22 class 185 units being released by TPE - Where could they go?

[eusd]

I'm surprised there isn't a case for them to be reformed into 4-car and 2-car subfleets??

 

[northwichcat]

What about:

EMT:

OUT:
18 x 153s (including the one they'll get from Northern next year)
25 x 158s

IN:
27 x 175s
14 x 156s from Anglia and Scotrail


ATW:

OUT:
30 x Pacers
27 x 175s

IN:
22 x 185s with option of receiving more post-2022
Mix of reformed 153s (possibly 60 will be available) and released 158s (up to 25 available) according to what works out best
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I'm surprised there isn't a case for them to be reformed into 4-car and 2-car subfleets??

Ignoring whether that's mechanically possible, if you were to refit them with an all standard class interior you wouldn't get more than 120 seats on a 2 car set, while you'd get around 270 seats on a 4 car set. Where would you use 2 car trains with 120 seats, noting that's a reduction in seating capacity over a 2 car 156, 158 or 175?

 

[pompeyfan]

The big concern is peak hour capacity, however there a number of off peak services/diagrams that could be run with 185's. However the problem is that there wouldn't be enough work for all 22 units.

However I do agree that by releasing 159's for use elsewhere would be good, as there's many more places that they would be useful.

This is why I suggested running them around as 6 cars with ASDO, put a couple on Weymouth as single sets too and that's a huge capacity boost on the Pompey Cardiff through Bristol where it's needed as well as on the hampshire end, massively reduces dwell times and then much desired 1589**s become available as is or as 2 coach units.

If you reformed a 185 wouldn't it affect toilet facilities? I'd assume the universal coach is in the centre car?

 

[AnonymousUser1]

Even if they had been 4 car sets they would've had a better chance of finding somewhere or proposing a more logical idea easier. It blows me away that someone thought that 280 odd seats on a commuter journey through one of England's busiest route (let alone the North), which was probably operated by 4 or 5 Mk(X) coaches before hand.

frequency ?

seats per hour ?

seems to be something the heritage traction bashers seem to forget when demanding LHCS or HSTs back on such routes

 

[lejog]

I would second that would make the climb over Copy Pit and out of Leeds a bit quicker, indeed this is a true Trans Pennine route

Although, as has already been posted, Blackpool-York is getting new rolling stock.

However the Manchester-Todmorden-Burnley-Blackburn service isn't and it crosses the Pennine watershed twice on its way from Manchester to East Lancs via Yorkshire!

I'm not sure that the state of the Copy Pit line and its susceptibility to subsidence would cope with the weight of the 185s though.

 

[Elecman]

Although, as has already been posted, Blackpool-York is getting new rolling stock.

However the Manchester-Todmorden-Burnley-Blackburn service isn't and it crosses the Pennine watershed twice on its way from Manchester to East Lancs via Yorkshire!

I'm not sure that the state of the Copy Pit line and its susceptibility to subsidence would cope with the weight of the 185s though.

It copes with frieght so I would think its ok

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is why I suggested running them around as 6 cars with ASDO, put a couple on Weymouth as single sets too and that's a huge capacity boost on the Pompey Cardiff through Bristol where it's needed as well as on the hampshire end, massively reduces dwell times and then much desired 1589**s become available as is or as 2 coach units.

If you reformed a 185 wouldn't it affect toilet facilities? I'd assume the universal coach is in the centre car?

No, it's at one end away from the rest of Standard, which is the biggest problem with their layout.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[ashworth]

Nottingham-Leeds-Settle-Carlisle-Glasgow for me 2 x 3-car formations. Tough gradients on S&C, units have first class. Go for it!

This always eventually comes up in this type of thread and is usually dismissed as a non starter and something from the past that will never be resurrected. I haven't the time to read through the whole thread from the beginning to see if it has already been suggested!

Perhaps it isn't such a bad idea and ought to be tried. Whether it would initially require 2 X 3 car formations I don't know. TPE always seem to have extremely good loadings on their Manchester to Glasgow services and so I would have thought that there ought to be potential for a speeded up through service from Yorkshire to Glasgow. Maybe Cross Country do not need to run beyond Edinburgh and a new service limited stop via the S&C could become the main route from Yorkshire to Glasgow using 185's. Starting at Nottingham instead of Leeds would be useful if this was to replace Cross Country as the main route to Glasgow as then Sheffield would also be served.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think it has got potential - good quality regional expresses do seem to attract traffic over low-quality stopping services using Sprinters and Pacers.

 

[The Ham]

Ignoring whether that's mechanically possible, if you were to refit them with an all standard class interior you wouldn't get more than 120 seats on a 2 car set, while you'd get around 270 seats on a 4 car set. Where would you use 2 car trains with 120 seats, noting that's a reduction in seating capacity over a 2 car 156, 158 or 175?

I would suggest that somewhere that during the peaks had demand for about 200 seats in a few peak services but required about 100 most of the rest of the time.

Just because a single unit doesn't provide the required capacity, it doesn't mean that a pair of 2 coach units wouldn't be suitable. The main reason it doesn't happen much now is that there is a shortage of DMU's. If the 185's are going spare with little need for them, then they may get used differently from the norm now.

I had suggested previously that a 10 coach train made of 2*4 coach and 1*2 coach (standard class only) could work well for SWT. With the extra 2 coach (standard only) running the Salisbury 6 services, either as single units and/or pairs of units.

 

[northwichcat]

I would suggest that somewhere that during the peaks had demand for about 200 seats in a few peak services but required about 100 most of the rest of the time.

But are there enough services for it to be a good idea to reform 185s given how many 2 car 170s are already available?

Just because a single unit doesn't provide the required capacity, it doesn't mean that a pair of 2 coach units wouldn't be suitable. The main reason it doesn't happen much now is that there is a shortage of DMU's. If the 185's are going spare with little need for them, then they may get used differently from the norm now.

I don't think that is the case. It's not really been that long since TPE have announced they are releasing them and they won't be released for 3 years yet. Bidders for the next SWT franchise are really the first who have the opportunity to look at whether they think 22 x 185s should join the franchise at the end of 2019. EMT, GWR, LM and ATW can't even look at 185s as they won't be released until after the current franchise expires. Northern could but they have secured all the stock they need for December 2019 and there may be other options available before they need the 36 additional carriages that they have committed to introduce in 2022.

Note the new Scotrail franchise announcement (announced in October 2014) made clear DMUs would be released during the course of the next franchise and confirmation that most of those DMUs had been secured for future use didn't happen before the Northern franchise being announced in December 2015.

 

[The Ham]

But are there enough services for it to be a good idea to reform 185s given how many 2 car 170s are already available?

Given that the most 2 car versions that would be created (assuming 4 car versions are the cause of the shorter version) is 11. As such it is hardly great numbers, and it could well be that the TOC that takes them on doesn't have 170's (although there are only a few TOC's for whom that would apply).

It would be a trade off for the ROSCO and the TOC to make.

It could even be that the two coach units sure sit idle, add it is better to lease 11 x 4 coach units rather than not lease any.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

I would like to ask a question from an engineering point of view... How hard would it be for part of a 185 coach to be converted to a mini food bar?

 

[Mordac]

I would like to ask a question from an engineering point of view... How hard would it be for part of a 185 coach to be converted to a mini food bar?

Because their capacity isn't small enough already?

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Because their capacity isn't small enough already?

I was asking from an engineering view if it was possible or not

 

[route:oxford]

I would like to ask a question from an engineering point of view... How hard would it be for part of a 185 coach to be converted to a mini food bar?

If it was proved necessary, would it not be better to shuffle units around between the franchises to make use of the 170s that that have the mini-bar?

 

[northwichcat]

Given that the most 2 car versions that would be created (assuming 4 car versions are the cause of the shorter version) is 11. As such it is hardly great numbers, and it could well be that the TOC that takes them on doesn't have 170's (although there are only a few TOC's for whom that would apply).

It would be a trade off for the ROSCO and the TOC to make.

It could even be that the two coach units sure sit idle, add it is better to lease 11 x 4 coach units rather than not lease any.

But then it's likely another batch of 185s will be released once Hull is wired and logically the second batch will go to the same TOC as the first.

 

[Mordac]

But then it's likely another batch of 185s will be released once Hull is wired and logically the second batch will go to the same TOC as the first.

Don't hold your breath waiting for Selby toHull to be wired. It was dropped at the Hendy reviews, and Hull Trains buying the 802s means they can do without it.

 

[The Ham]

But then it's likely another batch of 185s will be released once Hull is wired and logically the second batch will go to the same TOC as the first.

...to create 17 * 5 coach units to provide for the passenger growth that the TOC has seen.

In seriousness, when the other part of the class become available, then the TOC may then have need to run 2+3 coach units rather than 2+2 and 2+4 coach units rather than just 4 coach units.

It could well be that there would start to be need to replace 158's and 159's and so there could be a few more places that consider them, even if they aren't ideal.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would like to ask a question from an engineering point of view... How hard would it be for part of a 185 coach to be converted to a mini food bar?

Extremely easy - just bolt in some partitions etc. But the trend these days is towards trolleys - and part of that is passenger demand, not just cost-cutting. In the 1990s, few people carried anything of value on a train that didn't fit in their pocket - no phones, no tablets, no laptops etc. Now it's a faff to gather all those together to walk to the buffet, or you risk leaving them and getting them nicked.

Enhanced at-seat service (offering not just manky sandwiches and instant coffee, but rather quality products) is the future, really, combined with hugely enhanced station retail over that available 20 years ago.

 

[northwichcat]

In seriousness, when the other part of the class become available

We don't know if the entire 185 fleet will ever be released from TPE. There are no plans to electrify the entire South TPE route and unlike North TPE there won't be any benefit from introducing new 125mph stock.

However, if Hull gets electrified it would make sense to acquire EMUs which may result in around 10 more 185s being released on top of the 22 already being released and the TPE franchise agreement does include the option of obtaining more EMUs.

 

[tbtc]

I'd throw my hat in the Northern ring too. Middlesbrough - Carlisle is one obvious option, but aren't Northrn also going to be operating Leeds - Scarborough at some point? And as 185s run up and down there now that would be a second option for them too. And what about the S&C, are there many MU differentials on that line? Could 185s operate within 158 timings there too, if so the S&C would be another option.

The S&C would suit them - the problem is that there's just not enough DMUs required for the current bi-hourly timetable for them to make much of a dint in the stockpile of 185s.

If you are going to have 185s at Leeds to form services to Blackpool and to Manchester Victoria via the Calder Valley then a handful more would be great for the S&C, but it's never going to be busy enough to require more than a handful of DMUs on its own.

I'm not sure that there has ever been a reduction in seats per hour over the pennines since BR removed the Griddle Car from the original Trans-Pennine sets. Currently there are 15 cars per hour in each direction between Leeds and Manchester and that goes up to 21 at one point during the evening peak.
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Another point on this. The 1tph LHCS was replaced initially by 2tph Sprinters - but only as an interim until 158s were available. This was never a response to declining patronage - but an initiative to reduce costs and increase patronage. 158s were always crossing the pennines better than hourly.

Good points - this kind of thing is generally forgotten in threads about The Good Old Days of loco-hauled services

I seriously can't believe no one has considered them on the great western/former Wessex area, especially with ASDO beacons. There is lots of suitable routes for them with some reasonable gradients. They could displace the 158s up north where they'd be suited.

That'd get my vote, if it were enough to displace all of the 158s from the area - given that 166s will be providing some of the longer distance services (Bristol - Portsmouth etc).

There's been plenty of comments about the unsuitability of other stock climbing the Devon Banks... we have a number of unwanted DMUs that are famed for their hill climbing abilities... double coincidence of wants?

I'm surprised there isn't a case for them to be reformed into 4-car and 2-car subfleets??

Ignoring whether that's mechanically possible, if you were to refit them with an all standard class interior you wouldn't get more than 120 seats on a 2 car set, while you'd get around 270 seats on a 4 car set. Where would you use 2 car trains with 120 seats, noting that's a reduction in seating capacity over a 2 car 156, 158 or 175?

I'm with jcollins here - a two coach 185 would be pointless.

We have a thread about the difficulties of finding a future for some relatively non-standard DMUs... and solve it by splitting the fleet into two (or three?) to make them even more specialised?

the Manchester-Todmorden-Burnley-Blackburn service isn't and it crosses the Pennine watershed twice on its way from Manchester to East Lancs via Yorkshire!

I don't know how you are defining the watershed, but I wonder whether the "South TPE" line through the Hope Valley doesn't actually cross the Pennines?

The Pennine Way starts/ends north of the line at Edale Station, so does South TPE actually cross the Pennines?

Skipton-Colne

Nottingham-Leeds-Settle-Carlisle-Glasgow

D-stock

I only need "442s" and I've got Forum Bingo

 

[D6975]

We don't know if the entire 185 fleet will ever be released from TPE. There are no plans to electrify the entire South TPE route and unlike North TPE there won't be any benefit from introducing new 125mph stock.

The south TPE route will receive the class 68 hauled sets when the north route is fully electrified. Should be about 2025ish if we're lucky
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I only need "442s" and I've got Forum Bingo

No, you're still missing Okehampton...

 

[northwichcat]

The south TPE route will receive the class 68 hauled sets when the north route is fully electrified. Should be about 2025ish if we're lucky

The franchise agreement indicates 68s will be replaced by 88s once they become available and the new electric train order for TPE (post North TPE electrification) could be as few as 7 sets - so only enough to directly or indirectly cover what will be the remaining 185 services on North TPE. While there are options for more than 7 sets presumably that to allow for passenger growth on both North TPE and Scottish TPE.

 

[The Ham]

No, you're still missing Okehampton...

... remove the 442 motor coach and top and tail with 185's. Then run between Waterloo and Plymouth via Okehampton.

There you go problem solved!

 

[Philip]

Settle-Carlisle would be a waste of their top speed, except for between Carlisle and Glasgow and the MML, should a Notts-Glasgow service start.

Is there capacity at New Street to introduce a 3rd service between Manchester and Birmingham (perhaps carrying onto Cheltenham)? If there is then how about 9 doubled up 185s (so 18 out of the 22 in service per day) running an additional hourly fast shuttle between Manchester-Birmingham-Cheltenham?

 

[43074]

I only need "442s" and I've got Forum Bingo

Oh, and the new craze - finding a home for absolutely every single one of the 115 Class 321 and 322 units without exception just because they sound great and look nice.

 

[Bantamzen]

The S&C would suit them - the problem is that there's just not enough DMUs required for the current bi-hourly timetable for them to make much of a dint in the stockpile of 185s.

If you are going to have 185s at Leeds to form services to Blackpool and to Manchester Victoria via the Calder Valley then a handful more would be great for the S&C, but it's never going to be busy enough to require more than a handful of DMUs on its own

I know it's been mentioned already, and there is another route from Yorkshire but would there be any merit in extending the bi-hour S&Cs to Glasgow, and perhaps run some additional Leeds-Carlisle around the peaks? Then extra space available on 185s might prove useful for walkers, cyclists, tourists etc so there might be some extra demand there, and the S&C with additional capacity would be welcome up in the Pennines as well as in the Aire Valley.

As for the rest of what might be available, Glasgow/Carlisle to Middlesbrough is a decent option I believe, as would be a Yorkshire -Scarborough / Middlesbrough to link all the routes and allow units to fidn their way back closer to maintenance depots that csn look after them. I'm pretty sure Northern could find a use for most if not all.

 

[johnnychips]

I don't know how you are defining the watershed, but I wonder whether the "South TPE" line through the Hope Valley doesn't actually cross the Pennines?

The Pennine Way starts/ends north of the line at Edale Station, so does South TPE actually cross the Pennines?

The Pennine Way, as the late, great A A Wainwright pointed out, is an artificial construct, which omits some southern parts, then bolts the Cheviots onto the north end.

Above the Cowburn Tunnel is Brown Knoll, which is very Pennine-like, and above the Totley Tunnel, so is Dore Moor.

(However, this really is a bit like 'how long is a piece of string?', trying to decide where the Pennines start and finish; sorry for going off-topic).

 

[danielnez1]

I know it's been mentioned before, but the 185 might be good for the Tyne valley line, Durham Coast and the Newcastle - Morpeth/Chathill runs.

I'd rather see the 442s on these runs though. How about swapping the motor coaches for class 60s, suitably modified with end gangways, a wide offset walkway for passengers (made possible by replacing all of the obsolete computerised equipment with a Raspberry Pi) and bumping the max speed up to 100 mph. I'm sure that would all be feasible.