compared to last year), although we have had reduced service anyway and generally a few trains cancelled in the peak anyway which I guess helped with the congestion.

 

[Bald Rick]

Hmm surely there is more capacity though? Or are they just playing it safe with same number of trains?

Tbh generally this year it has been okay in the area of London bridge (compared to last year), although we have had reduced service anyway and generally a few trains cancelled in the peak anyway which I guess helped with the congestion.

It's been ok at London Bridge (on the 'Central' side) in terms of operation since February 2015.

Yes, there is more capacity on the approaches to London Bridge.

 

[neilm]

It's been ok at London Bridge (on the 'Central' side) in terms of operation since February 2015.

Yes, there is more capacity on the approaches to London Bridge.

I would say personally May 2015 timetable but I guess you have the numbers.

Really I guess they should be restoring trains then like the south bermondsey terminators.

Perhaps in the May 2017 timetable?

 

[FOH]

and the absent 1806 ex London Bridge?

 

[physics34]

Indeed, 50 days to go.

Was just hoping it would be earlier as iam impatient! No word on what southern/thameslink drivers are going to get in terms of a briefing. Its one of those where there is not enough to give a driver a days course and its possibly too much to just put on a paper brief!

 

[Sunset route]

Was just hoping it would be earlier as iam impatient! No word on what southern/thameslink drivers are going to get in terms of a briefing. Its one of those where there is not enough to give a driver a days course and its possibly too much to just put on a paper brief!

I think the signallers on the London Bridge link, the signallers in the neighbouring boxes, the drivers and most of all the poor suffering travelling public are all looking forward to that line opening.

 

[physics34]

I think the signallers on the London Bridge link, the signallers in the neighbouring boxes, the drivers and most of all the poor suffering travelling public are all looking forward to that line opening.

Yeh i think it will make a huge improvement. Up trains using the 50mph (*40mph in places) reversible and down trains using the 50mph Down slow.... no conflicts with the lines to/from South Bermondsey either.

 

[Phil.]

£5 says there'll be a signalling problem in the first 48 hours.

 

[Bald Rick]

£5 says there'll be a signalling problem in the first 48 hours.

If you mean specifically only on the line brought in to use, I'll have that.

 

[otomous]

Almost all Southern / Thameslink services leaving London Bridge heading towards New Cross Gate after Dec 27th will use it.

The timetable appears to be the same though.

At present no Southern driver signs it

 

[Bald Rick]

At present no Southern driver signs it

Well they won't yet, I doubt the briefing is out. But it's hardly a challenge - a new route off an existing signal, 5* new signals of which 3 are autos over approx 2,000 metres of uni-directional line at 60mph, plus a new crossover.

* a 6th 'new' signal has more functionality added to it, and can actually passed by trains. However it has been there for nearly 2 years displaying a lonely red aspect.

 

[swt_passenger]

So after the 27th it will only be open to the Southern Slow and Thameslink\Southern fast lines and not South Eastern right?

That is correct. It is a functional stage exactly as promised in the plans, even if the date is slightly earlier than those that have been publicly available for a while.

(Originally Stage 3A Part 1 was due Q2 of 2017 - going by the staging diagrams in the document linked in post #93 - they are probably a reasonable guide to the sequence even if the dates are now different.)

 

[hwl]

So after the 27th it will only be open to the Southern Slow and Thameslink\Southern fast lines and not South Eastern right? Trains on the southeastrn line to Charing Cross seem to be annoyingly crawling into London Bridge recently which is a pain when you're standing on a full non airconditioned train.

Southern slow line only is coming into use but virtually all trains from the terminating platforms via New Cross Gate will use it from early in 2017. The Thameslink lines over the top (connected to "Southern" fast lines) only come into use in Jan 2018.

Charing Cross lines through the diveunder come in use at Easter time.
Bring the Charing Cross lines into use requires track and signalling modification only possible after the Southern slow line is brought into use and there aren't enough signalling engineers to even contemplate risk doing it all in one go at Christmas.

There will be lots of weekend closures on Charing Cross lines post Jan...

 

[swt_passenger]

Oh OK. Thanks for the info. So does this mean that potentially there could be Thameslink trains running on the South Eastern route to Dartford, Sidcup, Orpington etc? Or is there not enough capacity to do so?

Yes, the actual diveunder works have always theoretically allowed for the possibility of running Thameslink services from and towards the Southeastern routes through New Cross and/or Deptford. Earlier iterations of the proposed Thameslink routes (e.g. in the London and SE RUS) DID include such services, and then for a few years (TSGN ITT) they were completely off the agenda. Now the latest proposals are to add a couple of SE routes back in to reduce the number of Thameslink trains through East Croydon.

It is important to realise though that the full 'grade separation' only applies to trains on the Southern and Thameslink routes. Trains passing between Southeastern and Thameslink require conflicting flat crossing moves across junctions on Southeastern parts of the network. This is shown best on the Stage Four layout diagram in the pdf I linked to, where it has the routes colour coded, I'm referring here to the mess of flat junctions in blue in the top right of the layout, on the Cannon St approach side.

I guess it all depends on how things go with the potential franchise takeover by TFL and whether or not they will allow sharing on those routes if they do takeover southeastern routes as suggested.

This is a bit of a red herring. A TfL 'takeover' of Southeastern Metro routes would not give TfL the ability to control 'sharing' of any routes. TfL have never been given final say on timetabling on any of the existing routes, Network Rail still run the overall timetable, and paths would always remain for existing operators, including freight, as seen with Southern on the WLL and on the New Cross Gate corridor, where their trains and London Overground run an interleaved service. Same on West Anglia with the more recent Overground transfers.

 

[IKB]

Yeh i think it will make a huge improvement. Up trains using the 50mph (*40mph in places) reversible and down trains using the 50mph Down slow.... no conflicts with the lines to/from South Bermondsey either.

Interesting thread.

I've read through and looked at the new diagrams. I think I've got my brain around it. I've concluded the following, but would be grateful if previous posters could correct me if I've erred in my understanding:

- All trains (slow and fast? ) leaving London Bridge Low Level (i.e. Southern) in the Down direction will be routed onto what is currently 8 Down/9 Reversible...which with main aspect only on TL4013 at Spa Road will become the Down Sussex Slow and use the dive under to connect at Bricklayers Arms Junction ?

- Currently if two trains leave simultaneously in the down direction, one invariably gets held either on the Sussex Reversible or the Bermondsey Reversible just before Bricklayers Arms junction to let the other past. If all Down trains are now to be routed onto the new Down Sussex Slow dive under, how does this affect simultaneous departures from London Bridge? Will there still be the option to send a 2nd Down train via the Sussex/Bermondsey Reversible, or will 2nd departure be held further back on 8/9 awaiting to join the DSS dive under? I hope that makes sense!

- Southern trains on the Up Sussex Fast after New Cross Gate will be routed onto what is currently the Sussex Reversible? (to be renamed?)

- Southern trains on the Up Sussex Slow after New Cross Gate will be routed either via the Bermondsey Reversible or the Up Bermondsey Spur?

- Or will all slow/fast Up trains use a combination of the Sussex/Bermondsey Reversible depending on what other trains are heading for South Bermondsey at that time?

These are questions, not statements

 

[carriageline]

You shouldn't have 2 trains booked to leave London Bridge at the same time, and then follow the same path. It's impossible. They are normally booked a few minutes apart for a reason, or one gets waiting time somewhere. But that's ridiculous.

As far as I'm aware no line names are changing from what they currently are

And the routing of trains, it can completely depend on signaller on shift, and what else is running around.

I'll be suprised if trains will use the Sussex rev in the up direction
(They currently don't, but of course the layout is different now!)

It mainly depends on what the different speeds will be for the crossovers in the New Cross area, and what will be least restrictive!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[IKB]

You shouldn't have 2 trains booked to leave London Bridge at the same time, and then follow the same path. It's impossible. They are normally booked a few minutes apart for a reason, or one gets waiting time somewhere. But that's ridiculous.

I wasn't suggesting two trains booked at the same time to depart but it is currently possible for two to depart simultaneously if one is running late....one is then held for the other further down, sometimes just prior to Bricklayers Arms, to let the other past.

My question is under the new set up, would it be possible to still have two simultaneous departures and either hold the second train further down on 8/9 awaiting a path onto the Down Sussex Slow (via dive under) OR will signallers still have the option to send a second down train via the Sussex Reversible and onto the Down Sussex Fast? (e.g. hypothetically - sending a Caterham stopper via the DSS dive under and a Brighton/Horsham via the Sussex Reversible).

As far as I'm aware no line names are changing from what they currently are

Which suggests it will still be possible to send a second down train onto the Down Sussex Fast via the existing Sussex Reversible route?

I'll be suprised if trains will use the Sussex rev in the up direction
(They currently don't, but of course the layout is different now!)

Is that a typo on your part? Up trains use the Sussex Reversible every day...

 

[Bald Rick]

I wasn't suggesting two trains booked at the same time to depart but it is currently possible for two to depart simultaneously if one is running late....one is then held for the other further down, sometimes just prior to Bricklayers Arms, to let the other past.

My question is under the new set up, would it be possible to still have two simultaneous departures and either hold the second train further down on 8/9 awaiting a path onto the Down Sussex Slow (via dive under) OR will signallers still have the option to send a second down train via the Sussex Reversible and onto the Down Sussex Fast? (e.g. hypothetically - sending a Caterham stopper via the DSS dive under and a Brighton/Horsham via the Sussex Reversible).



Which suggests it will still be possible to send a second down train onto the Down Sussex Fast via the existing Sussex Reversible route?

Yes X 3

 

[IKB]

Yes X 3

Thanks, makes sense.

 

[hwl]

I wasn't suggesting two trains booked at the same time to depart but it is currently possible for two to depart simultaneously if one is running late....one is then held for the other further down, sometimes just prior to Bricklayers Arms, to let the other past.

My question is under the new set up, would it be possible to still have two simultaneous departures and either hold the second train further down on 8/9 awaiting a path onto the Down Sussex Slow (via dive under) OR will signallers still have the option to send a second down train via the Sussex Reversible and onto the Down Sussex Fast? (e.g. hypothetically - sending a Caterham stopper via the DSS dive under and a Brighton/Horsham via the Sussex Reversible).




Which suggests it will still be possible to send a second down train onto the Down Sussex Fast via the existing Sussex Reversible route?



Is that a typo on your part? Up trains use the Sussex Reversible every day...

The only time 2 trains leaving together (+/-1min) should really happen is in exactly the same circumstances as it happened (and was timetabled) before the rebuild started:
1 train goes via South Bermondsey the other via New Cross Gate.

Longer term (post 2018) P14/15 effectively go over to via South Bermondsey use and P10-13 to via New Cross Gate use and with the approaches to 10-13 as they will be you will stop lots of Up trains approaching and entering the station by departing 2 from 10-13 at the same time which really kills overall station capacity so it probably won't ever happen unless things have gone very wrong but it is still better to get everything out on the Down Sussex Slow if heading to New Cross Gate especially from Jan 18. Just because you can do something doesn't mean it is sensible!
(Is line 10 bi-di between Abbey Street and Spa Road? If it is up only then no chance at all of 2 leaving from 10-13 at the same time.)

 

[IKB]

The only time 2 trains leaving together (+/-1min) should really happen is in exactly the same circumstances as it happened (and was timetabled) before the rebuild started:
1 train goes via South Bermondsey the other via New Cross Gate.

Longer term (post 2018) P14/15 effectively go over to via South Bermondsey use and P10-13 to via New Cross Gate use and with the approaches to 10-13 as they will be you will stop lots of Up trains approaching and entering the station by departing 2 from 10-13 at the same time which really kills overall station capacity so it probably won't ever happen unless things have gone very wrong but it is still better to get everything out on the Down Sussex Slow if heading to New Cross Gate especially from Jan 18. Just because you can do something doesn't mean it is sensible!

Yes understood. I was envisaging when things go tits up and the signaller has the opportunity to send a Down train via the Sussex Reversible.

(Is line 10 bi-di between Abbey Street and Spa Road? If it is up only then no chance at all of 2 leaving from 10-13 at the same time.)

Yes - travelling in a straight line on main aspects, 10 Rev starts/finishes as the Sussex Reversible at Spa Road. So theoretically (for my benefit here, thinking aloud) if you sent one Down train via 8 Down/9 Rev (into Down Sussex Slow) and one out on 10 Rev (main aspects onto Sussex Rev) you would still be able to send an Up train from New Cross Gate onto the Up South London/South London Reversible at South Bermondsey junction which both merge into 11 Rev at Spa Road.

Not saying it would happen or be sensible to timetable (as would affect Up trains/South Bermondsey) but I like to know the possibilities

 

[physics34]

Interesting thread.

I've read through and looked at the new diagrams. I think I've got my brain around it. I've concluded the following, but would be grateful if previous posters could correct me if I've erred in my understanding:

- All trains (slow and fast? ) leaving London Bridge Low Level (i.e. Southern) in the Down direction will be routed onto what is currently 8 Down/9 Reversible...which with main aspect only on TL4013 at Spa Road will become the Down Sussex Slow and use the dive under to connect at Bricklayers Arms Junction ?

- Currently if two trains leave simultaneously in the down direction, one invariably gets held either on the Sussex Reversible or the Bermondsey Reversible just before Bricklayers Arms junction to let the other past. If all Down trains are now to be routed onto the new Down Sussex Slow dive under, how does this affect simultaneous departures from London Bridge? Will there still be the option to send a 2nd Down train via the Sussex/Bermondsey Reversible, or will 2nd departure be held further back on 8/9 awaiting to join the DSS dive under? I hope that makes sense!

- Southern trains on the Up Sussex Fast after New Cross Gate will be routed onto what is currently the Sussex Reversible? (to be renamed?)

- Southern trains on the Up Sussex Slow after New Cross Gate will be routed either via the Bermondsey Reversible or the Up Bermondsey Spur?

- Or will all slow/fast Up trains use a combination of the Sussex/Bermondsey Reversible depending on what other trains are heading for South Bermondsey at that time?

These are questions, not statements

The Sussex Reversible will be keeping its name as far as i lnow.... as it will still be avaliable for bi directional working.... although most trains over the line will be in the UP direction.

If you look at some services on realtime trains from january onwards, the up trains are booked via the Sussex Reversible which is still denoted as "SRV".

 

[IKB]

Cheers, will have a look.

 

[swt_passenger]

What is being discussed above seems to be only an interim possibility for just over a year, because once the Thameslink lines are in normal use then it will cause major conflicts to send down trains to the Southern via the current route.

Apologies if most regulars had already sussed this out...

 

[IKB]

What is being discussed above seems to be only an interim possibility for just over a year, because once the Thameslink lines are in normal use then it will cause major conflicts to send down trains to the Southern via the current route.

Apologies if most regulars had already sussed this out...

Yes noted, I wasn't envisaging timetabled everyday occurrences, more like a get of jail card.

 

[Sunset route]

Looking at my diagrams (that could be out of date), once you leave London Bridge platforms 10-15 if you not routed onto line No9 at the staion throat then you have no choice but use the ladder at Brick Layers Arms Jcn against the flow of traffic as I can't find any other points between lines 10 and 9 to get you accross. Thus making line 9/Down Sussex Slow the most important piece of railway infrastructure leaving London Bridege (Sussex Side) once the Thameslink master plan kicks off in December 2018. I would of thought a crossover at Spa Road would of been a good back up (unless there is one which is missing from my diagram).

(Now expecting to get shot down in flames from those in the know lmao)

 

[IKB]

Looking at my diagrams (that could be out of date), once you leave London Bridge platforms 10-15 if you not routed onto line No9 at the staion throat then you have no choice but use the ladder at Brick Layers Arms Jcn against the flow of traffic as I can't find any other points between lines 10 and 9 to get you accross. Thus making line 9/Down Sussex Slow the most important piece of railway infrastructure leaving London Bridege (Sussex Side) once the Thameslink master plan kicks off in December 2018. I would of thought a crossover at Spa Road would of been a good back up (unless there is one which is missing from my diagram).

(Now expecting to get shot down in flames from those in the know lmao)

Looking at the diagram I have (which could also be wrong) I think you're correct.

After Brunswick Court you can only go left to right (8>9>10>11) in the down direction, not the other way around. So if you're not routed onto 9 Rev at TL4119 on the first gantry out of the station then you can't get there.

 

[swt_passenger]

Yes noted, I wasn't envisaging timetabled everyday occurrences, more like a get of jail card.

That was really what I was also suggesting when we had this discussion before, back in early October.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

After Brunswick Court you can only go left to right (8>9>10>11) in the down direction, not the other way around. So if you're not routed onto 9 Rev at TL4119 on the first gantry out of the station then you can't get there.

Will any Southern services normally be booked to use line 8 in the final layout though? The Stage 4 layout sketches in the 2014 presentation suggest (by colour coding) that line 8 is Southeastern's; and the signalling diagrams pages 40/41 in the same pdf suggest it is nearly all an up direction only line?