22 class 185 units being released by TPE - Where could they go?

[Whistler40145]

Would they not be more suitable e.g Waterloo to Exeter St David's or Cardiff/Bristol to Portsmouth Harbour/Brighton services?

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[Prestige15]

Would they not be more suitable e.g Waterloo to Exeter St David's or Cardiff/Bristol to Portsmouth Harbour/Brighton services?

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Possibly sutiable to the Cardiff - Portsmouth and maybe the Brighton - Great Malvern.I know some say the 165/166 would be used there but any company can change their mind like they have done about the class 365 so see what happens.

The london - Exeter line, i highly doubt the fat 185's would fare well with the slim 159's especially the seating capacity. Kinda reminds me of Goofy and Pete from Disney for some reason

 

[The Ham]

Capacity on the SWT's services could be met by reformed to be 4 and 2 coach units (swapping one coach from one to the other) and making the 2 coach units standard only.

 

[Jamesrob637]

I'd love to see 185s between Exeter/Plymouth and Paignton, especially in summer when services could be extended to 6 cars in high tourist season. It'd be a definite improvement on the 142 and even the 158s. Plus, the air con does actually function on the 185s (most of the time!)

 

[D365]

Plus, the air con does actually function on the 185s (most of the time!)

I must have been one of the unlucky few...

 

[1179_Clee2]

Just because the ITT for the new SWT franchise say it can use 185's in its bid does not mean either bidder will !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The ITT for the TPX franchise said it could use loco hauled 442's and the winning bidder chose new build.
Take the recent award in Anglia into account, that new build is the way to go.
As the SWT franchise is a two horse race, the winning will obviously be the one that outbids the other, I doubt any Northern England cast off's will be included in either bid.
If I was bidding ALL the 455's AND 456's would go AND would use BI MODE for Waterloo to Exeter ect, something along the lines of a Stadler Flirt or similar.

 

[Whistler40145]

Class 185s surely are best suited to lines where their top speed is achievable, therefore you can discount use on the Uckfield/Marshlink lines and probably the Waterloo to Exeter via The Mule.

It's no good sticking them on an all stations stopping service, Express services are far more suitable, plus they're quite an economic unit and have the ability to shutdown an engine to be more fuel efficient.

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[The Ham]

Just because the ITT for the new SWT franchise say it can use 185's in its bid does not mean either bidder will !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The ITT for the TPX franchise said it could use loco hauled 442's and the winning bidder chose new build.
Take the recent award in Anglia into account, that new build is the way to go.
As the SWT franchise is a two horse race, the winning will obviously be the one that outbids the other, I doubt any Northern England cast off's will be included in either bid.
If I was bidding ALL the 455's AND 456's would go AND would use BI MODE for Waterloo to Exeter ect, something along the lines of a Stadler Flirt or similar.

That would be quite a lot of new stock, especially as TfL are likely to taking over a lot of the routes that 455's and 456's would be running and they would probably specify new build when they take over if it hasn't already been done. Also there's the issue of it being a 10 coach service at present and 12 coaches are likely to be possible in the not too distant future. That's not to say that there won't be new trains, rather if I s the bid team I would rather spend my money elsewhere and leave it to TfL.

Depending on what it would do to the acceleration curve and top speed, it could be possible to build two new coaches to insert into the 185's, both with electric motors and one with a paragraph well. In that way you could create a bimodal unit. It would be able to run at 100 mph on this rail (with future provision for running off of OHLE) although with the weight of the original coaches it may not be quite as nippy as a straight EMU, but then the diesel engines could give a little push when starting off. It could probably be able to keep up with the 159's beyond Basingstoke when running on its engines.

 

[Haydn1971]

Depending on what it would do to the acceleration curve and top speed, it could be possible to build two new coaches to insert into the 185's, both with electric motors and one with a paragraph well. In that way you could create a bimodal unit. It would be able to run at 100 mph on this rail (with future provision for running off of OHLE) although with the weight of the original coaches it may not be quite as nippy as a straight EMU, but then the diesel engines could give a little push when starting off. It could probably be able to keep up with the 159's beyond Basingstoke when running on its engines.

No, this is a silly idea, Siemens have moved on with their Desiro product and are very unlikely to want to build a small order of specialist carriages that are compatible with a product that is currently 10 years old and a design that's at least 15 years old. Not only that, transforming them into bi-modes is a technical challenge that is simply not going to happen. The 185s will definitely remain as DMUs, they are also very likely to be linked to the current depot in Manchester, which means either remaining with TPE (unlikely), transferring to Northern (more likely), or North Wales (possible ), or EMT (perhaps a slightly better option than Northern) or VECT to help release some Voyagers (unlikely) or XC to help release some Voyagers (unlikely). Moving them anywhere else means a new or modernised facility will be required for a small fleet, new maintenance staff and starting fresh with train crew on a small fleet, all barriers that are reduced by keeping the fleet based in Manchester.

 

[Whistler40145]

If the 185s are to remain based in Manchester, could Arriva Trains Wales take some under their wing and use them on Manchester Piccadilly to Cardiff and Manchester Piccadilly to North Wales Coast services?

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[SpacePhoenix]

Outside of Northern / TPE the most likely will probably be SWT, AGA or Scotrail as all three have experience with electric Desiros

 

[northwichcat]

Outside of Northern / TPE the most likely will probably be SWT, AGA or Scotrail as all three have experience with electric Desiros

AGA - probably the last place any trains are being cascaded to given they are replacing existing trains with plenty of life left in them like 170s and 360s with brand new trains.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If the 185s are to remain based in Manchester, could Arriva Trains Wales take some under their wing and use them on Manchester Piccadilly to Cardiff and Manchester Piccadilly to North Wales Coast services?

I think we're going around in circles here. However, I think we can say with certainty that if franchise operating areas don't include unexpected changes then we can rule out them going to Merseyrail, c2c, LO, Heathrow Express, Heathrow Connect, Caledonian Sleeper, VT, VTEC, Southeastern and GTR plus unless they propose starting new services HT and GC can also be ruled out. Out of the other options some are more likely than others.

 

[PHILIPE]

If the 185s are to remain based in Manchester, could Arriva Trains Wales take some under their wing and use them on Manchester Piccadilly to Cardiff and Manchester Piccadilly to North Wales Coast services?

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Already mentioned, umpteen posts ago. Don't worry

 

[The Ham]

No, this is a silly idea, Siemens have moved on with their Desiro product and are very unlikely to want to build a small order of specialist carriages that are compatible with a product that is currently 10 years old and a design that's at least 15 years old. Not only that, transforming them into bi-modes is a technical challenge that is simply not going to happen. The 185s will definitely remain as DMUs, they are also very likely to be linked to the current depot in Manchester, which means either remaining with TPE (unlikely), transferring to Northern (more likely), or North Wales (possible ), or EMT (perhaps a slightly better option than Northern) or VECT to help release some Voyagers (unlikely) or XC to help release some Voyagers (unlikely). Moving them anywhere else means a new or modernised facility will be required for a small fleet, new maintenance staff and starting fresh with train crew on a small fleet, all barriers that are reduced by keeping the fleet based in Manchester.

I didn't say it was likely, I said it could be possible, mostly in response to those that said they wouldn't provide enough capacity (admittedly with quite a few technical problems to overcome. Although it could be possible to use the new versions of Desiro's as the new coaches, so long as they could talk to each other). Even if all 21 units were converted to 5 coaches it wouldn't be enough to replace all the 158's/159's (I make it about 25-30 depending on how many services would need to be run as 10 coach trains and how far out).

Personally I think XC could still be a potential option if they could be cleared for 110mph running, as that would allow the Manchester to Bristol (and extensions) to be run with pairs of 185's (with 308 standard class seats that would be an increase in capacity, even over the 224 standard class seats in a 221's and small increase, from 26 to 30, in first class seats, obviously compared with a class 220 it would be quite a step up in capacity, circa 70% more seats!), maybe with enough spares for a few additional extensions (some extensions, especially some of the additional ones, could potentially be run with single units). In doing so it would free up 22x's to provide extra capacity elsewhere and/or to replace HST's. That would also allow the 185's to continue to be based at Manchester for maintenance.

 

[PHILIPE]

Knowing the DaFT, the bean counters may decide they should be put into store as they (and SRA) have done in the past and let the people stand

 

[Clansman]

Just so we don't run around in circles here, just to clarify where we've discussed as far as TOCs are concerned:

Transpennine Express
Northern
South West Trains
East Midlands Trains
Greater Anglia
Great Western Railway
Arriva Trains Wales
Scotrail
Cross Country

Note: I have a feeling I'll regret posting this "attempted" check list of discussed proposals, but hey-ho, there's always the 'edit' tool.

 

[CardiffKid]

Any idea when these units will be free?

 

[northwichcat]

Any idea when these units will be free?

They won't be free, Eversholt will want a fee for leasing them.

The 22 x 185s are planned to be released between 10 November 2019 and 31 March 2020, so probably a May 2020 launch with a new operator by the time clearance and crew training is allowed for.

 

[The Ham]

Just so we don't run around in circles here, just to clarify where we've discussed as far as TOCs are concerned:

Transpennine Express
Northern
South West Trains
East Midlands Trains
Greater Anglia
Great Western Railway
Arriva Trains Wales
Scotrail
Cross Country

Note: I have a feeling I'll regret posting this "attempted" check list of discussed proposals, but hey-ho, there's always the 'edit' tool.

Of the three (Wales, Scotland or Cross Country), as I suggested recently, if they can be cleared for 110mph running then XC could provide them with some additional capacity prior to the 222's becoming available. Potentially on routes (Manchester to Bristol and extensions) where not running at 125mph probably would not have too much of an impact.

Assuming XC has at least one spare HST whilst the others work, then 9 (with one spare) would be enough to do a straight replace the HST's, although with only 60% of the capacity. However, all 21 (with 3 spares) would be enough to release 9 22x's. That would be enough to replace HST's with pairs of 22x's with one unit spare.

If XC were to run some of the outer end of the doubled up services (185's or 22x's) as single units, then there could be capacity to strengthen some other services (especially through the core). That would enable the HST's to be withdrawn from service before the 2020 deadline whilst giving some capacity enhancements earlier than waiting for the 222's which may not be available until circa 2023.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Of the three (Wales, Scotland or Cross Country), as I suggested recently, if they can be cleared for 110mph running then XC could provide them with some additional capacity prior to the 222's becoming available. Potentially on routes (Manchester to Bristol and extensions) where not running at 125mph probably would not have too much of an impact.

Assuming XC has at least one spare HST whilst the others work, then 9 (with one spare) would be enough to do a straight replace the HST's, although with only 60% of the capacity. However, all 21 (with 3 spares) would be enough to release 9 22x's. That would be enough to replace HST's with pairs of 22x's with one unit spare.

If XC were to run some of the outer end of the doubled up services (185's or 22x's) as single units, then there could be capacity to strengthen some other services (especially through the core). That would enable the HST's to be withdrawn from service before the 2020 deadline whilst giving some capacity enhancements earlier than waiting for the 222's which may not be available until circa 2023.

Where's XC's current main maintenance depot?

 

[edwin_m]

Where's XC's current main maintenance depot?

Central Rivers near Burton-on-Trent, but that is run by Bombardier and only deals with classes 220-222.

 

[PHILIPE]

Central Rivers near Burton-on-Trent, but that is run by Bombardier and only deals with classes 220-222.

Not 222s, surely ? Voyagers only, 222s are known as Meridians.

 

[The Ham]

Where's XC's current main maintenance depot?

However, as I understand it, the 185's are currently maintained at Manchester. As such if they ran Manchester services for XC they could carry on being maintained where they are which would reduce costs over relocating them to another depot.

 

[Clansman]

I don't see the greatest of cases for XC to have 185s replace the Voyagers or HSTs (even the 170s) apart from maintenance wise. Just come to my mind, if the Wales & Borders franchise was stripped of it's Manchester to Wales service then maybe the 185s could fill that missing gap under XC, in turn replacing the 170s to be used on Stansted Airport services and the majority of Nottingham to Cardiff services. Works out maintenance wise and fits in with other proposals to cut Manchester from Wales & Borders.

Apart from that, I can't really see how 185s at XC would work otherwise - in a stock replacement situation anyway.

 

[edwin_m]

Not 222s, surely ? Voyagers only, 222s are known as Meridians.

I believe some 222 maintenance also takes place there.

 

[The Ham]

I don't see the greatest of cases for XC to have 185s replace the Voyagers or HSTs (even the 170s) apart from maintenance wise. Just come to my mind, if the Wales & Borders franchise was stripped of it's Manchester to Wales service then maybe the 185s could fill that missing gap under XC, in turn replacing the 170s to be used on Stansted Airport services and the majority of Nottingham to Cardiff services. Works out maintenance wise and fits in with other proposals to cut Manchester from Wales & Borders.

Apart from that, I can't really see how 185s at XC would work otherwise - not in a stock replacement situation anyway.

A pair of 185's, although would require more staff, would have 338 seats (308 standard and 30 first class) compared with 200 (174 standard and 26 first class) in the 220's and 250 (174 standard and 26 first class) in the 221's.

By my maths, there's about 8 diagrams which currently run Manchester to Bristol with a few extensions to Exeter, Cardiff and Paignton. To run that you would need 16 of the 21 units, with 2 of the remaining 5 needed as spare units. That leaves you with 3 units, which would be enough to more (about 2 a day with 2x185's or 4 a day as a single 185) services to Paignton.

In doing so that provides extra capacity between Paignton and Bristol in the form of new services and extra capacity between Bristol and Manchester through more seats.

That leaves 8 x 22x's which you can either use as a direct replacement for the HST's (bearing in mind that at least 1 would likely be spare anyway) by running them as pairs.

Alternatively, the released 22x's could be used to strengthen services. For instance, if you release 220's you could then use them to run as a second unit on all the services between Reading and York or all of the services between Derby/Banbury and Derby/Cheltenham.

In reality, it is likely that it would be combination of the two. Of course there could be a real step change in capacity if a few of the ICWC 221's were also to become available as well.

 

[Clansman]

A pair of 185's, although would require more staff, would have 338 seats (308 standard and 30 first class) compared with 200 (174 standard and 26 first class) in the 220's and 250 (174 standard and 26 first class) in the 221's.

By my maths, there's about 8 diagrams which currently run Manchester to Bristol with a few extensions to Exeter, Cardiff and Paignton. To run that you would need 16 of the 21 units, with 2 of the remaining 5 needed as spare units. That leaves you with 3 units, which would be enough to more (about 2 a day with 2x185's or 4 a day as a single 185) services to Paignton.

In doing so that provides extra capacity between Paignton and Bristol in the form of new services and extra capacity between Bristol and Manchester through more seats.

That leaves 8 x 22x's which you can either use as a direct replacement for the HST's (bearing in mind that at least 1 would likely be spare anyway) by running them as pairs.

Alternatively, the released 22x's could be used to strengthen services. For instance, if you release 220's you could then use them to run as a second unit on all the services between Reading and York or all of the services between Derby/Banbury and Derby/Cheltenham.

In reality, it is likely that it would be combination of the two. Of course there could be a real step change in capacity if a few of the ICWC 221's were also to become available as well.

Ah I see the logic now. I'm trying hard not to balance logic over personal wishes lol. As much as I dislike the Voyagers I do find them more comfortable than the 185s, and I prefer the 'express layout' as well. I just can't imagine a pair of 185s in XC livery working 4hour+ journeys (albeit practically 2 point to point journeys running conjoining from a commuter point of view), and the HSTs being replaced by the displaced Voyagers!

Also, with the route between Manchester and Birmingham New Street peaking at 125mph, how does this work journey time wise? Do Voyagers normally operate at the speed limit or 110mph due to the TASS being disabled on XC units? The 185s aren't capable of more than 100mph ( a case re-gearing for 110 maybe?) so would how would Speed-Acceleration balance up along the route in a case of Voyager vs 185?

Knowing how TOCs go about business now a days I wouldn't be surprised if the XC argument for 185s was killed stone dead through the "although would require more staff" statement - probably best to not provoke anyone on this matter *Cough* - DOO - *Cough*

 

[Whistler40145]

I can see that 185s aren't at all suitable for XC services, they're no substitute for 170s, 220s & 221s.

If Liverpool to Norwich wasn't under EMT and was with XC then both Liverpool to Norwich and Birmingham to Stansted Airport could go over to 185s, thus making 170s available for extra services or provide double units on Nottingham to Cardiff services.

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[The Ham]

Ah I see the logic now. I'm trying hard not to balance logic over personal wishes lol. As much as I dislike the Voyagers I do find them more comfortable than the 185s, and I prefer the 'express layout' as well. I just can't imagine a pair of 185s in XC livery working 4hour+ journeys (albeit practically 2 point to point journeys running conjoining from a commuter point of view), and the HSTs being replaced by the displaced Voyagers!

Also, with the route between Manchester and Birmingham New Street peaking at 125mph, how does this work journey time wise? Do Voyagers normally operate at the speed limit or 110mph due to the TASS being disabled on XC units? The 185s aren't capable of more than 100mph ( a case re-gearing for 110 maybe?) so would how would Speed-Acceleration balance up along the route in a case of Voyager vs 185?

Knowing how TOCs go about business now a days I wouldn't be surprised if the XC argument for 185s was killed stone dead through the "although would require more staff" statement - probably best to not provoke anyone on this matter *Cough* - DOO - *Cough*

I had said further up in the thread that it would require the changing of the 185's to be able to run at 110mph.

Being pedantic, most of the services would still only run between Manchester and Bristol which is 3 hours. Although the services to Paignton would be 6 hours.

 

[D365]

If Liverpool to Norwich wasn't under EMT and was with XC then both Liverpool to Norwich and Birmingham to Stansted Airport could go over to 185s, thus making 170s available for extra services or provide double units on Nottingham to Cardiff services.

How many times does it have to be said that the 185s are too heavy and would lose time east of Peterborough!