"Do not go on the track" : is this all going too far.......

[EM2]

The railway is potentially dangerous as are a whole host of other things!

And they all have ways that that can be mitigated.

 

[6Gman]

I believe rules are needed, but some common sense needs to come into play as well.

I'll give you some examples -

Its not safe to jump down on the track to get your phone where the average speed of a train is 10mph, but down the line where there is a foot crossing its ok to cross the lines where the trains are doing 100+ mph. (yes there are plenty there are two in Offord on the ECML, one in Souldrop on the MML).

Er, the foot crossing is designed for people to cross. On foot.

The platform is not designed for random members of the public who have (it appears) handed their phones to their three year olds to jump down onto the p.way - hazardous in itself - and - more challenging - to clamber back up.

Would I happily use a foot crossing? Yes.

Would I happily jump down onto the track from a platform? No.

 

[sheff1]

At some stations there is no danger in going onto the track to retrieve an item. Doncaster is not one of them.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Please tell me the rail staff who disagree?

Charles Horton. Yes I know he's management, but he's technically employed by GTR.

 

[156443]

The gf was at Heworth Railway Station when waiting for a train a while ago to go to Hexham and saw some youths come out of the adjacent metro station and jump off the platform onto the tracks and walked across them to the platform on the other side. Absolutely foolish idiots with no common sense at all and too lazy to walk around the legal way which is up the steps and across the bridge and back down the steps on the other side.


Sent from my iPad Pro using Tapatalk

 

[cjmillsnun]

Health & Safety "went mad" because thousands of people used to be killed in the workplace every year - that figure is down to hundreds.

and hopefully as we improve things, that number will drop to tens and then into single digits.

No one who is not in the forces should be killed doing their jobs (and if we're not at war, they should not be losing their lives at work either)

Whilst we cannot eliminate risk, taking sensible steps like not allowing people to trespass on a live railway line isn't health and safety gone mad. It's pure common sense.

 

[highdyke]

Charles Horton. Yes I know he's management, but he's technically employed by GTR.

And RSSB who sets all the rules people work to, I digress.

Let's be clear, the opening poster was misguided with comments about retrieving phones, there is, however, valid points to be made about H&S.

Which is why I wish people would play with ideas more rather than shout things down.

H&S has to always be viewing in an overall context. The railway is at times too risk adverse and is guilty on gold plating. This is one reason NR has a debt similar to whole countries. There is most definitely a debate to be had there. There is no point in having a railway so expensive, it simply forces people onto less safe modes of transport.

Sometimes H&S is counter-intuitive, there has been trials where all road signs and traffic lights have been removed and it's actually improved safety and flow.

Innovations like replacing massive signal gantries with light weight signals are surely to be welcomed?

 

[Philip Phlopp]

And RSSB who sets all the rules people work to, I digress.

Let's be clear, the opening poster was misguided with comments about retrieving phones, there is, however, valid points to be made about H&S.

Which is why I wish people would play with ideas more rather than shout things down.

H&S has to always be viewing in an overall context. The railway is at times too risk adverse and is guilty on gold plating. This is one reason NR has a debt similar to whole countries. There is most definitely a debate to be had there. There is no point in having a railway so expensive, it simply forces people onto less safe modes of transport.

Sometimes H&S is sometimes counter-intuitive, there has been trials where all road signs and traffic lights have been removed and it's actually improved safety and flow.

Innovations like replacing massive signal gantries with light weight signals are surely to be welcomed?

RSSB is sometimes right, it's sometimes wrong.

We have their light weight signals going in whilst we've got contractors who can't get a simple safety inspection of an existing signal post correct.

 

[ComUtoR]

We had an incident at my local station. A guy jumped in front of a train going about 3mph (it was about to stop)

IIRC he took about 2 weeks to die

 

[notlob.divad]

To the Original Poster,

No, just No, everything about your question, No.

Lets say you had jumped down to retrieve you phone. Lets just say you had managed to get back on the platform safely before the train came in. Lets just say that you hadn't been seen doing so, and you had safely carried on the rest of your life in the knowledge that you had weighed up the risks that day and had retrieved your phone. THERE IS A 3 YEAR OLD CHILD STANDING RIGHT NEXT TO YOU. Not least, IT IS YOUR 3 YEAR OLD CHILD. (Yes I do think the capitals are nessesary)

How about:
Instead of it being Platform 8 at Doncaster, "where all trains stop and none ever seem to go at more than about 10mph", it was at one of the many platforms across the country where express trains fly through at almost full speed. Ever seen the Mail Train fly through the platform at Wigan, or the none stop Manchester to Liverpool fly through the platform at Huyton?
Instead of it being Platform 8 at Doncaster, where "there is room on the other side of the line to walk if one has to" it was one of the many platforms in the country where the track on the other side is so close that when an express passes through, all of the windows of a stationary train next to it slam shut.

But even after all that its ok 'only an imbecilic idiot would actually jump down onto the tracks as a train approached'....
Or a 3 year old boy who instead of retrieving a £200 iPhone was trying to retrieve a bit of rubbish that had caught his attention, who once saw Daddy do it so it must be ok. But little 3 year old boy is not as big as daddy and cannot lift himself back on to the platform. Oh and little boy didn't go travelling with Daddy today, who may have been strong enough to lift Justin Jnr back onto the platform, he went out with Mummy, or Grandmummy who isn't. Oh and Justin Jnr didn't realise Daddy had been observing how the trains operate and had checked for one first.

As for comparrison with pedestian level crossings where you walk straight across from one side to the other, usually on a special surface to reduce the risk of tripping or slipping.
Or comparrisons with road running trams in Sheffield where plafrom height is 6 inches or so (Yes I have used them), the comparrisons are totally irrelevent. Yes I have seen on numerous occasions people jump down from the platform run across a track and jump up on the otherside, all to avoid the 30 steps up and down to use the provided footbridge. I save a few choice phrases to mutter under my breath, for people who do that, none of them are nice and none of them are suitable for publishing here. The fact that the thought even crossed your mind to demonstrate that level of stupidity in front of any impressionable youngster is beyond contempt, never mind the fact that as I pointed out at the top, this is your child we are talking about. Yours. I don't have any children, but I will tell you what, if I found out my partner had done that in front of my child, it would be seriously considering if they where a fit and proper person to be sharing custody of my child. But frankly if I had seen you do that in front of your 3 year old child, it wouldn't be the BTP I would be calling, it would be the NSPCC. You may think that is a bit strong, but I don't, and I don't particularly care what you or anyone else on this forum thinks of me for saying it.

 

[Harbornite]

That's a good post, some good points there.

 

[spongsdad]

At some stations there is no danger in going onto the track to retrieve an item. Doncaster is not one of them.

And that is probably the best and most sensible comment in the whole of this thread.

 

[Clip]

Because.............

If you have to ask then I do worry.

However, those who have a qualification or those who have been highly trained in the safe workings of many industries have a far better and higher understanding of risk and mitigating them.

Which is why we have something so basic as the Health and Safety at work act and why we have reduced deaths across all industries since the 70s, which is appears the OP bases all his 'elf and saftey go mad crusade on.

 

[ComUtoR]

And that is probably the best and most sensible comment in the whole of this thread.

Yeah, he's right. I can go on to the tracks at London Victoria as its totally safe. Trains come in at low speed and are very predictable. The track is clean and free of debris due to having local cleaners and as there are lots of staff everywhere so they can stop a train in an emergency. It's totally safe.

 

[Antman]

Yeah, he's right. I can go on to the tracks at London Victoria as its totally safe. Trains come in at low speed and are very predictable. The track is clean and free of debris due to having local cleaners and as there are lots of staff everywhere so they can stop a train in an emergency. It's totally safe.

Except nobody actually mentioned London Victoria :roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

At some stations there is no danger in going onto the track to retrieve an item. Doncaster is not one of them.

Absolutely, I can't comment on Doncaster as I've not been there for years other than passing through.

 

[spongsdad]

Yeah, he's right. I can go on to the tracks at London Victoria as its totally safe. Trains come in at low speed and are very predictable. The track is clean and free of debris due to having local cleaners and as there are lots of staff everywhere so they can stop a train in an emergency. It's totally safe.

Which part of sheff1's statement is FACTUALLY erroneous?

 

[ComUtoR]

Except nobody actually mentioned London Victoria :roll:

Errrrrrrr. Did you read the post I was referring to ? Wait..:roll: ahh I feel better with a smiley.

Do you really believe that his post was the most sensible comment ? What makes Doncaster unsafe but London Victoria Safe ? Who makes the decision to say that getting down on the track is safe on a station ? Seriously, are we to believe that personal opinion determines if station A is safer than station B ?

DO NOT GO ON THE TRACK.

The second someone takes the decision to go on to the tack it is their life to lose. Perception that its safe at one station and not others is just as dangerous and just as stupid. Is it ok to highlight stupid ? can I repeat for those who like smileys.

DO NOT GO ON THE TRACK :roll::x :roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Which part of sheff1's statement is FACTUALLY erroneous?

Do you really believe that telling people some stations are "safe" to trespass on the track is either factually correct or remotely intelligent ?

Everything I said is 100% true. Please tell me that going on to the track at London Victoria is safe.

 

[spongsdad]

Errrrrrrr. Did you read the post I was referring to ? Wait..:roll: ahh I feel better with a smiley.

Do you really believe that his post was the most sensible comment ? What makes Doncaster unsafe but London Victoria Safe ? Who makes the decision to say that getting down on the track is safe on a station ? Seriously, are we to believe that personal opinion determines if station A is safer than station B ?

DO NOT GO ON THE TRACK.

The second someone takes the decision to go on to the tack it is their life to lose. Perception that its safe at one station and not others is just as dangerous and just as stupid. Is it ok to highlight stupid ? can I repeat for those who like smileys.

DO NOT GO ON THE TRACK :roll::x :roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Do you really believe that telling people some stations are "safe" to trespass on the track is either factually correct or remotely intelligent ?

Everything I said is 100% true. Please tell me that going on to the track at London Victoria is safe.

Why would I want to tell you that going onto the track at London Victoria is safe; it would be barmy to claim that. But that isn't what Sheff1 said is it? On the other hand if I dropped my smartphone onto the track at Achnasheen on a Sunday afternoon in mid winter, I might just be tempted to get onto the track to retrieve it and feel that the risk was worth it. It might be easy to assume that everyone is devoid of common sense but in fact most people possess a great deal of it and are well aware when a risk is too high to take. For those who have no common sense, even the law will struggle to make them conform. Notwithstanding all that, I accept that the railways must make their rules based on available evidence but don't be misled into the idea that because they ARE the rules, they must be the best course of action whatever the circumstances.

 

[Antman]

Errrrrrrr. Did you read the post I was referring to ? Wait..:roll: ahh I feel better with a smiley.

Do you really believe that his post was the most sensible comment ? What makes Doncaster unsafe but London Victoria Safe ? Who makes the decision to say that getting down on the track is safe on a station ? Seriously, are we to believe that personal opinion determines if station A is safer than station B ?

DO NOT GO ON THE TRACK.

The second someone takes the decision to go on to the tack it is their life to lose. Perception that its safe at one station and not others is just as dangerous and just as stupid. Is it ok to highlight stupid ? can I repeat for those who like smileys.

DO NOT GO ON THE TRACK :roll::x :roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Do you really believe that telling people some stations are "safe" to trespass on the track is either factually correct or remotely intelligent ?

Everything I said is 100% true. Please tell me that going on to the track at London Victoria is safe.

I'm still baffled as to why you've mentioned London Victoria, a typical rant but no explanation!

 

[EM2]

Which part of sheff1's statement is FACTUALLY erroneous?

All of it.
EDIT - actually the bit about Doncaster is accurate.

 

[AlterEgo]

Desperate thread. Maddening.

 

[ComUtoR]

I'm still baffled as to why you've mentioned London Victoria, a typical rant but no explanation!

Because somebody mentioned that "some" stations are safe

At some stations there is no danger in going onto the track to retrieve an item

Which effectively tells people that its safe to trespass. I can flat out justify trespass at London Victoria for the reasons I highlighted. Would you trespass at London Vic ?

 

[Darbs]

Just please stay off the track. Simple as that! It's still a dangerous place even for trained staff. That's why we try and separate people and trains. As a Pway man and now as a signaller I'm all too aware of the hazards. Be safe always.

 

[Mintona]

I've not been through the entire thread, coz y'know, utter wibble, but has anybody pointed out that the linespeed through Doncaster platform 8 is most definitely not "10mph"?

 

[ComUtoR]

Why would I want to tell you that going onto the track at London Victoria is safe; it would be barmy to claim that. But that isn't what Sheff1 said is it?

But he said "some stations" and you agreed. Who decides ? I can tell you that London Victoria is safer than Elmers End to trespass. Telling people that its safe to trespass is dumb under any circumstance. Agreeing with that person is insane.

How is one station safer than another ? If that is the case then any argument you wish to put across to justify that can be used to justify trespassing at a very busy London terminal. I could teach you how to do it safely, I can tell you in precise details how you can trespass to retrieve a phone at ANY station in a safe manner.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I accept that the railways must make their rules based on available evidence but don't be misled into the idea that because they ARE the rules, they must be the best course of action whatever the circumstances.

We make the rules to protect everyone. Too many people have that believe that they are "safe" Too many people believe the rhetoric posted on forums that H&S rules are pointless bollo..

Don't be misled that rules are there to be broken and that you know better than the trained professionals who put those rules in place to protect the very people who are prepared to take the risk.

Please, I implore everyone. DON'T GO ON THE TRACK.

 

[Jamesb1974]

Fourteen pages in and we're still having to hammer home the point to STAY OFF THE TRACK.


If it was 'safe' for every Tom, Dick and Harry to wander about, jump down onto and generally use the network as somewhere where risk can be mitigated by simply 'using common sense', then there would no need for the PTS scheme, hi-viz clothing or training in general.

Ask yourself this. If you were travelling along the M6 and your mobile phone was ejected from the car by the forces of child, would you consider it worth the risk to retrieve it from the carriageway?

(Opens potential can of worms by know it alls who claim that removing debris from the motorway is perfectly fine as long as you use 'common sense').

 

[TheEdge]

See, I'm probably not going to add much that hasn't been already said but I think Donald Rumsfeld can.

Known knows and unknown unknowns. I hold full a/c PTS so I know the risks that face me if I am on the track. I don't particularly like being down on the track because I know the risks around me and know how very easy it would be to be killed. The general public do not, its the unknown unknowns. You don't know how very very easy it is to end up dead on the track.

 

[Johncleesefan]

I cant believe there is actually a debate here. Its pretty obvious that its a dumb thing to do isn't it.
Its scary to think that the few on here saying they would jump down and grab it, how many of the same like minded people are out there stood at stations whilst I'm whizzing though at 90.
I thought the human race was better than this.....

common sense. Apply a bit please

 

[ComUtoR]

stuff™

You have recently gone from outsider to insider and are now up there with the elite a Driver. What was it like when your first train passed by and you were down at rail level and the great beast went past ?

I had someone recently tell me how scary it was, and he was only at sole bar level.

 

[Atishyou]

Just an FYI, 'most' trains through Platform 8 might be going 10mph 'at the most', but that's not the linespeed there!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I've not been through the entire thread, coz y'know, utter wibble, but has anybody pointed out that the linespeed through Doncaster platform 8 is most definitely not "10mph"?

I've just done so now, didn't see your post. It's 25mph through Plt 8!