Should We Leave the EU?

[Antman]

Hmmm and where did the rights for five weeks holiday etc come from? (I'll give you a hint, before the EU Working Time Directive, the UK did not have a minimum holiday entitlement and the conservative government actually tried to stop the directive being passed).

No it didn't, his contract was drawn up years ago. Oh these EU working time directives sound all very good, but how many of them apply when you're on a zero hours contract?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Because many of these people live in areas of the country that receive a very large amount of funding from EU. And so by being part of the EU, these areas get this funding, hence increasing the quality of life for the working class people who live there. Fairly simple really.

Of course, the leave campaign having promised to match EU funding until 2020. But based on the fact they have already made a large number of spending promises I really cannot see that happening. And even if it does, what happens after 2020?

And where do you think the EU get that money from? I don't think it grows on trees in Brussels!

 

[Steveman]

Good point. However, as has already been pointed out, such arguments fall on deaf ears. I've just been canvassing in a nice middle class area and it was 70% Remain. On the streets and on the doorstep in less affluent areas the Leavers are basing their decision on one thing and one thing only..... Immigration.

In an earlier post you said most people wanting to leave are racists, you don't have to keep repeating it as we know what you think.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The other matter is that this thinking is quite understandable:
The Bremainers need to blast the anti immigration stance of the Brexiters by telling them that it is the five years or more of austerity that have lead people to the conclusion that immigration is a big problem. Cameron and Osborne, if they do succeed in getting Britain out of Europe, can thank austerity. They will have been hoisted by their own petard.

Slightly related, it has crossed my mind that Cameron and Osborne and others in the Conservative party have for years been able to push out half-truths and misleading statements about Labour (and sometimes, the LibDems), confident that much of the media will lap it up and present it as fact without questioning it. Now, all of a sudden, Cameron and Osborne and those in the Remain Camp in the Conservatives are discovering what it's like to have much of the media not only lined up against you, but quite prepared to push out the most misleading of stories in order to get people to be against you. I wonder how they are feeling about it...

 

[Muttley]

So you're completely gutting everything you stand for?

Ah, I see another of the delusions you're suffering from has reached the surface.

To be clear, I'm not standing. The negotiations will be undertaken by the government, elected officials and I'd guess civil servants offering advice. To the best of my knowledge, nobody on RUKforum is standing. Therefore asking what anyone on here who has indicated they will be voting Leave, what their personal opinion of any starting/finishing points may be, while it may be of academic interest to you, serves absolutely no value to the upcoming vote.

 

[Antman]

Good point. However, as has already been pointed out, such arguments fall on deaf ears. I've just been canvassing in a nice middle class area and it was 70% Remain. On the streets and on the doorstep in less affluent areas the Leavers are basing their decision on one thing and one thing only..... Immigration.

Well immigration is the number one issue for many people and having been lied to once by Dishonest Dave they're hardly likely to fall for it again are they?

 

[Howardh]

Good point. However, as has already been pointed out, such arguments fall on deaf ears. I've just been canvassing in a nice middle class area and it was 70% Remain. On the streets and on the doorstep in less affluent areas the Leavers are basing their decision on one thing and one thing only..... Immigration.

...and they're gonna be in for a heck of a shock when immigration and the overall population increases over the next few years?
How?
There will be those (EU) coming anyway.
+ Those that think they won't qualify, so they will come ahead of B-day where they might have waited, and not come
+ Those ex-pats returning due to the uncertainty
+ Those who were thinking of leaving and retiring/working in/returning to they EU who now stay.
By the time B-day approaches, we could have two, three, four times as many immigrants as we would have had. Way to go, Brexit.
And then after B-day, we have all those already here, and add to that those that can legitimately come AND those getting Ryanair flights to Dublin and laughing their way across the Irish border into the UK.

So it's clear, a Brexit vote is for increased immigration and population on our already strained services.

 

[Antman]

...and they're gonna be in for a heck of a shock when immigration and the overall population increases over the next few years?
How?
There will be those (EU) coming anyway.
+ Those that think they won't qualify, so they will come ahead of B-day where they might have waited, and not come
+ Those ex-pats returning due to the uncertainty
+ Those who were thinking of leaving and retiring/working in/returning to they EU who now stay.
By the time B-day approaches, we could have two, three, four times as many immigrants as we would have had. Way to go, Brexit.
And then after B-day, we have all those already here, and add to that those that can legitimately come AND those getting Ryanair flights to Dublin and laughing their way across the Irish border into the UK.

So it's clear, a Brexit vote is for increased immigration and population on our already strained services.

Really?:roll:

 

[Johnuk123]

So it's clear, a Brexit vote is for increased immigration and population on our already strained services.

So it's clear is it ?

You do know after an OUT vote the Govt. make-up will be very anti-EU after the election which we'll have by October.
It has already been said by several politicians that we can invoke any immigration policy we wish during the hand-over period.
The EU will have no way to stop us, they can't exactly fine us can they ?

 

[backontrack]

George Monbiot said it right. This is all you need to know.

The European Union is the worst choice – apart from the alternative
What it’s about is not what it’s about. The referendum is a proxy question. Underlying it is the fundamental political question, one that is seldom asked precisely because it cuts to the heart: how do we best keep money out of politics?

Without sufficient public scrutiny, all political systems degenerate into the service of wealth. All end up controlled by the few with the cash, not the many with the votes. The primary democratic task is to break the nexus of money and power. So the question we face next week is this: “In which political unit can money best be resisted?” We are not embarrassed by choice. This is a contest of plutocracies.

The European Union is a festering cesspool of undue influence and opaque lobbying. Prompted at first by the tobacco industry, the European commission is slowly dismantling, through what it calls its “better regulation agenda”, many of the hard-won laws that protect our health, working conditions and wildlife. Once they are torn down, corporate power will be locked in place through the TTIP – the transatlantic trade and investment partnership – it is negotiating with the United States.

TTIP has two main strands. One is regulatory cooperation, which means standardising the laws on either side of the Atlantic – almost certainly downwards. The other is investor-state dispute settlement: allowing companies to sue governments through an offshore tribunal if a law threatens their profits. Democracy means being able to change those aspects of governance we do not like. TTIP, if it goes ahead, will ensure that this is not an option.

And if TTIP fails? Well, there are other means. The Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement between Europe and Canada, imposing much the same package, quietly transacted, now remains only to be ratified. The proposed Trade in Services Agreement – between North America, the European Union and 19 other nations – is a turbocharged version that has been negotiated behind closed doors for the past three years.

The trade secrets directive, approved by the Council of the European Union last month, threatens to treat as commercial property any information that a corporation hopes to keep out of the public domain. Whistleblowers and campaigners trying to expose corporate malfeasance – tax evasion, falsifying emissions tests, polluting rivers – could be subject, depending on how it is interpreted by the courts, to massive fines and compensation claims. If the EU sometimes looks like a matchmaker for wealth and power, that’s because it is.

By comparison with the British system, however, this noxious sewer is a crystal spring. Every stream of corporate effluent with which the EU poisons political life has a more malodorous counterpart in the UK. The new Deregulation Act, a meta-law of astonishing scope, scarcely known and scarcely debated, insists that all regulators must now “have regard to the desirability of promoting economic growth”. Rare wildlife, wheelchair ramps, speed limits, children’s lungs: all must establish their contribution to GDP. What else, after all, are they for?

Britain has become a power base for a legalised financial mafia that strips the assets of healthy companies, turns the nation’s housing into a roulette table, launders money for drug cartels and terrorists, then stashes its gains beyond the reach of police and tax inspectors. Through privatisation, outsourcing and the private finance initiative, the public sector has been repurposed as a get-rich-quick scheme for friends in the City, licensed to erect tollbooths in front of essential services. The media, largely owned by members of the same class, directs our attention elsewhere, blaming immigrants for the ills it has inflicted.

It was British lobbying that sank Europe’s soil framework directive and the financial transactions tax. Without a mandate from either parliament or people, the British trade minister wrote secretly to the European commission insisting that investor-state dispute settlement should remain in the TTIP. Wherever barriers to the power of money are being kicked over, there you will find David Cameron’s bootprint.

Since the first states were established, they have sought power by making alliances. The splendid autonomy we are told a Britain out of Europe would enjoy is an illusion: we would swap one transnational system for another. The demand to leave Europe in the name of independence has long been accompanied by a desire to surrender our sovereignty to the United States. If judged by their own standards, the Brexit campaigners who foresee a stronger alliance with the US are traitors, ceding the national interest to a foreign hegemon.

Sixteen years ago, the Conservative party published a draft manifesto in which it proposed that we should join the North American Free Trade Agreement (Nafta). This remains a plausible outcome of leaving the EU: it is hard to imagine the business class permitting the UK to stand outside a formal trading bloc. What this means is swapping a treaty over which we have had some influence for one in which we have had none.

How do we know that TTIP would tear down public protections? Because the same clauses in Nafta have already started doing so across Canada, the US and Mexico. A closer alliance with the US means surrendering to a system that has been signed, sealed and delivered to the power of money. A Congress bound and gagged with dollars; a police and military machine pressed into the service of plutocracy; a media that scarcely bothers to disguise its own corruption. The political power of money there is naked, unashamed – even proud.

I suspect that Donald Trump, or at least Trumpery of some kind, represents the future of US politics, especially if the Democrats fail to connect with people who are catastrophically alienated from the system. Exciting as it will be to have a woman in the White House, Hillary Clinton is embedded in corporate power and corporate dollars.

We do not release ourselves from the power of money by leaving the EU. We just exchange one version for another: another that is even worse. This is not an inspiring position from which to vote remain. But it is a coherent one.

• A fully referenced version of this article can be found at www.monbiot.com

 

[Howardh]

Really?:roll:

Yup. More than really.

 

[EM2]

Really?:roll:

While I'm not as certain as Howardh, I just wonder how Brexit supporters will feel if, in ten years time or so, they think things are little different ?

 

[Howardh]

So it's clear is it ?

You do know after an OUT vote the Govt. make-up will be very anti-EU after the election which we'll have by October.
It has already been said by several politicians that we can invoke any immigration policy we wish during the hand-over period.
The EU will have no way to stop us, they can't exactly fine us can they ?

I agree that an early General Election is likely. That will also bring in a very mixed Parliament, with UKIP splitting both the Labour and Tory votes. But under FPTP I doubt that would end up with many UKIP MP's, so the chances are a minority or majority Government of Labour/SNP/Liberal + a few others, the vast majority being Pro-EU MP's.

So they won't be in a hurry to close any borders or invoke any immigration policy, and will probably try to put it off as long as possible, with the EU's full backing.

So if we DO leave, it could well be a good 5 years before the first EU migrant is challenged...if at all. Meanwhile, some might not come due to not being allowed welfare etc; which is Cameron's attainments.

I can't see a pro-exit Parliament for the forseeable future.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

While I'm not as certain as Howardh, I just wonder how Brexit supporters will feel if, in ten years time or so, they think things are little different ?

That's the key, once out, it will be mighty expensive (and a lot of humble pie) to get back in.

Obvs I feel Brexit would fail, but like Scotland COULD work well as an independent nation, Brexit could work well out of the EU.

But the word's COULD. We don't know. The EU is a bloated, over-large undemocratic organisation that needs a good kicking. Maybe a big country leaving could precipitate more? But why should we be the first, the fall-guys? If, say, Holland had left, and were doing rather well, I'd probably be for Brexit.

But we don't know, it would be an experiment. And all the stuff about controlling eu immigration is, frankly, both ludicrous and impossible whilst there's a wide open Irish border.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Ah, I see another of the delusions you're suffering from has reached the surface.

To be clear, I'm not standing. The negotiations will be undertaken by the government, elected officials and I'd guess civil servants offering advice. To the best of my knowledge, nobody on RUKforum is standing. Therefore asking what anyone on here who has indicated they will be voting Leave, what their personal opinion of any starting/finishing points may be, while it may be of academic interest to you, serves absolutely no value to the upcoming vote.

You keep calling me deluded or stupid, and then telling me what you'd wish I'd said. It's obvious you have absolutely nothing to contribute to this debate.

What is your answer to the Northern Ireland issue I raised?

 

[LateThanNever]

George Monbiot said it right. This is all you need to know.

I so agree. May I just add that it is not the Yanks against the EU.
It's the Corporates against us, the people, whether Yanks or Europeans.

 

[Harbornite]

You keep calling me deluded or stupid, and then telling me what you'd wish I'd said. It's obvious you have absolutely nothing to contribute to this debate.

What is your answer to the Northern Ireland issue I raised?

I don't think there is one.

 

[Gutfright]

I don't think there is one.

I agree with you. I don't think there is a Northern Ireland issue either.

The idea that hundreds of thousands of EU citizens will flood into Ireland, cross over into NI and then swim over (name one airline or ferry company which doesn't require identification to travel between Ireland/ NI and Britain) into mainland Britain knowing that they wouldn't be entitled to benefits, council housing etc and knowing that they would only be able to work on low-paid cash-in-hand jobs is absolutely ridiculous. I'm glad that at least one person on the remain side has the integrity to admit this. Thank you.

 

[Harbornite]

I agree with you. I don't think there is a Northern Ireland issue either.

The idea that hundreds of thousands of EU citizens will flood into Ireland, cross over into NI and then swim over (name one airline or ferry company which doesn't require identification to travel between Ireland/ NI and Britain) into mainland Britain knowing that they wouldn't be entitled to benefits, council housing etc and knowing that they would only be able to work on low-paid cash-in-hand jobs is absolutely ridiculous. I'm glad that at least one person on the remain side has the integrity to admit this. Thank you.

Nice try. So if there's no issue, then why bother leaving...?

 

[Gutfright]

Nice try. So if there's no issue, then why bother leaving...?

I think you may have missed a couple of important words out. I'm sure it was a genuine mistake on your part.

 

[Harbornite]

I think you may have missed a couple of important words out. I'm sure it was a genuine mistake on your part.

There's no mistake on my part, you're the one who is mistaken. Regarding my previous post, I was saying that there wasn't an answer, not that wasn't an issue.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Over time the FTSE would not only recover, but would most likely be in a better position post-Brexit than it would be otherwise.

And you know this because.....

How far would Sterling fall and how high would interest rates rise to support Sterling? How many people would lose their homes as a result of this?

 

[Gutfright]

And you know this because.....

How far would Sterling fall and how high would interest rates rise to support Sterling? How many people would lose their homes as a result of this?

I never claimed to have a crystal ball. If I could accurately predict exactly what Sterling and interest rates will do in the future I'd probably be snorting coke off a hooker's tits on a sunny beach somewhere by now.

What I will say is that the recent fall in the FTSE was caused by investor uncertainty over whether or not we'll Brexit. The attempts by a few voices on this thread to insinuate that it's a sign that the sky will fall if we vote leave is just more mendacious fear-mongering from the remain camp.

 

[Howardh]

I agree with you. I don't think there is a Northern Ireland issue either.

The idea that hundreds of thousands of EU citizens will flood into Ireland, cross over into NI and then swim over (name one airline or ferry company which doesn't require identification to travel between Ireland/ NI and Britain) into mainland Britain knowing that they wouldn't be entitled to benefits, council housing etc and knowing that they would only be able to work on low-paid cash-in-hand jobs is absolutely ridiculous. I'm glad that at least one person on the remain side has the integrity to admit this. Thank you.

Let's try this one;
Hundreds of thousands of Syrian refugees have given all their savings/belongings etc to risk their lives to cross the Mediterranean - often in the middle of winter - in the vain hope of a better, or at least safer, life overseas.

A Bulgarian on £2.50/hr can save a little and buy a £29.99 euro flight to Dublin where he can use his EU passport to enter Ireland, bus through the UK border with no interference whatsoever, and find illegal work for double that (£5/hr) in a car-wash run by one of his mates, depriving one of ours a legit min-wage job. Meanwhile his mate is a bit handy with a photocopier and photoshop and rigs up a false phone statement linked to a UK address so they can catch the ferry to Scotland.

So no-one in their right mind would do the latter, even though it's a piece of cake???

Get real.

Oh, you want photo ID checks between Scotland and Northern Ireland to prevent this (although it's dumping the illegal immigration problem on Norn)? For families or workets/tourists between the two, that makes photo ID compulsory. Brexit wants to introduce compulsory ID cards for people wishing to travel across their own country. Got it now, ID cards through the back door. That's something if the EU proposed you'd be shouting down from the rooftops.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I never claimed to have a crystal ball. If I could accurately predict exactly what Sterling and interest rates will do in the future I'd probably be snorting coke off a hooker's tits on a sunny beach somewhere by now.

Well that's certainly an interesting ambition to have and rather say's a lot about your sex life, not to mention your attitude towards class A drug abuse.

You claim not to have a crystal ball (and what a startling revelation that is) and yet claim that the markets will be better off following a Brexit. How do you know this?

What I will say is that the recent fall in the FTSE was caused by investor uncertainty over whether or not we'll Brexit. The attempts by a few voices on this thread to insinuate that it's a sign that the sky will fall if we vote leave is just more mendacious fear-mongering from the remain camp.

In that case why do you think the markets have fallen further in recent days following on from poll's that suggest that we are heading for a Brexit? You and I know both know that we wouldn't seen those sharp falls if the poll's were suggesting that we were likely to see a vote to remain in the EU. And why do you think that both the IMF and the Bank Of England (both of course independent of the Government) are both suggesting that a Brexit would be bad for the UK economy?

 

[Gutfright]

A Bulgarian on £2.50/hr can save a little and buy a £29.99 euro flight to Dublin where he can use his EU passport to enter Ireland, bus through the UK border with no interference whatsoever, and find illegal work for double that (£5/hr) in a car-wash run by one of his mates, depriving one of ours a legit min-wage job. Meanwhile his mate is a bit handy with a photocopier and photoshop and rigs up a false phone statement linked to a UK address so they can catch the ferry to Scotland.

Or a Bulgarian on £2.50/hr can save a little and buy a £29.99 euro flight to Dublin where he can use his EU passport to enter Ireland and find legal work for more than double the £2.50/hr he was earning. Plus he'd have legal access to benefits, housing etc that he wouldn't have in the UK. Plus he wouldn't have to worry about the immigration people raiding his home or place of work.

Or he could save a little and move to Germany, Austria, Sweden etc etc and work legally for a heck of a lot more than £2.50/hr.

What exactly is it about Britain that makes a low-paid black-market job here more appealing than a higher-paying job, plus access to other benefits, in other EU countries? Fish and chips? Our weather? What?

In that case why do you think the markets have fallen further in recent days following on from poll's that suggest that we are heading for a Brexit? You and I know both know that we wouldn't seen those sharp falls if the poll's were suggesting that we were likely to see a vote to remain in the EU.

The markets are reacting to uncertainty, like I said. So obviously if there were less uncertainty about the referendum result, the falls wouldn't have been as sharp.

And why do you think that both the IMF and the Bank Of England (both of course independent of the Government) are both suggesting that a Brexit would be bad for the UK economy?

Some economists suggest Brexit would be bad for the UK economy, others suggest that Brexit would benefit the UK economy.

But can you find a single economist who doesn't expect the FTSE to rally back after it's recent slump, whatever the result on the 23rd?

So let's not add to the chorus of hysterical scaremongering about the FTSE, shall we?

 

[WelshBluebird]

So vote for a government that isn't London centric. Governments aren't just there, they're voted in by the people and as a result, the people must accept the result of democracy.

I think I must have misread the referendum question then because I don't think that is an option.

No it didn't, his contract was drawn up years ago. Oh these EU working time directives sound all very good, but how many of them apply when you're on a zero hours contract?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And where do you think the EU get that money from? I don't think it grows on trees in Brussels!

The fact remains that until the EU directive, the UK did not have a minimum holiday allowance. That is simple fact. Now, thanks to the EU, we do.

And nope I know it does't. It comes from the, I fully accept that. However the fact is that the money gets spent in regions of the UK where Westminster would not spend the same amount of money. So sure, we leave the EU and so Westminster has some of the money to spend in the less well off bits of the UK. Except it won't spend that money there. We know that. As I mentioned before, look how well (lol) the Northern Powerhouse scheme is going.

 

[EM2]

What I will say is that the recent fall in the FTSE was caused by investor uncertainty over whether or not we'll Brexit.

The index only fell when a number of polls suggested that Leave had a reasonable lead, and therefore that it was a much greater risk than previously.

 

[Gutfright]

The index only fell when a number of polls suggested that Leave had a reasonable lead, and therefore that it was a much greater risk than previously.

If the polls had been showing leave and remain as being neck and neck, that would almost certainly mean that remain would win. People tend to get cold feet on voting day, and that favours the status quo.

When polls show leave with a reasonable lead, that means that the result is genuinely up in the air. That creates uncertainty, which investors don't like.

Whatever the result on the 23rd, every economist expects the FTSE to rally back. Let's not get hysterical here.

 

[Csa55]

Out of EU.

All the remain campaign is based on fear mongering. All those "respected bodies": IMF, Global Banks, Commissions- are in bed with Globalists. They want the world under one Government, they don't care about Britain, they simply have money vested and worry about speculation and uncertainty decreasing their profits.

Britain is imprisoned by EU hopes that don't prosper. We have no power in Brussels, we cannot overrule, we cannot elect or dismiss- Brussels overrules us. We didn't win 2 World Wars to surrender to Germany, because let's face it, Germany rules the EU. The EU is impoverished- full of poor nations with huge unemployment and Britain and Germany propping it up. Things will only get worse under EU rule. Greece should never have been allowed to join and is broke, Italy will be next.

We don't need politicians to blind us with statistics because we can see and feel ourselves the strain our services are under. The government has no control over movement of people and we cannot take members of our Commonwealth with skills and education because we're forced by EU to have open doors to EU- there're no places for anyone else.

EU is in decline while Britain is slowly growing. EU is hugely bureaucratic and takes upto 10 years to pass trade deals we can get in months. EU blocks us from trading with anyone else besides them. We have valuable partners in China and India we could be dealing with. Britain will not suffer from punitive tarifs from the EU as they sell us more than we sell them, they need us to buy their cheeses, wines and cars. Britain will retain trade, will not require free movement to do so and will take back Sovereignty and trade with the rest of the World and enjoy partnering with its Commonwealth. Any drop in the Pound will do us good making us attractive to buyers, and growth will pick up as will the currency.

Immigration will still exist but we will be able to control it better and make our own laws. We cannot deal with EU, the 28 members will not agree with our wishes so we must leave. EU is weakening our military. Troops must spread thinly to cover EU zones in addition to their UK missions reducing effectiveness and increasing cost.

Remain talks about workers' rights, but the EU causes the lowest to rise and other tiers to drop, making it harder for businesses and decreasing overall wealth (and who exactly fills those lowest paying jobs?) Remain also talks about cheaper products, but this costs Britain as it must lower prices in line with poor EU nations while operating at higher cost.

We have no space for housing or schools, can we afford open doors? Of course not.

If Britain stays in EU, America will eventually infiltrate our country and NHS with GMO and sue Government/NHS for refusing to trade under the new EU-US trade partnership. The PM claims he exempted the NHS from the trade deal, but this exemption is not on paper confirmed.

Countries that do better, are required to pay more into the EU wasteful budget. Considering EU is much bigger and poorer than Britain, Germany and France, this does not look good for Britain which is trying to recover its growth as other nations will start to default. The EU imposes sanctions on nations that don't follow suit- this is not what I want for Great Britain. EU is big, but it is a basket case and it will drag us down with it, kicking and screaming. We were only given the EU referendum because the PM was required to do so for his position within the Party; there's no guarantee he will honour the result- he may call for a second vote if he's unhappy with Leave winning. We must grab the chance to get out while we have that option. The next referendum could be 50 years away.

Parts of UK (like Wales) see some money from EU and so think EU remain is best. It's not, since the UK as a whole prospers generally when London prospers as that's where wealth tends to generate. Hit London, the heart of the UK, and the coffers will be smaller.

Remainers claim Leaving will cause recession. This is disingenuous. Britain is heading for recession regardless, in or out will not change this.

Not that I believe the scare mongering, but I'd happily pay a little every year to have control back and not live under an undemocratic Elitist Globalist Superstate dictatorship. Quality of life and Democracy is what I want. A vote for EU is little more than Communism.

 

[Tracked]

So to sum up Csa55, the remain campaign is based on fear mongering and if we stay in we'll end up ruined by an undemocratic basket-case-economy that's going to fail?

 

[meridian2]

Not all of the 'Remain' campaign is fear-mongering, much of it is has salient points but the inherent core of the campaign, their belief that what really matters is the economy, is slightly misguided. There are many facets to the EU that are not all interdependent on the economy.