22 class 185 units being released by TPE - Where could they go?

[Mordac]

I'd throw my hat in the Northern ring too. Middlesbrough - Carlisle is one obvious option, but aren't Northrn also going to be operating Leeds - Scarborough at some point? And as 185s run up and down there now that would be a second option for them too. And what about the S&C, are there many MU differentials on that line? Could 185s operate within 158 timings there too, if so the S&C would be another option.

No MU differentials on the S&C.

 

[Clansman]

No MU differentials on the S&C.

Any on Glasgow to Carlisle via Dumfries > and onto Newcastle?
(I think Stranraer has MU differentials but not sure)

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Any on Glasgow to Carlisle via Dumfries > and onto Newcastle?
(I think Stranraer has MU differentials but not sure)

It was mentioned in the last few days on this thread that on the G&SW "main" there's only a short section but the Stranraer branch would be more problematic for 185s (not to mention that it haemorrhages money as it is, let alone being run with a hefty, thirsty 185!).

 

[Mordac]

Any on Glasgow to Carlisle via Dumfries > and onto Newcastle?
(I think Stranraer has MU differentials but not sure)

See post #274 :P

 

[Clansman]

It was mentioned in the last few days on this thread that on the G&SW "main" there's only a short section but the Stranraer branch would be more problematic for 185s (not to mention that it haemorrhages money as it is, let alone being run with a hefty, thirsty 185!).

So Glasgow to Dumfries/Carlisle/Newcastle would fit the bill? Would the MU differentials on that short section you stated be problematic for the 185s in general (outwith Stranraer)?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

So Glasgow to Dumfries/Carlisle/Newcastle would fit the bill? Would the MU differentials on that short section you stated be problematic for the 185s in general (outwith Stranraer)?

The user that mentioned it seemed to suggest that their superior acceleration would nullify the restriction, much like is currently the case between Selby and Hull.

 

[Mordac]

So Glasgow to Dumfries/Carlisle/Newcastle would fit the bill? Would the MU differentials on that short section you stated be problematic for the 185s in general (outwith Stranraer)?

It's 9 chords long. I doubt it would make any difference.

 

[380101]

Been looking into this, apparently there's only one MU differential in the GWSL, a 9 chord long section of track near Hurlford, where the differential is 40/65. There's none on the Tyne Valley line either. For what this is worth.

EDIT: There's many more on the Stranraer line, so perhaps forget about that one.

That stretch is 40/65 with the 65 being DMU speed so it shouldn't affect the 185 as it's a DMU. I sign that route and it has a fair camber on the track at that point which must affect freight locos which requires them to pass over it at 40mph. Sure the 221 voyagers went at 65 over it during the Lamington viaduct diversions in January.

 

[Mordac]

That stretch is 40/65 with the 65 being DMU speed so it shouldn't affect the 185 as it's a DMU. I sign that route and it has a fair camber on the track at that point which must affect freight locos which requires them to pass over it at 40mph. Sure the 221 voyagers went at 65 over it during the Lamington viaduct diversions in January.

185s aren't allowed to use MU differentials, despite being MUs. Check the sectional appendix! That's the problem with finding a home for them. it's so short it doesn't really matter, though.

It's interesting to know why the restriction is there though, thanks for that! I've never been on that line, really must go sometime.

 

[Class 170101]

Here is a novel idea - up the maintenance regime so the 185s may operate to their full potential on lines one wishes to use them on.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

What class of unit (excluding one-offs and prototypes) has had the shortest life between construction and scrapping? I'm starting to wonder if the 185s could beat the record

 

[61653 HTAFC]

What class of unit (excluding one-offs and prototypes) has had the shortest life between construction and scrapping? I'm starting to wonder if the 185s could beat the record

They've already outlived the 151s in terms of useful life... Quite a few of the smaller fleets of first-generation units lasted less than a decade is service too, in particular the 109s (though one survived in departmental use and some of the others were exported).

EDIT: Guess the 151s would be classed as prototypes though...

 

[Tracked]

What class of unit (excluding one-offs and prototypes) has had the shortest life between construction and scrapping? I'm starting to wonder if the 185s could beat the record

in recent years maybe the 141s, 20 years?

 

[D365]

I'm starting to wonder if the 185s could beat the record

Not really, because they will remain in use on the South TPE route for the foreseeable.

Speaking of which, wouldn't using the spare units on Northern's Sheffield-Manchester and Sheffield-Doncaster/Scunthorpe stopping services work out? As that mostly follows the same route as TPE.

 

[Class 170101]

I would also argue between Blackpool North and York (Scarborough???) via Blackburn, Hebden Bridge and Leeds may be acceptable as well.

 

[Elecman]

I would also argue between Blackpool North and York (Scarborough???) via Blackburn, Hebden Bridge and Leeds may be acceptable as well.

I would second that would make the climb over Copy Pit and out of Leeds a bit quicker, indeed this is a true Trans Pennine route

 

[randyrippley]

Morecambe-Leeds please. We need some acceleration and extra service provision on that route.
If they were put on the Morecambe-Leeds, Leeds-Settle-Carlisle, Blackpool-Blackburn-Leeds, and a reopened Preston-Blackburn-Hellifield then you'd have a concise self-contained hill-route network ideally suited to these overpowered units. Ideally Skipton-Colne would be reopened as well, giving a urgently required upgrade to Lancs-Yorks services.
All the "nothern powerhouse" upgrades ignore any improvement to northern or east lancs services. Using the 185s to provide faster more frequent services on these routes would give a cheap but significant upgrade to the economies of this neglected part of England

 

[D365]

... indeed this is a true Trans Pennine route

So won't it be making use of the new rolling stock?

 

[northwichcat]

What class of unit (excluding one-offs and prototypes) has had the shortest life between construction and scrapping? I'm starting to wonder if the 185s could beat the record

I can't see any 185s being scrapped while there are still Sprinters in service but possibly the 185s could go before the 170s but not before the 175s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Modern units are quite modular. If they're overpowered, the engines could be swapped for smaller ones or some removed. If they're too heavy because of the bogie design, no doubt they could be replaced as the ones on the D-stock were due to cracking. They won't be going anywhere so long as second generation (Sprinter) DMUs remain in service. It might even be possible to do something like removing all the engines and inserting a new-build (Desiro City pattern) pantograph power coach to use as an EMU.

Lots of options.

 

[Philip]

Class 185s should be used for intercity work, they are good enough units for the purpose. They are more than just a glorified 150 and so they'd be wasted on short local services. The main problem is the overcrowding but that is due to the fleet currently being stretched on busy routes.

I'd like to see a revised Manchester-South Wales service once the franchise is re-let...and by this I mean Manchester-Cardiff-Manchester-Cardiff with stops between Shrewsbury and Hereford omitted to make it more of an express service. Make use of the spare 22 185s by running them doubled up on this service. With stops between Shrewsbury and Hereford omitted it would speed up journey times, even allowing for 185s having to run at reduced, non-Sprinter speeds. Holyhead-Cardiff (and beyond) should be catering for the intermediate stops on the Marches, not the Manchester service.

 

[Clansman]

My heart says Scotrail, but realistically and logically, my head says Arriva and Northern.

Probably the only 2 (all 3?) with actual convincing cases/proposals which would make sense in more ways than 1.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Class 185s should be used for intercity work, they are good enough units for I'd like to see a revised Manchester-South Wales service once the franchise is re-let...and by this I mean Manchester-Cardiff-Manchester-Cardiff with stops between Shrewsbury and Hereford omitted to make it more of an express service.

Provided such a service stops at Wilmslow, retaining the first-class accommodation that is so sadly lacking in the Class 175 units, then you have my blessing for such a service coupled with my undying gratitude.

 

[Elecman]

So won't it be making use of the new rolling stock?

No Blackpool York is a Northern Route not TPE

 

[Philip]

Provided such a service stops at Wilmslow, retaining the first-class accommodation that is so sadly lacking in the Class 175 units, then you have my blessing for such a service coupled with my undying gratitude.

More likely Crewe and Shrewsbury will be omitted before Wilmslow - EVERYTHING seems to stop there. The toilets on 175s stink and the smell can leak into the vestibule area. A 185 is much easier to use than a 175 in terms of getting on and off. The door layout doesn't bother me, neither do the seats and the interior in general just feels more airy and fresh than on a 175. But they need to run in multiple because they're too short on their own for 'big work'.

 

[Mordac]

No Blackpool York is a Northern Route not TPE

I think it will be Northern Connect, though, so should get the 195s.

 

[matacaster]

Nottingham-Leeds-Settle-Carlisle-Glasgow for me 2 x 3-car formations. Tough gradients on S&C, units have first class. Go for it!

 

[The Ham]

Just how long do you think it takes to get to Exeter?

Using the current timetable for an example, the 08:20 from Waterloo will reach Yeovil Junction around 10:38 and Exeter for 11:42

That service will depart to sidings at St Davids before returning to form the 12;25 to Waterloo arriving at around 15:49, departing again as the 16:20 (this service will tend to join up with another 159 at Salisbury from Bristol and a 158 from the depot)

West of Salisbury the only stations which can't take a 6 coach is Feniton & Tisbury

I was adrift by 30 minutes. Your timings have it taking 8 hours to run from Waterloo to Exeter and back I had it has about 8.5, but wasn't sure in the exact times so had said about.

The run from Waterloo to Yeovil you have as 2 hours, allow for turn around at each end and being able to run out again is probably close to the 5 hours I had allowed.

 

[pompeyfan]

'The Ham' - you need to remove your Last E from Yeovil.

I seriously can't believe no one has considered them on the great western/former Wessex area, especially with ASDO beacons. There is lots of suitable routes for them with some reasonable gradients. They could displace the 158s up north where they'd be suited.

 

[The Ham]

'The Ham' - you need to remove your Last E from Yeovil.

I seriously can't believe no one has considered them on the great western/former Wessex area, especially with ASDO beacons. There is lots of suitable routes for them with some reasonable gradients. They could displace the 158s up north where they'd be suited.

The big concern is peak hour capacity, however there a number of off peak services/diagrams that could be run with 185's. However the problem is that there wouldn't be enough work for all 22 units.

However I do agree that by releasing 159's for use elsewhere would be good, as there's many more places that they would be useful.