Disposal Of IC225s

[Firesprite]

However he's dead so I'm not really sure why this is relevant?

It was asked who was 'Tricky Dicky'?

 

[transmanche]

It was asked who was 'Tricky Dicky'?

Not quite. And in the context of the quoted text, it was clear that Richard Nixon would not be the appropriate answer.

 

[Firesprite]

However he's dead so I'm not really sure why this is relevant?

It was asked who was 'Tricky Dicky'? Nixon is the only one that I know of who had that nickname.

 

[transmanche]

It was asked who was 'Tricky Dicky'? Nixon is the only one that I know of who had that nickname.

You've interpreted "who's Tricky Dicky" as 'who was', whereas I think most people would interpret it as 'who is'.

And in the context of the railway and someone who might want to take credit for anything deemed to be positive, surely there's only one 'Dick' in the frame...?

 

[BR60062]

Just my point of view here. I cannot see much of a future for the Class 91's beyond 2018 apart from the retained ones with VTEC. One might end up at the NRM for preservation, but that might be about it when the time comes. So that's why I am out and about getting many photos and videos of them for keeps sake .

But for the rest of the Class 91's. They could be sold to overseas buyers. Not necessarily Europe or Eastern Europe, but probably Asia as I am under the impression that places like Vietnam, South Korea, Thailand and Malaysia are investing in their railways and infrastructure. So I wonder if a few cheap Class 91 locomotives would interest them? Probably not .

However as nice as the Class 91's might be. They are 28 years old ex-BR stock and as far as I am aware. The GEML and the MML (the latter when the electrification programme is complete) are getting new electric trains to replace the Mk3 LHCS stock and HST's. So no future there for the 91's and they may very likely end their days at Booths.

Meanwhile on a happier note for the Mk4's. I wonder if a few rakes of these will be reconfigured in shorter rakes to use with the Class 67/68 diesels and the Class 88 electrics? Perhaps a few sets might be stored for open access TOC's? Perhaps First Hull Trains would take some one with a Class 68/88 as the head of the train to replace Class 180's?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Would the Mk4s need a complete re-wire to work with something other then a class 91?

 

[The Ham]

The problem is in my experience many of those LM services are indeed full and standing.

First off, I was suggesting that there would be 50% more coaches, so that would reduce the need to stand.

Secondly, how much if that capacity is due to real demand and how much is down to cheap advance fares which allows travel from London to Rugby for less than £10, often closer to £5? If they doubled that to about £15 it would still be cheaper than the LM fare of £25 and certainly cheaper than the any train fare if about £45.

It would reduce the numbers slightly, but probably not by half, and combined with the longer trains would give more than adequate capacity to cope with the 65% increase in capacity if passenger numbers grow at 5%per year for 10 years

 

[Haydn1971]

Would a TOC want to take trains that have a history of reliability problems that will surely only get worse and are not quick enough off the mark given the number of station stops / speed restrictions? Not only are you in danger of losing business to the M1 with longer journey times but where does the improved passenger capacity come from over an EMU, especially given that you get rid of the loco and the DVT? How do the track access charges compare to EMU's?

I'm aware that you are very much not in favour of the 225s on the MML, to be fair, neither am I, but given the timescales of the wires on MML, running some 225s from Derby and Nottingham from around 2021 and from Sheffield from around 2022 then replacing them with the cascaded 390s from 2026 sounds a very attractive proposition for me.

The reliability issues crops up a lot, but is there any evidence of is being a problem now and could it be possible to build a new fleet of electric locomotives that could go onwards for use elsewhere on the network.

I'd love to see new EMUs across the MML, but the reality is that something like the 387s will service the southern destinations from Corby, from about 2018, it's entirely possible to end up with a fleet expansion to service Leicester, so we are only looking further north, with 222s continuing for a few more years under wires and HSTs replaced by 225s - a small fleet at best.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm not claiming they're ideally suited to the MML; I'm claiming that they may well be the best stock available for the job.



We aren't getting more Meridians, the DMU stock coming off-lease isn't 125mph, and the HSTs aren't compliant beyond 2019. It likely doesn't make sense to order new 125mph stock for the short period between 2020 and electrification, which leaves you with two options: make the HSTs compliant at great cost for a short period (this is, after all, unquestionably a shorter period than the ScotRail ones), or use the Mk4 stock, presumably with 67s.

Exactly what I'm thinking... The Mk4s could still be used with the Class 91s, but accept that something else could haul for the short period until the 390s are released. To be fair, utilising a diesel loco sounds a better idea still, you can bin the HSTs at the start of the franchise and have a compliment fleet from day one, then either run a diesel loco under wires or source an electric loco once the wires reach destinations in the north.

I pretty sure we all agree that HSTs or 225s aren't the best stock functionally, but the economics sound better than a fleet of new EMUs that will only see heavy use until 2032 at best - due to transference of London passengers to HS2
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

For 125mph running, top-and-tail is likely the easiest way to achieve it with whatever locomotives you choose. I don't think there's much concern about two 67s?

Given also that the southern section of the MML to Corby will "feature" 110mph Class 387 EMUs, just how much of the MML is left that has 125mph running and could that be compensated for by running more Mk4s than the current number of Mk3s ? Accept that use, some services are a few minutes slower, but with the benefit of extra seat space. I realise it's not a calculation any of us are able to do or if we could, unable to publish. But certainly an aspect that will need ruling out if new EMUs are to be economically justified.

 

[D365]

Perhaps First Hull Trains would take some one with a Class 68/88 as the head of the train to replace Class 180's?

They have five Class 802s on order so speculating is pointless anyway. Class 180 'is' what though?

Would the Mk4s need a complete re-wire to work with something other then a class 91?

Bearing in mind that Class 90s are capable of hauling them, as well as 89001 in the past, I think that gives you a clue.

I'm aware that you are very much not in favour of the 225s on the MML, to be fair, neither am I, but given the timescales of the wires on MML, running some 225s from Derby and Nottingham from around 2021 and from Sheffield from around 2022 then replacing them with the cascaded 390s from 2026 sounds a very attractive proposition for me.

Where are the 390s coming from? In no way is the WCML going to see a reduction in passenger service.

I'd love to see new EMUs across the MML, but the reality is that something like the 387s will service the southern destinations from Corby, from about 2018, it's entirely possible to end up with a fleet expansion to service Leicester, so we are only looking further north, with 222s continuing for a few more years under wires and HSTs replaced by 225s - a small fleet at best.

Same deal, where are the 387s coming from? Only six more units will be likely to be freed up in the near future, from c2c.

Though to be fair, there are the relatively modern Class 379 and 360 fleets coming off-lease soon.

 

[najaB]

Where are the 390s coming from? In no way is the WCML going to see a reduction in passenger service.

Post HS2 some of the services currently run with 390s may be run with classic-compatible sets instead, freeing up some 390s.

 

[ainsworth74]

Would the Mk4s need a complete re-wire to work with something other then a class 91?

No any locomotive could haul a rake of Mk4s (as long as there is a TSOE/DVT in the formation) and any locomotive that is equipped with ETS could provide ETS to the rake. Any locomotive equipped with TDM (which is not many these days possibly just 91s and 90s) could be driven from the DVT as well.

The Mk4, unlike the HST Mk3s, is just another loco hauled coach in the same way that Mk1, 2 or 3 are.

 

[DarloRich]

G'day everyone,

Assuming that Virgin takes delivery of it's new class 800s / 801s on time in December 2018 can we expect to see the first IC225s going for scrap in early 2019?

From what I understand Virgin would like to retain half a dozen sets for relief work etc so can we expect them to retain the trains with the lowest mileage / best condition?

Your thoughts would be very welcome!

It would be sad to see the MKIV's go when they still have life left in them. I wonder if there is life left in the 91's

It was asked who was 'Tricky Dicky'?

Was Tricky Dick not from Billericay? I understand he is doing very well.

 

[43074]

It's from 1 Jan 2020. But unless they get a derogation, they must either be amended to be compliant (and the EMT ones are the furtherest from compliant currently; need the doors to be sorted, call-for-aid buttons by the wheelchair spaces, universally accessible toilets, saloon doors wide enough for a wheelchair, and a PIS) or replaced.

It's highly likely the MML HSTs may get a derogation to continue running until electrification has been completed to a sufficient extent that the HSTs can be replaced by new EMUs, which won't be much past the 2020 deadline anyway - the wires may reach Nottingham & Derby for 2021, and most of the HST work on the MML is on the Nottingham 'fast' services anyway.

91s on the MML have been done to death, I doubt very much that it will happen.

 

[D365]

It would be sad to see the MKIV's go when they still have life left in them. I wonder if there is life left in the 91's

Isn't that what we have been discussing for pages already? I'm not surprised that either of them don't, both have been worked very hard on the East Coast.

 

[Mordac]

For 125mph running, top-and-tail is likely the easiest way to achieve it with whatever locomotives you choose. I don't think there's much concern about two 67s?



It's from 1 Jan 2020. But unless they get a derogation, they must either be amended to be compliant (and the EMT ones are the furtherest from compliant currently; need the doors to be sorted, call-for-aid buttons by the wheelchair spaces, universally accessible toilets, saloon doors wide enough for a wheelchair, and a PIS) or replaced.

By then the VTEC sets will have been replaced, so since they're both Stagecoach outfits, they could just go a swap over.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

By then the VTEC sets will have been replaced, so since they're both Stagecoach outfits, they could just go a swap over.

The East Midlands franchise is due for renewal in 2018.
So before any VTEC stock comes free the bidders will have to formulate plans for the future EM stock, and Stagecoach may not be the winner in any case.
Midstream transfers of stock between franchises with the same or similar owners is not necessarily easy.
You would be changing the business case for the receiving franchise and the DfT would have to agree to it.

 

[The Ham]

Going through the Franchises my ideas on the likelihood of IC225s ending up there are:

East Anglia (announced) - Not going to happen as all new units
South Western (Feb 2017) - Only if the Mark 4's are able to be used to free up 158s/159s to increase capacity on peak services, but could run using class 73's to reduce the amount of diesel running into between Basingstoke and Waterloo - but unlikely
West Midlands (June 2017) - Not sure what the ITT says, but if a home has to be found for them to carry on in service then a possibility as discussed before
West Coast (Nov 2017) - Unlikely
South Eastern (Feb 2018) - a totally EMU railway so very unlikely
East Midlands (March 2018) - Possible, maybe shorter rakes to allow doubling up of the 222s to replace the HSTs
Wales and Borders (June 2018) - unlikely, not enough loco hauled options or service with long trains
Great Western (October 2018) - a possible contender but fairly unlikely, as it should have the 2+5 HSTs and a large fleet of 80x's
Cross Country (June 2019) - possible but unlikely (would likely need a bi-modal loco), but it depends on what happens with the 22x's at East Midlands
TSGN (May 2021) - Fairly unlikely given the number of DMU's that they require
Chiltern (Aug 2021) - possible but fairly unlikely
East West (Unknown) - possible but fairly unlikely as only trains of up to 4 coaches would likely be needed
East Coast (Nov 2021) - Very highly unlikely and would require long storage
TPE (Nov 2022) - possible but fairly unlikely and would require long storage
Northern (Dec 2024) - fairly unlikely and would require long storage

 

[CosherB]

All of the talk regarding HS2 timescales has, in my opinion, to be taken with a large pinch of salt. Delays in projects to electrify existing mainlines is causing rolling stock cascade headaches - what chance do we have on building a new high speed railway coming in on time and budget. HS2 may terminate at Crewe as well ......

 

[HSTEd]

Fit selected HST power cars (selected for best condition) with Chiltern style ETS generators in the luggage compartment, refit the power cars with TDM control gear.
Mate them with existing Mark 4 rakes.
Job done.

As an alternative, fit static converters for loco hauled ETS into the luggage compartment using the existing 415V hotel supply.
Fit TDM control gear
Mate them with existing Mark 4 rakes
Job done.

All likely to be far cheaper than a full reconstruction of many Mark 3 rakes.

 

[captainbigun]

Fit selected HST power cars (selected for best condition) with Chiltern style ETS generators in the luggage compartment, refit the power cars with TDM control gear.
Mate them with existing Mark 4 rakes.
Job done.

As an alternative, fit static converters for loco hauled ETS into the luggage compartment using the existing 415V hotel supply.
Fit TDM control gear
Mate them with existing Mark 4 rakes
Job done.

All likely to be far cheaper than a full reconstruction of many Mark 3 rakes.

Not that it matters as it clearly is not going to happen, but why fit TDM? Just through wire for the 36 way jumper.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

When was the last time that he MK4s were stripped down to a level where they can be checked for things like corrosion?

 

[Haydn1971]

Where are the 390s coming from? In no way is the WCML going to see a reduction in passenger service.

As noted above, post 2026, WCML express services will reduce due to replacement by HS2 CC sets.

Same deal, where are the 387s coming from? Only six more units will be likely to be freed up in the near future, from c2c.

DfT reports on MML electrification refer to "Class 387 type" EMUs on the Corby line, I'd expect these to be either Adventra, Desiro City or similar units by the time they need to be ordered for MML

 

[route:oxford]

No any locomotive could haul a rake of Mk4s (as long as there is a TSOE/DVT in the formation) and any locomotive that is equipped with ETS could provide ETS to the rake. Any locomotive equipped with TDM (which is not many these days possibly just 91s and 90s) could be driven from the DVT as well.

The Mk4, unlike the HST Mk3s, is just another loco hauled coach in the same way that Mk1, 2 or 3 are.

So essentially, a Class 68 would haul one quite happily - and with considerably higher tractive effort probably reach 100mph far quicker than a 91 on a like-for-like stretch.

Just need to update the DVT with AAR equipment.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Given also that the southern section of the MML to Corby will "feature" 110mph Class 387 EMUs, just how much of the MML is left that has 125mph running and could that be compensated for by running more Mk4s than the current number of Mk3s ? Accept that use, some services are a few minutes slower, but with the benefit of extra seat space. I realise it's not a calculation any of us are able to do or if we could, unable to publish. But certainly an aspect that will need ruling out if new EMUs are to be economically justified.

How many trains will be running to Corby per hour compared to all the other trains going much further North? Just because two trains per can only run at 110 mph that's no reason to suggest that everything else has to run at the same speed.

Between Bedford and London I think you'd have to assume that those 387's would be running on the slow lines and not holding up any 125 mph units. Not only that but there is plenty of work going on in the Kettering area at the moment to reinstate the old slow lines which those Corby trains will be running not mention the existing slow lines north of Bedford.

Once the media got hold of the fact that after months / years of disruption the East Midlands will be rewarded with slower trains the negative publicity will be awful.

 

[ainsworth74]

So essentially, a Class 68 would haul one quite happily - and with considerably higher tractive effort probably reach 100mph far quicker than a 91 on a like-for-like stretch.

Just need to update the DVT with AAR equipment.

That would be my understanding.

 

[edwin_m]

So essentially, a Class 68 would haul one quite happily - and with considerably higher tractive effort probably reach 100mph far quicker than a 91 on a like-for-like stretch.

Higher tractive effort but significantly lower horsepower, which is what counts for acceleration at higher speeds. So the 68 would get away a bit quicker but the 91 would most likely get to 100mph first.

 

[ainsworth74]

Higher tractive effort but significantly lower horsepower, which is what counts for acceleration at higher speeds. So the 68 would get away a bit quicker but the 91 would most likely get to 100mph first.

Plus 100mph is all you'd get rather than the 125mph of a 91.

 

[Haydn1971]

How many trains will be running to Corby per hour compared to all the other trains going much further North? Just because two trains per can only run at 110 mph that's no reason to suggest that everything else has to run at the same speed.

Well you've sidestepped my question there, I asked above, just how much of this section actually runs at 125mph or indeed even 110-115mph - I don't honestly know, do you ?

Between Bedford and London I think you'd have to assume that those 387's would be running on the slow lines and not holding up any 125 mph units. Not only that but there is plenty of work going on in the Kettering area at the moment to reinstate the old slow lines which those Corby trains will be running not mention the existing slow lines north of Bedford.

Well no I wouldn't think that at all, the slow lines are going to be full of Thameslink services stopping every few miles, so not that ideal for an express service.

Once the media got hold of the fact that after months / years of disruption the East Midlands will be rewarded with slower trains the negative publicity will be awful.

Well that wouldn't necessarily be the case, firstly headline services could still run as diesel under wires, we don't know actually how much slower a loco hauled Mk4 set would be, a 5-6 car rake pulled by a Class 91 or similar may well be little different, a 8-9 car Mk4 rake would steal the headlines with a step change in seats - there's always a positive spin to be had from what others perceive as bad news.

As I've said above, we all recognise that Mk4s aren't an ideal situation, but if no one can make the economics of new EMUs work, then it's gonna be a mix of "Class 387 Type" EMUs, Mk4s and 222 running under wires until a sensible cascade can be made... No ROSCO will fund EMUs that will run for less than a decade with no sensible home afterwards because of the HS2 impacts.

 

[D365]

No ROSCO will fund EMUs that will run for less than a decade with no sensible home afterwards because of the HS2 impacts.

There's still going to be fast services on the 'classic' mainlines, which will need more EMUs if anything. Main difference is that what were the 'top-link' express trains will be serving more of the intermediate populations.

 

[CosherB]

So essentially, a Class 68 would haul one quite happily - and with considerably higher tractive effort probably reach 100mph far quicker than a 91 on a like-for-like stretch.

Just need to update the DVT with AAR equipment.

You should work for DRS.