Disposal Of IC225s

[D365]

Lots of spare DMUs up for grabs for that - 156s, 158s, 170s, 172s and 185s all up for grabs.

Most of those are ex-ScotRail units anyway, that are now on their way to Northern.

In any case, I thought that the 13 additional 170s that ScotRail is retaining would partially be used to replace Fife Circle LHCS.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

91's arent freight locos. Although they were designed with the usefulness of the flexibility of a blunt end cab Their high HP rating is geared up for hauling high speed passenger services and therefore their tractive effort is relativey low. this is noticeable by the relatively slow acceleration from a stand at most stations or signal checks. You can increase the haulage capability and therefore the tractive effort by changing the gear ratio but this comes at a cost of the top speed. More useful for freight but not passenger services.

67's are the same. Built to attain 125mph their tractive effort is actually rather ****! Their power at rail is similar to a HST power car once auxiliaries and ETH have taken their share of the engine power and a mk4 is rather hotel power hungry. Even then I do believe there are power limitations in the SV when running off a 67. One hauling a mk4 set literally screams its tits off trying to get moving and barely hits 105 let alone 125 which is unattainable. Working two locos in multiple would help but there are station length limitations which preclude this.

Remember a 91 is essentially an APT power car. It is at the extreme limit of the capabilities of DC traction hence the massive motor sizes compared to the AC motors of equivalent power. Maintenance costs are high as a result and takes up far more time. Theres not really any future in the locos without extensive reengineering to either make them freight locos or to make them AC traction. It may well be cheaper to replace with TRAXX instead. The mk4 simply need adapting to a different loco and they will be good to go for a few years yet, but at the rate new build is heading to the UK this is also doubtful. MML use has been suggested tho and cant be ruled out at this stage tho, even tho the elwctrification has been delayed. There is also wet lease possibilities on GW and EC but this is mere speculation.

Personally I dont think the mk4 is in all that great a shape. The aircon has never worked reliably, there is an annoying electrical hum throughout the train which sounds particularly bad thru the PA. The lights flicker and phase between bright and dim, noticeable more in the toilets but can be seen throughout the train. Some worse than others. These are obviously design flaws that have never been addressed but do little to enhance the travelling experience.

What would BR have done? Two possibilities, remained on EC until withdrawal or cascade. most likely an electrified MML, XC with diesel or bi-mode locos or GA with the GA mk3 moving to XC. the only other possibility would have been a route such as waterloo-exeter (had the need to replace the 50's back in 1990 not beem followed up with MU's) or to update the gerald. Realistically these are the only options in todays privatised railway with the 91's perhaps joining the 86 and 87's out in bulgaria or some other eastern bloc country where they may yet eke out their days.

 

[The Ham]

The problem is that from each door, you can only go in one direction, for 11.5m, stopping to let people sit down/load overhead luggage etc. With a more conventional layout, you can go in two directions from each door and then for a shorter length (I would say about 5m in each direction) so boarding will be quicker. It isn't just about the number of doors but about the throughput of each door.

And besides, we all know that passengers only ever use two doors of a train at most!

Yet SWT manage with their 444's and 159's on some quite busy services, it tends to only cause problems once people start to be standing or the available seats are right next to the door.

Yes, it does tend to be that people tend to use only a few doors. However, as these also tend to change from station to station depending on where access points to the platforms are it means that people getting off (unless commuters who know the best coach to get off from) tend to be a bit more evenly spread.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Are all axles powered on 91s?

 

[ainsworth74]

Lots of spare DMUs up for grabs for that - 156s, 158s, 170s, 172s and 185s all up for grabs.

Most of those are ex-ScotRail units anyway, that are now on their way to Northern.

In any case, I thought that the 13 additional 170s that ScotRail is retaining would partially be used to replace Fife Circle LHCS.

Hmm good points both!

 

[Domh245]

Yet SWT manage with their 444's and 159's on some quite busy services, it tends to only cause problems once people start to be standing or the available seats are right next to the door.

Yes, it does tend to be that people tend to use only a few doors. However, as these also tend to change from station to station depending on where access points to the platforms are it means that people getting off (unless commuters who know the best coach to get off from) tend to be a bit more evenly spread.

Are the dwell times for the 444/159 services the same as the dwell times for a 450 service?

 

[ac6000cw]

Are all axles powered on 91s?

Yes, all four are powered.

It's the 140 mph gearing and low axle load that limits their low-speed tractive effort, combined with the DC drive system. Very much 'racehorses', as others have said.

 

[theblackwatch]

Most of those are ex-ScotRail units anyway, that are now on their way to Northern.

In any case, I thought that the 13 additional 170s that ScotRail is retaining would partially be used to replace Fife Circle LHCS.

There are still other 170s up for grabs, namely the former Greater Anglia ones which will displaced in a few years time.

 

[philjo]

Chiltern may be able to use a couple of shortened sets with 68s on the Birmingham route - especially if they want to use more of the current silver sets to Oxford depending on passenger demand after they fully open to Oxford.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Chiltern may be able to use a couple of shortened sets with 68s on the Birmingham route - especially if they want to use more of the current silver sets to Oxford depending on passenger demand after they fully open to Oxford.

Arguably Chiltern could replace the silver sets with Mk4s, being rather newer.

 

[ainsworth74]

Arguably Chiltern could replace the silver sets with Mk4s, being rather newer.

Not sure if they'd want to. The Silver Sets have had a lot of work done to them so it would be bit odd to replace them so soon. I could see them replacing the Banbury Commuter set (the one still with slam doors).

 

[Clansman]

A few suggestions on having the 91s for the sleeper!?

I feel sorry for the folks in the first berth in the carriage behind anyway - with those noisy fans, you'd need to double up on the sleeping pills and ear muffs!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not sure if they'd want to. The Silver Sets have had a lot of work done to them so it would be bit odd to replace them so soon. I could see them replacing the Banbury Commuter set (the one still with slam doors).

True, though they may be sellable to charter operators who might find the power doors useful to prevent window leaning. And they haven't done *that* much to them - for instance, the seats are all original IC70s - and some of what they have done such as the LED lighting is a really cheap and nasty job. Not to mention that much of the rest of it (other than the power doors and bogs) was actually done by WSMR.

I can't see them wanting multiple types of LHCS, so I would expect it'll be all Mk4 or all Mk3.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Arguably Chiltern could replace the silver sets with Mk4s, being rather newer.

But Mk 4s don't have a brilliant ride quality, whereas Mk 3s absolutely do.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But Mk 4s don't have a brilliant ride quality, whereas Mk 3s absolutely do.

I agree - the ride quality of Mk4s at 125mph is utterly terrible - sometimes feels like you've come off the road. But they may ride better at 75/90mph on the Chiltern line - allegedly they also ride better at 140mph for which the bogies were designed.

But they are newer, so will be more reliable, and have a high quality[1] brand new interior already. They will just require new seat covers to de-Virginise them, and conversion of the DVTs for Class 68 use (or just carry on with Mk3 DVTs).

[1] Provided two piece seat cushions are used.

 

[ainsworth74]

I can't see them wanting multiple types of LHCS, so I would expect it'll be all Mk4 or all Mk3.

Yes that thought occurred to me as well.

It really is becoming rather hard to find a home for the Mk4s isn't it?

 

[Clansman]

But Mk 4s don't have a brilliant ride quality, whereas Mk 3s absolutely do.

The Mk3s don't have the annoying hum in the background, that's why

On a serious note, it'll be hard to speculate where they will end up, although I am taken to the idea of the Mk4s having a similar purpose to Mk3s in future - same with the DVT. As for the 91 itself, I have no idea how that'll fair in future. Don'the 91s share similar design to the trains (unsure of the class) that work Le Shuttle through the Chunnel?

 

[Firesprite]

Stick cape gauge bogies on some of them and sell them to New Zealand to replace their Mk2's.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

What are the chances of the 225s joining the 442s for a journey to Booths?

 

[CosherB]

What are the chances of the 225s joining the 442s for a journey to Booths?

Have you not read the first three pages of this thread?

 

[gsnedders]

Where is there slam-door Mk3 LHCS with no known replacement currently? Which of them could have them just replaced by Mk4 for the sake of compliance in a few years rather than modifying the LHCS?

 

[captainbigun]

91s are all but doomed. They bear no relation to the Chunnel locos (GEC vs Brush). They do share a lot of kit with other GEC products from the same era (e.g. 90s).

As for the Mk4s I suspect Eversholt will hang on to some for a while, but most likely outcome is a trip through Snailwell firing tunnel or similar.

New stock is currently so cheap that re-engineering old kit (see 321s/317s etc) is as expensive, if not more expensive and comes with more risk.

 

[ainsworth74]

Where is there slam-door Mk3 LHCS with no known replacement currently? Which of them could have them just replaced by Mk4 for the sake of compliance in a few years rather than modifying the LHCS?

About the only stuff left is probably the Mk3s being used on:

• The Night Riviera but its highly unlikely that it would be practical/economic to convert a Mk4 into a SLEP/SLE. Particularly considering that GWR are about to have access to a glut of surplus SLEP/SLE vehicles to cannibalise.
• ATW Premier Service and North Wales Coast but who knows how long the Premier Service is going to last (it's a miracle it's made it this far to be honest) and we should have a glut of DMUs that could replace the North Wales Coast LHCS services.
• Fife Circle services but again lots of DMUs in the offing.
• Cumbrian Coast Mk2s but again lots of DMUs available in the near future.
• MML HSTs are currently without a replacement plan as far as I'm aware beyond EMUs once the wires go up.

That's about it that I can think of off the top of my head.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Have you not read the first three pages of this thread?

I don't see a viable future for them in this thread

 

[Mordac]

I agree - the ride quality of Mk4s at 125mph is utterly terrible - sometimes feels like you've come off the road. But they may ride better at 75/90mph on the Chiltern line - allegedly they also ride better at 140mph for which the bogies were designed.

But they are newer, so will be more reliable, and have a high quality[1] brand new interior already. They will just require new seat covers to de-Virginise them, and conversion of the DVTs for Class 68 use (or just carry on with Mk3 DVTs).

[1] Provided two piece seat cushions are used.

Is that all it takes nowadays?

 

[D365]

Is that all it takes nowadays?

So if Virgin had used flower moquettes, what would it be called..?

 

[Bodiddly]

Scotrail had announced grand plans to take some IC225 set's for the Borders line to improve the service until someone pointed out that they hadn't electrified it when the had the perfect opportunity to do so during construction......

 

[cjmillsnun]

Don'the 91s share similar design to the trains (unsure of the class) that work Le Shuttle through the Chunnel?

No. The Class 89 is closer to the Eurotunnel Class 9. It was because of that that GNER were able to get her back into service.

 

[AngusH]

Scotrail had announced grand plans to take some IC225 set's for the Borders line to improve the service until someone pointed out that they hadn't electrified it when the had the perfect opportunity to do so during construction......

Forgive me for asking, but is this actual news or a joke?

I can't tell anymore, given some of the actual schemes that have been seriously proposed.

 

[Townsend Hook]

There seems to be a lot of doom and gloom saying goes the 91s have absolutely no possible future; is not possible that they will follow the numerous 86s, 87s and 92s that have found a new home in Eastern Europe? The 91s are still relatively modern and have a lot of life left in them, and may well be available at a knock-down price if the ROSCO can't find any takers to lease them in the UK.