Great Northern Weekend Cancellations

[jon0844]

I remember being disappointed when NR was doing the OHLE works in the 00s, such that for many months in a year (almost six I recall) there weren't trains at all at weekends. With a season ticket and free travel, it was disappointing to know I'd have to use a bus and I pretty much didn't travel, or went via TL.

And now, I'm once again not travelling on weekends. Yesterday I went in on AGA from Cheshunt and might do so again.

But GTR doesn't care about a loss of ticket sales!

 

[Hadders]

I popped up to London this afternoon. Coming back the 1852 fast to Stevenage had additional calls at Welwyn Garden City, Welwyn North and Knebworth but there were several cancellations showing on the departure boards.

To be honest rather than unpredictable cancellations each weekend I don't understand why GN don't implement an emergency timetable until they have sufficient drivers. At least we'd have some certainty then.

 

[Class 170101]

I doubt they know from week to week how many are available to / willing to work.

 

[jon0844]

Friday night I asked GN on Twitter if they had loads of trains cancelled on Saturday, given they must be aware of them.

They said no, and directed me to their website and a link to engineering work. I pointed out that there wasn't any engineering work on the GN route planned, but I was concerned about shortages of train crew.

So I was asked to say when I was going to travel in and out, so they could check - suggesting they can check (as they must). I wonder why they can't be forced to publish the cancelled trains just like during engineering works.

I gave my times going in, but hadn't planned on Friday night to decide a specific train back.

Suffice to say I got stung again, once more by using RTT to check times. At Stratford Westfield with a very tired four year old, we decided to stump up the ridiculous price to go from Stratford International to St Pancras to get a fast train home, rather than via LO to Highbury, up to Finsbury Park etc.

The 1935 on RTT was showing as on time and at platform when I checked, so all seemed good.

We got to the platform at 1933 (running) to see it was cancelled. No staff to be found (gates all open) so I looked up on another service to see the reason - shortage of train crew! Wow, what a surprise.

The next train was 2005, which did run, so I guess the consolation is another Delay Repay claim, but I'm also annoyed as there was no need for me and my wife to pay almost a tenner to use HS1 to grab a non-running train! I doubt I'd be able to get a refund for that though.

(I guess it's no surprise it's the same company running SET. When you have a Z1-6 TC it's particularly annoying to pay over £4 to go one stop.. but that's another argument for another day!).

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SAT 9 JULY: Another chaotic morning, and another chance to get some or all of our money back!

Loads of cancellations in the morning, despite Wireless festival at Finsbury Park. Two slows cancelled back to back, and two semi fast cancellations, meant they put a few extra stops on the next running semi fast, which was already packed. First class was declassified, but already packed, and of course it lost loads of time. Then got cancelled at FPK and we all got kicked off!

I feel for those festival goers who couldn't get on as some had a lengthy wait, on top of an already long wait. Potentially well over an hour.

Sent from my PLK-L01 using Tapatalk

 

[Hadders]

Not a good start to the weekend. Just passed through Kings Cross and the 2244, 2301, 2350 and 0005 are showing as cancelled.

 

[Hadders]

I'm going to a concert in London this evening which will finish around 2200. Options for getting back to Stevenage are as follows:

2222 - cancelled
2252 - cancelled
2305 - cancelled
2322 - appears to be running
0005- cancelled
0035 - cancelled

This is an absolutely disgraceful state of affairs. And I thought FCC were bad....

 

[petersi]

Does make one think that class 387 introduction should be delayed until they have more drivers

For GN drivers it's fall weeks training not good when they do not have enough drivers

 

[Hadders]

Does make one think that class 387 introduction should be delayed until they have more drivers

For GN drivers it's fall weeks training not good when they do not have enough drivers

Well quite. GTR have had the franchise for almost two years now, they can't keep blaming a shortage of drivers inherited from FCC.

the way things are at the moment I'd be quite happy to scrap the 387s and 700s and keep things as they are.

 

[bramling]

Well quite. GTR have had the franchise for almost two years now, they can't keep blaming a shortage of drivers inherited from FCC.

the way things are at the moment I'd be quite happy to scrap the 387s and 700s and keep things as they are.

Yes quite. The first responsibility of any rail operator should be to deliver the advertised timetable, seven days a week.

It's not as if the 317s, 321s and 365s have anywhere they need to be off to in a hurry.

 

[jon0844]

I am sure that wherever the 321s and 317s go next, they'll need a bit of work so I am sure there are people who would like them to come out as quickly as possible, unless they're to go for scrap which I assume isn't happening - certainly not the 321s.

I remember two years where half of the year had virtually no weekend service due to OHLE work. Perhaps GTR should just stop running any trains on a Sunday and train drivers as quickly as possible? I now avoid travel on Sunday, and I am sure many others do too.

 

[HH]

Sundays are no longer part of the working week for GN, which IIRC happened under FCC (under Holness, now Ops Director at LU), so working Sundays is voluntary. Since that time staff have signalled displeasure by not volunteering on occasion.

FCC used to also book a number of spare turns in case drivers didn't turn up on the day; I wouldn't have expected GTR to change this, but they may have been tempted to reduce them. This is also the start of peak holiday season remember, so things are likely to be a bit tighter.

Oh and Saturdays are down to poor rostering; or they were on FCC - too many leave days leading to reliance on RDW.

 

[bramling]

Sundays are no longer part of the working week for GN, which IIRC happened under FCC (under Holness, now Ops Director at LU), so working Sundays is voluntary. Since that time staff have signalled displeasure by not volunteering on occasion.

FCC used to also book a number of spare turns in case drivers didn't turn up on the day; I wouldn't have expected GTR to change this, but they may have been tempted to reduce them. This is also the start of peak holiday season remember, so things are likely to be a bit tighter.

Oh and Saturdays are down to poor rostering; or they were on FCC - too many leave days leading to reliance on RDW.

One way or other, with FCC it was normally possible to find the advertised timetable operating, 7 days a week -- although I do remember they sometimes had issues early-morning at weekends.

Nowadays under GTR weekends are associated with a long list of cancellations, plus even if you turn up for something which isn't listed as cancelled you quite often find it's not running. And weekdays are starting to become affected too.

I'm not sure I can ever recall experiencing a weekday service cancelled under FCC due to no driver.

Whatever issues FCC may have left, GTR seem to have made a mess of things.

 

[Hadders]

One way or other, with FCC it was normally possible to find the advertised timetable operating, 7 days a week -- although I do remember they sometimes had issues early-morning at weekends.

Nowadays under GTR weekends are associated with a long list of cancellations, plus even if you turn up for something which isn't listed as cancelled you quite often find it's not running. And weekdays are starting to become affected too.

I'm not sure I can ever recall experiencing a weekday service cancelled under FCC due to no driver.

Whatever issues FCC may have left, GTR seem to have made a mess of things.

That's right. Whatever the faults of WAGN or FCC I can't ever remember a time when we've had cancellations like this.

Great Northern's always had a decent reputation for reliability but GTR are trying their best to ruin it. And that's before they start to put anything through the core.

 

[HH]

Guys, I never said otherwise. What I said was that GTR inherited some structural problems. Their IR has been a disaster and when you rely on staff goodwill to run your services that is not a clever move.

 

[bramling]

Guys, I never said otherwise. What I said was that GTR inherited some structural problems. Their IR has been a disaster and when you rely on staff goodwill to run your services that is not a clever move.

There's a lot to be said for the London Underground arrangement where drivers don't do RDW, nor overtime except when finishing late due to disruption/special working etc.

Would open up a can of worms though - lots of people like the opportunity to earn extra, whilst it allows the operator to avoid the overheads associated with extra people.

 

[MikeWM]

That's right. Whatever the faults of WAGN or FCC I can't ever remember a time when we've had cancellations like this.

Great Northern's always had a decent reputation for reliability but GTR are trying their best to ruin it. And that's before they start to put anything through the core.

Indeed - and its over 2 months now since I started this thread, which was alteady some months into the problem, though thngs seems to be getting progressively worse over time rather than better.

Got my first GN train in months just now, which at least was running - unlike the one before it or the one after it (the last of the night back to Cambridge, cancelled!) But I missed the wifi and the aircon I've been getting used to on AGAs 379s... To be frank, its going to take me a long time to get back to getting GN trains regularly now, even if they fixed their issues tomorrow, which doesn't seem entirely likely. And with the Thameslink disaster waiting to happen, and the 700s around the corner, that's not going to help to entice me back.

I didn't think it would be possible to destroy the many years of goodwill I had towards GN quite so comprehensively, but here we are.

 

[HH]

There's a lot to be said for the London Underground arrangement where drivers don't do RDW, nor overtime except when finishing late due to disruption/special working etc.

Would open up a can of worms though - lots of people like the opportunity to earn extra, whilst it allows the operator to avoid the overheads associated with extra people.

LO also do this. I think it's an excellent arrangement - RDW is becoming less and less popular.

 

[bramling]

LO also do this. I think it's an excellent arrangement - RDW is becoming less and less popular.

Less popular with crews maybe, but I don't really see much evidence that the train companies aren't keen.

For a start the basic salary has to be decent in the first place such that people are happy not to have to ability to do RDW. And of course it means having a full establishment of drivers plus spares cover, plus all the overheads associated with the additional drivers required (eg. uniforms, equipment, locker space, management, competence assurance, pension, annual leave entitlement etc etc etc). All this costs a lot of money for the employer, and it means you have to be good with attendance management (plus anything else that makes a driver unavailable to drive a train, e.g. incident investigations, training etc) as once your spares are used up that's basically it.

On balance I still think it's preferable though.

 

[greatkingrat]

LO also do this. I think it's an excellent arrangement - RDW is becoming less and less popular.

Not true, there is plenty of RDW at LOROL. Sundays are part of the normal working week though.
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There's a lot to be said for the London Underground arrangement where drivers don't do RDW, nor overtime except when finishing late due to disruption/special working etc.

Would open up a can of worms though - lots of people like the opportunity to earn extra, whilst it allows the operator to avoid the overheads associated with extra people.

The difference between LU and NR is that on LU if you are a couple of drivers short, you just run the line every 2.25 minutes instead of every 2 minutes and nobody really notices, on NR cancellations are more obvious.

 

[HH]

Not true, there is plenty of RDW at LOROL. Sundays are part of the normal working week though

I didn't say that there wasn't RDW on LOROL. I said that LO have Sundays in the working week and RDW is becoming less popular. The latter is definitely true; I know several depots where a significant number of drivers do no RDW and almost all the RDW is done by 40% or less of the drivers.

 

[Ambient Sheep]

Yup, well GN have just lost my (admittedly small amount of) business permanently over this.

I have to journey into King's Cross from Potters Bar and back a couple of times a month, often with a disabled friend. Usually this is on a weekday, but recently we needed to do it on Saturday 9th July. Imagine my reaction when I looked at the NR site just before I had to set off, and then what I found when I looked on this forum to see why that might be.

So what did we do?

We caught the 298 bus... not to Potters Bar Station as usual, but in the other direction to Cockfosters, just ten minutes down the road, and got the tube from there. On the way back we made the change at Southgate instead of Cockfosters, which saved us 60p and a set of steps (handy for my friend who has limited mobility).

We've now decided that that will be our permanent route into London, for various reasons:

1. We're guaranteed a seat on the tube (especially if we start at Cockfosters rather than Southgate); contrast that with trying to squeeze on at PBR when you're the last stop before Finsbury Park. Also, the Piccadilly trains have more luggage space available.

2. The numerous ECML tunnel entrances play havoc with our ears (I don't know how the regular commuters stand it) in a way that the fewer Piccadilly ones don't.

3. My friend doesn't have to traverse the entire length of King's Cross station from and to her train.

4. You don't have that delightful situation where you emerge from Potters Bar station after about 9pm (the exact time isn't made clear anywhere) to find that they've closed the normal station entrance, so you have to hoik all the way up round the back of the station, then down and up under the railway bridge, just in time to see your bus pull away from the front of the station. (Sometimes that happens even when you come out the front entrance, as the bus drivers seem to like to leave earlier than the indicated time.)

5. It costs less - even with my friend's Disabled Rail Card for National Rail and the fact she has no Freedom Pass for the tube (only for buses), it's still between 40p and £1 cheaper for us to do the tube route, depending on whether we start at Cockfosters or Southgate.

6. BUT MOSTLY - it seems that there's a far better chance that the bloody train will actually be running!

Thing is, were it not for GTR's cackhanded handling of this shift business causing such problems on that Saturday, I never would have bothered to find out that alternate route.

(Full disclosure: actually, I had researched & considered it previously, but my friend wouldn't countenance it as she's not generally keen on the tube... but having been forced to try it due to the GN cancellations, she now much prefers it and it will be our future travel method.)

Obviously not everyone is lucky enough to have such alternatives, but some other people must have, and all this hassle will only serve to decrease their revenues...

 

[A0]

Yup, well GN have just lost my (admittedly small amount of) business permanently over this.

I have to journey into King's Cross from Potters Bar and back a couple of times a month, often with a disabled friend. Usually this is on a weekday, but recently we needed to do it on Saturday 9th July. Imagine my reaction when I looked at the NR site just before I had to set off, and then what I found when I looked on this forum to see why that might be.

So what did we do?

We caught the 298 bus... not to Potters Bar Station as usual, but in the other direction to Cockfosters, just ten minutes down the road, and got the tube from there. On the way back we made the change at Southgate instead of Cockfosters, which saved us 60p and a set of steps (handy for my friend who has limited mobility).

We've now decided that that will be our permanent route into London, for various reasons:

1. We're guaranteed a seat on the tube (especially if we start at Cockfosters rather than Southgate); contrast that with trying to squeeze on at PBR when you're the last stop before Finsbury Park. Also, the Piccadilly trains have more luggage space available.

2. The numerous ECML tunnel entrances play havoc with our ears (I don't know how the regular commuters stand it) in a way that the fewer Piccadilly ones don't.

3. My friend doesn't have to traverse the entire length of King's Cross station from and to her train.

4. You don't have that delightful situation where you emerge from Potters Bar station after about 9pm (the exact time isn't made clear anywhere) to find that they've closed the normal station entrance, so you have to hoik all the way up round the back of the station, then down and up under the railway bridge, just in time to see your bus pull away from the front of the station. (Sometimes that happens even when you come out the front entrance, as the bus drivers seem to like to leave earlier than the indicated time.)

5. It costs less - even with my friend's Disabled Rail Card for National Rail and the fact she has no Freedom Pass for the tube (only for buses), it's still between 40p and £1 cheaper for us to do the tube route, depending on whether we start at Cockfosters or Southgate.

6. BUT MOSTLY - it seems that there's a far better chance that the bloody train will actually be running!

Thing is, were it not for GTR's cackhanded handling of this shift business causing such problems on that Saturday, I never would have bothered to find out that alternate route.

(Full disclosure: actually, I had researched & considered it previously, but my friend wouldn't countenance it as she's not generally keen on the tube... but having been forced to try it due to the GN cancellations, she now much prefers it and it will be our future travel method.)

Obviously not everyone is lucky enough to have such alternatives, but some other people must have, and all this hassle will only serve to decrease their revenues...

#1 isn't quite true - it's only true if you insist on getting the 'fast' services from Potters Bar - which since they have originated at Royston / Cambridge / Peterborough means they will have filled up somewhat.

Whereas if you get one of the inner suburban services, they will only have stopped at WGC, Hatfield, Welham Green and Brookmans Park, 2 of which serve very small places, so the 313 unit which rolls up will inevitably be less congested. Add in the fact if your friend has limited mobility, that will take you straight through to Highbury & Islington which gives you cross-platform change onto the Victoria line. Add in the fact the inners run every 20 mins, rather than every 30, and I'm puzzled why you'd bother getting the fast trains?

 

[bramling]

Not true, there is plenty of RDW at LOROL. Sundays are part of the normal working week though.
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The difference between LU and NR is that on LU if you are a couple of drivers short, you just run the line every 2.25 minutes instead of every 2 minutes and nobody really notices, on NR cancellations are more obvious.

Might be so as far as the passenger is concerned, however I can assure you that from an operational point of view LU plans and tries very hard to run 100% of its timetable. Every cancellation due to no driver is investigated and reported on, and reviewed at very senior level.

 

[MikeWM]

Seemed a lot better this weekend than it has been for months, at least on the Cambridge side. Mansged to get a train to Kings Cross on Saturday afternoon and one back Sunday evening without any issues - or any cancellation of services immediately before or after.

Just good luck, or has something improved behind-the-scenes?

 

[philjo]

There were a couple of cancellations on Saturday afternoon - the 16:30 from Cambridge was cancelled (& the 17:52 return working from Kings Cross which is always a busy service).
I was at Cambridge returning home so had to wait for the 16:55 - which was a very full 317 (4 coaches as it calls at the villages).

The morning service to Cambridge (08:52 from Kings cross) was very busy - it was 4 coaches with 1st class declassified. I got a seat in the front 1st class section - in standard in the front coach there were several people sitting on the floor down the aisle. I think this is usually run as 8 coaches & usually has plenty of seats available.

 

[jon0844]

Saturday saw our train cancelled but the earlier train that we were going to miss was delayed, which meant catching it and getting home earlier than expected. It would have been a right PITA to have had to wait for almost an hour, so we were very lucky.

The driver who took our train apologised and said he'd been due to go home and had been told to take it (to Cambridge). From sitting inside the carriage I can say that some people were clearly grateful, but one group were less happy and said it was bloody job, and then joking with each other about how easy it was to drive a train etc.

Perhaps the driver, who should be thanked, might want to avoid speaking in the future as many passengers are beyond showing any sympathy.

 

[Skimble19]

Seemed a lot better this weekend than it has been for months, at least on the Cambridge side. Mansged to get a train to Kings Cross on Saturday afternoon and one back Sunday evening without any issues - or any cancellation of services immediately before or after.

Just good luck, or has something improved behind-the-scenes?

Probably good luck, it does vary weekend to weekend, plus the cancellations this weekend seemed to be mainly limited to the inners which are generally less busy at weekends and still have a reasonably regular service even with some services cancelled.

 

[greatkingrat]

Hardly, the inner services are only every 30 minutes at weekends. Last night there were three consecutive cancellations on the Hertford North branch, that is a 2 hour gap in services.

 

[Skimble19]

Still better than cancelling the considerably busier services on the mainline where on Saturdays it's every 30 mins or one an hour on Sunday's.. (Excluding Cambridge and Peterborough fast/limited stop services). The loop and inner Welwyn services have a lot more alternative routes they can use from London too.. It's not ideal, but it's making the best of a bad situation.

 

[jon0844]

Not fun waiting at some of those stations with no phone signal or Wi-Fi! Or indeed anything to do, or toilets.

Last time I just left Essex Road and walked to Highbury & Islington to use the tube.

During this ongoing mess, it's actually quite annoying that trains go to Moorgate and not King's Cross at weekends. Obviously the key is to go to Finsbury Park by tube and you have a better chance!