22 class 185 units being released by TPE - Where could they go?

[Whistler40145]

Where else can they go?

No use on Marshlink and Uckfield services, wasted on the Settle and Carlisle line, could be used on the North Wales Coast, but probably won't.

No use for Northern on stopping services as that's a complete waste of resources.

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[The Ham]

I can see that 185s aren't at all suitable for XC services, they're no substitute for 170s, 220s & 221s.

If Liverpool to Norwich wasn't under EMT and was with XC then both Liverpool to Norwich and Birmingham to Stansted Airport could go over to 185s, thus making 170s available for extra services or provide double units on Nottingham to Cardiff services.

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Liverpool to Norwich wouldn't be suitable for 185's (covered a number of times within this thread).

I would agree that 185's probably aren't ideal units for XC, however XC need more units and given that there aren't any 22x's currently available (and 170's aren't going to be any use on 125mph lines), what other units could be used?

 

[Clansman]

How many times does it have to be said that the 185s are too heavy and would lose time east of Peterborough!

Beat me to it. There's no logic (in my opinion) in replacing a 158 with a 185. Less capacity, too heavy and unsuited layout wise for express runs. No disrespect to anyone suggesting this, I just can't see it working on a beneficial front.

Where else can they go?
No use on Marshlink and Uckfield services, wasted on the Settle and Carlisle line, could be used on the North Wales Coast, but probably won't.
No use for Northern on stopping services as that's a complete waste of resources.
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There's a small case for Scotrail which hasn't really been scrutinised in detail yet on this thread. I'm not sure if there's one for Arriva - which I've left uncrossed before we scrutinise it in. I'm debating whether XC should be crossed out.

I would agree that 185's probably aren't ideal units for XC, however XC need more units and given that there aren't any 22x's currently available (and 170's aren't going to be any use on 125mph lines), what other units could be used?

I've not read through any documents of the XC Franchise, but I can say that even if it is highlighted that the HSTs need replacing in future, or if new trains need to be acquired (soon), I can see that being a complete new order of trains or in a more rare case - a cascade of other units more suited for the job, 222s fit the bill more but I can't see that happening soon either, and the 222s will probably be around 15-20 years old by the time they come off-lease.

 

[northwichcat]

No use for Northern on stopping services as that's a complete waste of resources.

185s would seem better suited to stopping services than 158s and 156s! Only problem is 185s are shorter than pairs of 156s and 158s while doubled up 185s would be too long for a lot of platforms on local lines if they are used on all-stops services.

 

[Clansman]

185s would seem better suited to stopping services than 158s and 156s! Only problem is 185s are shorter than pairs of 156s and 158s while doubled up 185s would be too long for a lot of platforms on local lines if they are used on all-stops services.

No chance unfortunately. As already highlighted - 185s can't match sprinter timings.

 

[northwichcat]

No chance unfortunately. As already highlighted - 185s can't match sprinter timings.

Really?

Class 158 timing from Liverpool to Manchester Oxford Road stopping at 3 stations on the way is 46 minutes.

Class 185 timing from Liverpool to Manchester Oxford Road stopping at 3 stations on the way is 46 minutes.

Class 150/153/156 timing from Manchester Airport to Manchester Piccadilly non-stop is 15.5 minutes.

Class 175 timing from Manchester Airport to Manchester Piccadilly non-stop is 17 minutes.

Class 185 timing from Manchester Airport to Manchester Piccadilly non-stop is 16 minutes.

I imagine the slight differences in timings between the Airport and Piccadilly is more down to pathing than certain types of train being faster than others.

 

[Clansman]

Really?

Class 158 timing from Liverpool to Manchester Oxford Road stopping at 3 stations on the way is 46 minutes.

Class 185 timing from Liverpool to Manchester Oxford Road stopping at 3 stations on the way is 46 minutes.

Class 150/153/156 timing from Manchester Airport to Manchester Piccadilly non-stop is 15.5 minutes.

Class 175 timing from Manchester Airport to Manchester Piccadilly non-stop is 17 minutes.

Class 185 timing from Manchester Airport to Manchester Piccadilly non-stop is 16 minutes.

I imagine the slight differences in timings between the Airport and Piccadilly is more down to pathing than certain types of train being faster than others.

I'm only going by what previous members have stated. Maybe I should have changed "can't match" to "unsuitable for". Something along those lines anyway. I think someone a few pages back attached a screenshot from a document which states the (un)suitability of 185s use on Sprinter routes or similar.

 

[The Ham]

I've not read through any documents of the XC Franchise, but I can say that even if it is highlighted that the HSTs need replacing in future, or if new trains need to be acquired (soon), I can see that being a complete new order of trains or in a more rare case - a cascade of other units more suited for the job, 222s fit the bill more but I can't see that happening soon either, and the 222s will probably be around 15-20 years old by the time they come off-lease.

First off, is there any XC franchise documents? IIRC it's up for an extension at present and so there is no specification.

HST replacement would be circa 40-45 coaches which wouldn't normally be enough to justify a new build on their own. As soon as XC look at another sort of train to replace the 22x's then the lease costs for the 22x's would fall to ensure that XC carry on using them (as there is nowhere else very suitable for them to go).

With the 222's not very useful for anywhere else other than XC, then once XC has them it could well be that we see some of the shorter 22x's having end coaches scrapped/stored so as to enable longer sets to be formed.

For instance the 4 units of 222's with 4 coaches could be reformed to lengthen 4 of the 5 coach units to 7 coach units. The 220's could also be reformed from 34 units with 4 coaches into 21 units with 5 coaches with the last 2 x 220's and the 4 coach 221 and another 221 being formed into 7 coach units. That would give XC 12 units with 7 coaches and 55 units with 5 coaches (a total of 67 units vs the current 57 units).

 

[northwichcat]

I'm only going by what previous members have stated. Maybe I should have changed "can't match" to "unsuitable for". Something along those lines anyway. I think someone a few pages back attached a screenshot from a document which states the (un)suitability of 185s use on Sprinter routes or similar.

185s have to run at lower speeds than Sprinters on the Hope Valley line and the Selby-Hull line but guess which two routes are keeping 185s after TPE gets new stock? I think Nottingham to Norwich the possibly of using 185s has been looked at and been dismissed.

 

[WatcherZero]

I'm only going by what previous members have stated. Maybe I should have changed "can't match" to "unsuitable for". Something along those lines anyway. I think someone a few pages back attached a screenshot from a document which states the (un)suitability of 185s use on Sprinter routes or similar.

It doesn't fail the timings on speed but weight terms. Weak bridges cant take the heavier train at the same speed.

 

[Clansman]

First off, is there any XC franchise documents? IIRC it's up for an extension at present and so there is no specification.

HST replacement would be circa 40-45 coaches which wouldn't normally be enough to justify a new build on their own. As soon as XC look at another sort of train to replace the 22x's then the lease costs for the 22x's would fall to ensure that XC carry on using them (as there is nowhere else very suitable for them to go).

With the 222's not very useful for anywhere else other than XC, then once XC has them it could well be that we see some of the shorter 22x's having end coaches scrapped/stored so as to enable longer sets to be formed.

For instance the 4 units of 222's with 4 coaches could be reformed to lengthen 4 of the 5 coach units to 7 coach units. The 220's could also be reformed from 34 units with 4 coaches into 21 units with 5 coaches with the last 2 x 220's and the 4 coach 221 and another 221 being formed into 7 coach units. That would give XC 12 units with 7 coaches and 55 units with 5 coaches (a total of 67 units vs the current 57 units).

Just more so thinking that based on the number of TOCs with new orders for the future: Scotrail, Northern, Greater Anglia, GWR, VTEC etc then XC might follow suit. It would work out more efficient ordering just now along with the other batch of orders from other TOCs, and work out more beneficial for passengers in the present and future. There's no danger (surely not?) that the Voyagers will live out a similar life span of it's predecessors at XC?

 

[LowLevel]

I believe some 222 maintenance also takes place there.

It used to, but I don't think anything goes there anymore since the new shed at Etches Park was opened. I don't think EMT drivers sign over there anymore.

 

[swt_passenger]

First off, is there any XC franchise documents? IIRC it's up for an extension at present and so there is no specification.

One piece of info online for the period of the direct award is the track access application, it includes the following key paragraph:

The proposed contract varies little from the existing XCTL contract. It contains the
same quantum of services as currently operate, over the same routes with the same rolling stock....

http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0006/17979/s17-xc-trains-application-form.pdf

That will take us up to May 2020 if agreed, as it most likely will be.

 

[Clansman]

So ideally, the 185s would suite a route which is commuter distance, preferably utilising top speed (or near enough), similar terrain for purpose, fair demand for capacity - not too little nor too much. Through the more feasible suggestions, we've scrutinised XC. Where else can these units fit the criteria and actually be of benefit? I can't see one for Wales as such, but I do see a one market for them up here in Scotland. Glasgow to Stranraer/Dumfries/Carlisle/Newcastle seems to me one of the few routes which the 185s would suit and be beneficial.

 

[Mordac]

Ah I see the logic now. I'm trying hard not to balance logic over personal wishes lol. As much as I dislike the Voyagers I do find them more comfortable than the 185s, and I prefer the 'express layout' as well. I just can't imagine a pair of 185s in XC livery working 4hour+ journeys (albeit practically 2 point to point journeys running conjoining from a commuter point of view), and the HSTs being replaced by the displaced Voyagers!

Also, with the route between Manchester and Birmingham New Street peaking at 125mph, how does this work journey time wise? Do Voyagers normally operate at the speed limit or 110mph due to the TASS being disabled on XC units? The 185s aren't capable of more than 100mph ( a case re-gearing for 110 maybe?) so would how would Speed-Acceleration balance up along the route in a case of Voyager vs 185?

Knowing how TOCs go about business now a days I wouldn't be surprised if the XC argument for 185s was killed stone dead through the "although would require more staff" statement - probably best to not provoke anyone on this matter *Cough* - DOO - *Cough*

The Birmingham loop doesn't need TASS for 125mph running, MU differentials allow this, which the Voyagers meet with or without the tilt being enabled.

 

[Clansman]

The Birmingham loop doesn't need TASS for 125mph running, MU differentials allow this, which the Voyagers meet with or without the tilt being enabled.

Ah right ok. I wasn't sure where the tilting is mainly beneficial out with Preston to Scotland for speed wise.

 

[Whistler40145]

I could see 185s being a welcome improvement on Newcastle to Glasgow via Carlisle services and would free up 156/158s for other services. Are there any clearance issues for them to work through to Stranraer?

Could 185s keep time on the Edinburgh Waverley to Tweedbank services?

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[1179_Clee2]

185's WHERE ARE THEY GOING ????? Lets look at the various TOC's which might use them.
Trans Pennine have released them.
Scotrail, Northern and Greater Anglia have new franchises which have train fleets ALL SORTED. If unexpected growth is needed you just ADD ON to the NEW BUILD being built for each TOC.
Southern and South West Trains will not want Northern England cast off's, Southern has 5 Class 170's on sub lease and SWT will go for NEW BUILD
Chiltern, London Midland and XC could use Anglia 170's when released. XC will not want more diesel ONLY trains LONG TERM, as the more of the knitting that gets put up, diesel running under electric lines will be frowned on. BI MODE ????
Great Western just keep ordering more new build 803's and 387's.
This leaves Wales and East Midland. Both options mean the trains could still be based at Adwick in Manchester. My personal feeling is EMT for Liverpool to Norwich, as using them in Wales limits most services to 3 car trains without reforming them.
This will give the Welsh Assembly more options for Wales, you are going to need 15 DMU's to replace Angel trains 142's as Angel do not want to use them in 2000.
Wales could use on 158's released from EMT for longer distance working and cascade 150/2's to replace 142's or use cascaded 143's AND/OR 144's or a combo of the two.
This means long distance trains can be run in 2,3 or 4 car and valley lines could be run with 5 car pacer's by using the 3 car 144's. A 5 car pacer is about the same length as a 4 car sprinter.
ANY BODY GOT ANY BETTER IDEA'S LOOKING AT ALL TOC'S THAT USE 100mph DMU'S

 

[Clansman]

I could see 185s being a welcome improvement on Newcastle to Glasgow via Carlisle services and would free up 156/158s for other services. Are there any clearance issues for them to work through to Stranraer?

Could 185s keep time on the Edinburgh Waverley to Tweedbank services?

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I don't think clearance would be an issue on Stranraer route, and I also think the 185s would be a welcomed benefit on the route.

As for Tweedbank there's little to no chance. There won't be much issue with the timings on the Tweedbank stretch but remember that borders services often operate through to Fife, and a 185 through Fife displacing 170s and 158s wouldn't be any benefit capacity or operational wise. Since Scotrail are retaining 13 class 170s that eliminates the need to replace 170s/158s on their primary routes: Borders and Fife included. On the Lowlands, the 185s would be able to operate as a primary fleet on it's own, without the need for passenger operational compatibility with other fleet members (although does decrease stock flexibility which isn't really a big issue on this line). In turn this would displace the 156s which could strengthen services anywhere on the Scotrail network which is operated by an Edinburgh/Glasgow guard and compatible with 170s/158s - thus being more beneficial to Tweedbank and Fife than the 185s from an operational point of view.

 

[northwichcat]

Scotrail, Northern and Greater Anglia have new franchises which have train fleets ALL SORTED. If unexpected growth is needed you just ADD ON to the NEW BUILD being built for each TOC.

Incorrect. Northern have to secure 18 x 170s or equivalent by 2022 in addition to the units they have secured. 185s could be classed as equivalent to 170s - they have already been for the purpose of the TPE franchise agreement having equivalents to 4 x 170s which left for Chiltern!

Also worth remembering Northern, Anglia and TPE have ordered new diesel powered trains, if the new trains are delayed they might need an interim solution.

 

[Clansman]

185's WHERE ARE THEY GOING ????? Lets look at the various TOC's which might use them.
Trans Pennine have released them.
Scotrail, Northern and Greater Anglia have new franchises which have train fleets ALL SORTED. If unexpected growth is needed you just ADD ON to the NEW BUILD being built for each TOC.

Incorrect on a couple of aspects.
I wouldn't say it's fair to say that Scotrail has it's fleet "All Sorted". Apparently, the fleet was "all sorted" before the announcement of the retention of 13 170s. Anything is still on the cards as far as Scotrail is concerned. Anglia and Northern have ordered new trains to replace the majority of their fleets, while Scotrail have ordered new units to partly displace the older fleets due to them being surplus on newly electrified routes. Bearing in mind the electrification is scheduled to be completed in around 2020. On the subject of the 185s there's no little to no possibility being used on anywhere North of Glasgow or Edinburgh (same could be said for any TOC to be honest), but if you look at the route we were discussing (Lowlands) you'll find that they are not benefiting from any of the major projects, such as EGIP, where old units would be surplus to requirements. The demand for extra capacity on Tweedbank will probably grow in the next 2 years so any displaced stock from 185s on the Lowlands would be welcomed on both Lowlands and Borders/Fife.

Incorrect. Northern have to secure 18 x 170s or equivalent by 2022 in addition to the units they have secured. 185s could be classed as equivalent to 170s - they have already been for the purpose of the TPE franchise agreement having equivalents to 4 x 170s which left for Chiltern!
Also worth remembering Northern, Anglia and TPE have ordered new diesel powered trains, if the new trains are delayed they might need an interim solution.

This.

 

[Whistler40145]

Do we know what's happening to the LM 170s following the electrification of the Cannock Chase line?

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[Clansman]

Do we know what's happening to the LM 170s following the electrification of the Cannock Chase line?

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No. I think this was discussed in the "Class 172" thread. I'm not sure what's happening with it stock wise. The thread discusses possibilities where the 170s could go, and I think it was established that Chiltern would be the best option maintenance and operational wise. Although, proposals aren't the same as reality.

EDIT: Link

 

[1179_Clee2]

Incorrect. Northern have to secure 18 x 170s or equivalent by 2022 in addition to the units they have secured. 185s could be classed as equivalent to 170s - they have already been for the purpose of the TPE franchise agreement having equivalents to 4 x 170s which left for Chiltern!

Also worth remembering Northern, Anglia and TPE have ordered new diesel powered trains, if the new trains are delayed they might need an interim solution.

incorrect. Northern cannot use 185's it is written in the ITT.

 

[northwichcat]

incorrect. Northern cannot use 185's it is written in the ITT.

No. The ITT required Northern bidders to propose a December 2019 train plan which couldn't include 185s (to avoid a potential clash with the TPE bids.) The extra trains have to be secured by 2022 and haven't been secured yet so could be anything which is equivalent to 170s if it isn't 170s. The 170s other than the ones being released by Scotrail were also excluded by the ITT as bidders were only allowed to propose taking on trains which would be freed up at the time of the bid. Therefore, if the original ITT terms for rolling stock are going to apply for 2022 then the only option will be 18 x new trains and the franchise agreement would say that.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Northern can use anything extra they want now (as long as their paymasters are happy) as the Northern ITT was purely for the purposes of bidding.

 

[Whistler40145]

Could we see London Midland gaining some 170s and Northern receiving 172s?

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[Clansman]

Could we see London Midland gaining some 170s and Northern receiving 172s?

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Most likely not, but the opposite of what you are proposing would work out better for both TOCs and would be the most probable out of the 2.

 

[Whistler40145]

170s aren't that bad a unit, I think they would be most suitable for Northern.

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[Clansman]

170s aren't that bad a unit, I think they would be most suitable for Northern.

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Ye, they are suitable for Northern - hence why they are receiving some going off lease from Scotrail. When you weigh up the numbers on Northern's fleet in the next few years you'll find that there will probably be little requirement for more trains - this isn't me saying they don't need more trains by the way, before someone tries to call me out on it