Great Northern Weekend Cancellations

[FOH]

We've been putting up with these jokers for years. It's time for TfL to takeover London routes and ban Go Ahead from any future franchises.

 

[Ianno87]

Saw this. tut tut.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


What about LM I didn't think they were precieved as too bad there?

LM went through a severe ropey patch with a shortage of crew between about 2011 & 2013, to the extent that all season ticket holders were given 5 free days of travel across their network as compensation.

Sunday services were run on a very skeleton basis for a few months in 2011 (e.g. 1 train per hour for all WCML Slow Line stations to Northampton), and into 2012 ongoing train crew shortages (feel sorry for the erratic service the Abbey and Marston Vale lines had this point).

My personal highlight was being turfed onto the platform at Rugby one February evening in temperatures of -2deg.C for a 40 minute wait for the next train when we didn't have an onward conductor. Not even the coffee shop was open...

They do seem to have got their act together more recently, however (although I travel with them much less often now)

 

[sarahj]

LM went through a severe ropey patch with a shortage of crew between about 2011 & 2013, to the extent that all season ticket holders were given 5 free days of travel across their network as compensation.

Sunday services were run on a very skeleton basis for a few months in 2011 (e.g. 1 train per hour for all WCML Slow Line stations to Northampton), and into 2012 ongoing train crew shortages (feel sorry for the erratic service the Abbey and Marston Vale lines had this point).

My personal highlight was being turfed onto the platform at Rugby one February evening in temperatures of -2deg.C for a 40 minute wait for the next train when we didn't have an onward conductor. Not even the coffee shop was open...

They do seem to have got their act together more recently, however (although I travel with them much less often now)

bah, if you want to see proper train cancellations, check out the departure board from Brighton to West Coast destinations today. Trying to run a full service with no staff. Not good.

 

[bb21]

I don't know much about LM but they're doing their absolute best to ruin the Great Northern operation.

GN reliability and punctuality was decent under both WAGN and First. GTR get hold of it and it goes to rack and ruin. They claim a shortage of drivers inherited from First but First never cancelled trains at the rate GTR are doing nowadays.

The shortage of drivers excuse is starting to wear a little thin - they told us two years ago they had a large driver recruitment programme. Where are they?

Trained up and nicked by Virgin, Arriva, Crossrail and LOROL?

Probably a bit soon. In another couple of years they can wheel that out as an excuse, and in all probability it would probably be true the way things are going.

 

[philthetube]

Trained up and nicked by Virgin, Arriva, Crossrail and LOROL?

Probably a bit soon. In another couple of years they can wheel that out as an excuse, and in all probability it would probably be true the way things are going.

It's not the new drivers these companies want but the ones with experience, the whole training issue needs to be looked at, maybe with transfer fees payable to poaching companies.

Companies like Virgin cannot really be blamed for poaching, a new drivers first job should not be operating a pendalino at 125mph,

 

[Robertj21a]

Trained up and nicked by Virgin, Arriva, Crossrail and LOROL?

Probably a bit soon. In another couple of years they can wheel that out as an excuse, and in all probability it would probably be true the way things are going.

General query, not specific to this case, but are most train companies short of drivers ? - I know it's a long training period and quite a few won't make the required performance.

 

[FordFocus]

It's not the new drivers these companies want but the ones with experience, the whole training issue needs to be looked at, maybe with transfer fees payable to poaching companies.

Companies like Virgin cannot really be blamed for poaching, a new drivers first job should not be operating a pendalino at 125mph,

The DfT need to oversee that the correct number of drivers are at each franchise with a training plan for recruitment if the numbers dip below a certain threshold. In particular towards the last couple of the years of the franchise so the next franchise isn't short.

I don't see a major issue with poaching, otherwise it would be unfair on qualified drivers who want to progress or need to change companies for location reasons if TOCs were penalised.

 

[jayah]

The DfT need to oversee that the correct number of drivers are at each franchise with a training plan for recruitment if the numbers dip below a certain threshold. In particular towards the last couple of the years of the franchise so the next franchise isn't short.

I don't see a major issue with poaching, otherwise it would be unfair on qualified drivers who want to progress or need to change companies for location reasons if TOCs were penalised.

Except it is the poaching that causes many of the problems. The notice period is far shorter than the recruitment and training period. If it was an internal transfer within the same company it ought to be managed.

If the DfT are going to start overseeing headcount and depot establishment we might as well renationalise and have done with it.

One of the few things the TOCs are meant to do (and do better than BR) is manage this area and ever since 199? and SWTs infamous voluntary severance scheme it has been a never ending shambles with shortfalls here there and everywhere at one time and another, with the ASLEF brothers the only beneficiaries.

 

[Sleepy]

TOC with large driver depot (with Dutch friends) is not as bad as GN or LM in the past (minor cancellations) but currently RDW by drivers is very high with people being begged to work extra a daily occurrence. They might be storing up big problems a few years ahead - some of these folk will be retired by 55 with mortgage paid off - who wants to keep starting work at 0400 or finishing 01XX if you don't have too ??

 

[philthetube]

The DfT need to oversee that the correct number of drivers are at each franchise with a training plan for recruitment if the numbers dip below a certain threshold. In particular towards the last couple of the years of the franchise so the next franchise isn't short.

I don't see a major issue with poaching, otherwise it would be unfair on qualified drivers who want to progress or need to change companies for location reasons if TOCs were penalised.

The issue with poaching is that the whole training burden falls on certain operators, when Virgin want a driver they just announce that they have jobs going for an extra 10k over what Northern pay and they have people queuing at the door, in the meantime that is another driver, that northern don't have.
(Other companies are also involved).

 

[FordFocus]

Except it is the poaching that causes many of the problems. The notice period is far shorter than the recruitment and training period. If it was an internal transfer within the same company it ought to be managed.

If the DfT are going to start overseeing headcount and depot establishment we might as well renationalise and have done with it.

One of the few things the TOCs are meant to do (and do better than BR) is manage this area and ever since 199? and SWTs infamous voluntary severance scheme it has been a never ending shambles with shortfalls here there and everywhere at one time and another, with the ASLEF brothers the only beneficiaries.

Poaching caused problems in the early days because of the privatisation effect, everyone wanted more trains and more services so needed the extra drivers. Especially once DRI 1 came in at many places. Freightliner HH were throwing money about and paid higher wages than most of the local TOCs and people jumped ship although times have long since changed. Virgin and other InterCity TOCs restructured and paid a lot more as well. The only issue I've seen with poaching in recent years is when XC advertise at Birmingham. They wait until they had nearly a dozen vacancies and then recruit. With staff numbers and morale been low at LM they suffered the most when drivers jumped ship.

It's estimated to take between 12-18 months from recruitment to passing out a driver. Having a notice period as long as this is unrealistic.

The reason I mentioned DfT monitoring head counts is to help stop a TOC handing over a franchise without enough staff to run a basic service.

 

[HH]

The reason I mentioned DfT monitoring head counts is to help stop a TOC handing over a franchise without enough staff to run a basic service.

They're supposed to do this, but I've never known them to do a very good job of it.

 

[jon0844]

They're supposed to do this, but I've never known them to do a very good job of it.

What can be done if they don't? A hefty fine? Slap on the wrist? Loud tutting? Ridicule on social media?

At the end of the day, if there aren't enough drivers then there aren't enough drivers.

 

[Wolfie]

Trained up and nicked by Virgin, Arriva, Crossrail and LOROL?

Probably a bit soon. In another couple of years they can wheel that out as an excuse, and in all probability it would probably be true the way things are going.

Shock horror, treat your staff like a pile of turds and they will vote with their feet..GTR reaping what it has sowed again...

 

[bb21]

Shock horror, treat your staff like a pile of turds and they will vote with their feet..GTR reaping what it has sowed again...

Pay an extra 10k and see other TOCs' drivers leave in droves. Save your money on training costs and time, and spare contingency cover.

Not always the victim's fault, but what can you do? Perhaps a compensation package to the TOC losing out on a diminishing scale for up to 10 years.

Although in GTR's case, ...

 

[infobleep]

bah, if you want to see proper train cancellations, check out the departure board from Brighton to West Coast destinations today. Trying to run a full service with no staff. Not good.

Have GTR thought about introducing an emergency timetable for the weekends? The introduction of such a revised timetable gives customers certainty over what services are running.

I hear it's been working successfully on other days recently!

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[Hadders]

Have GTR thought about introducing an emergency timetable for the weekends? The introduction of such a revised timetable gives customers certainty over what services are running.

I hear it's been working successfully on other days recently!

We've mentioned an emergency weekend timetable at least 3 times on this thread alone so I'm sure GTR must have considered it.

Thankfully we've got been subjected to a week day Emergency Timetable on the GN route. I'm not sure emergency timetable and success should be put in the same sentence though!

 

[infobleep]

We've mentioned an emergency weekend timetable at least 3 times on this thread alone so I'm sure GTR must have considered it.

Thankfully we've got been subjected to a week day Emergency Timetable on the GN route. I'm not sure emergency timetable and success should be put in the same sentence though!

The cynic in me thinks the DfT may disagree with that last bit.

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[FOH]

Even with an long standing emergency timetable being in place on Southern, the performance figures for yesterday only had 78% of mainline trains arriving within 5 minutes of schedule. While an improvement from the previous 35% it isn't total certainty either.

 

[class387]

We've mentioned an emergency weekend timetable at least 3 times on this thread alone so I'm sure GTR must have considered it.

Thankfully we've got been subjected to a week day Emergency Timetable on the GN route. I'm not sure emergency timetable and success should be put in the same sentence though!

What is the emergency timetable for GN? I've not seen it and would like to see which services have been taken out.

 

[Hadders]

What is the emergency timetable for GN? I've not seen it and would like to see which services have been taken out.

There isn't an emergency timetable on GN.

A few of us on this thread have suggested that GTR look at introducing one at the weekends on GN to give a more reliable service given they keep cancelling weekend services due to a lack of drivers.

 

[sarahj]

Have GTR thought about introducing an emergency timetable for the weekends? The introduction of such a revised timetable gives customers certainty over what services are running.

I hear it's been working successfully on other days recently!

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

I don't know what their plans are, it's just scary seeing all the uncovered turns at Brighton for Saturday, it's passed double figs, and no, we are not all sick*, but over the last few months, for some reason, people have left the conductor grade.

*see today's evening standard.

 

[HH]

There isn't an emergency timetable on GN.

A few of us on this thread have suggested that GTR look at introducing one at the weekends on GN to give a more reliable service given they keep cancelling weekend services due to a lack of drivers.

Unless things have changed from FCC one big issue is the Rosters. Rest days are heavily weighted to Friday & Saturday by the union reps who do them. And of course Sundays are outside the working week. They rely on volunteers to make up the numbers. FCC managed to largely keep the drivers onside; GTR don't seem to be too hot on IR though...

 

[infobleep]

I don't know what their plans are, it's just scary seeing all the uncovered turns at Brighton for Saturday, it's passed double figs, and no, we are not all sick*, but over the last few months, for some reason, people have left the conductor grade.

*see today's evening standard.

Well Chris Grayling doesn't publicly think so. He's blaming staff sickness. But what does he know, he's only the Transport Secretary. Lol!

To be fair the comment piece is about Southern and not Great Northern. Perhaps he fills differently about Great Northern but it's just that he hasn't been asked to give his views on Great Northern. I think I know the answer.

http://www.standard.co.uk/comment/c...e-the-problems-on-southern-rail-a3334296.html

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[jayah]

Well Chris Grayling doesn't publicly think so. He's blaming staff sickness. But what does he know, he's only the Transport Secretary. Lol!

To be fair the comment piece is about Southern and not Great Northern. Perhaps he fills differently about Great Northern but it's just that he hasn't been asked to give his views on Great Northern. I think I know the answer.

http://www.standard.co.uk/comment/c...e-the-problems-on-southern-rail-a3334296.html

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Although not to everyone's taste, Jerry Hayes, former Tory MP and blogger on legal matters provides most a most lurid appraisal of Grayling's tenure as Lord Chancellor calling him among other things lost in diplomatic niceties a 's**t that will have to be flushed', 'incompetent and a disgrace'. And then this:

http://jerryhayes.co.uk/posts/2014/03/08/is-chris-grayling-a-sociopath
"I was having a drink with an eminent psychiatrist. I asked him what the difference between a psychopath and a sociopath was. He explained that the latter had boundaries and tended to be achievers with qualifications and status. He gave an example of some consultant surgeons. Then he started talking about politicians. He told me of one particular subject he had been studying with interest. ‘Pure text book. What gives it away is the fluency of repetitive lying’.
I asked who it was.
‘Oh, some fellow called Chris Grayling. Ever heard of him?’
I bought the old boy a drink."

I wouldn't raise your expectations too far.

 

[bramling]

Well Chris Grayling doesn't publicly think so. He's blaming staff sickness. But what does he know, he's only the Transport Secretary. Lol!

To be fair the comment piece is about Southern and not Great Northern. Perhaps he fills differently about Great Northern but it's just that he hasn't been asked to give his views on Great Northern. I think I know the answer.

http://www.standard.co.uk/comment/c...e-the-problems-on-southern-rail-a3334296.html

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Obviously he won't be able to blame guards on the GN side.

One way or other, 2 years ago we had a solid reliable operation, now we don't. Not much else has changed apart from the management.

 

[jon0844]

I have no idea why GTR sometimes has two people on platform 3 dispatching trains now, or why when it's just one it is someone at the far end who just talks or waves to the driver.

More surprising is that one of them the other day was a revenue inspector, more recently working the gateline, so what exactly is going on there? Obviously I'm sure he has either asked to change roles or is now 'multi-skilled' perhaps having been told that he is to do a different role, but I don't even understand why there's now dispatching from a platform where all trains now stop at the far end - and where trains aren't dispatched in the day.

 

[Hadders]

Not a good start to today. GTR have cancelled the 0759 12 car service from Stevenage apparently due to a train fault (why it couldn't run with only 4 or 8 cars I don't know).

So 12 cars worth of passengers to squeeze into the 0802 and 0807 8 car services (which get packed anyway). At they had the common sense to make a special stop on a service at 0755.

 

[jon0844]

Being able to act quickly to do things like put a stop order on another service is something any good TOC should be striving to do whenever possible. Rather than the easier option of doing nothing and figuring that people will somehow sort themselves out and, hey, can use delay repay and shut up.

I remember FCC managing to do this a bit, and FCC was also quite quick to get buses in when things went tits up (depending on what time of day things went tits up).

 

[Tetchytyke]

Pay an extra 10k and see other TOCs' drivers leave in droves. Save your money on training costs and time, and spare contingency cover.

Golden handcuffs, as in aviation, might not be such a bad idea.

Of course the problem is that GTR have all the nous that you'd expect from a company run by the man who gave Connex to the world. Getting rid of the guards solves one problem, but makes it doubly important that you're nice to your drivers. FCC struggled with this plenty of times- no trains on Remembrance Sunday being a high point- but GTR seem to be plumbing new depths.

But for those of us with experience of commuting with GoVia, none of this comes as much of a surprise. GoVia have plenty of franchises, and they are all awful.