Should We Leave the EU?

[Gutfright]

What does humblebrag mean? My shares are my pension, the less I get @ 66 is less for me to spend in the economy, and I would be more reliant on state handouts.

Unless you are one day from retirement, and your retirement plan involves selling all your shares at once for a lump sum, then I wouldn't lose too much sleep over it.

I'm assuming you've had your shares for more than a couple of years now. If so, you'll be able to remember that not too long ago the FTSE was at around 5500, right?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Sorry, I was slightly mistaken. It was 3.5 years of payments wiped off the FTSE in a DAY.

You do realise that the FTSE and HM Treasury are completely different things, don't you?

Don't you?

 

[EM2]

You do realise that the FTSE and HM Treasury are completely different things, don't you?

Don't you?

Really? Are you sure? Does anyone else know this?

It was an illustration of how uncertainty over the EU is affecting people, by using familiar figures that have been discussed recently.

 

[Aldaniti]

Good grief, paper losses on shares? The remainers are becoming quite desperate now. Mind you, when they take their lead from an increasingly discredited Chancellor, who can offer nothing but doom, gloom and fear, we should hardly be surprised. Seems Osborne's latest wheeze is to threaten us with an emergency budget and examples of substantial 'illustrative' tax rises. He has lost any remaining credibility that he had - and that wasn't much in my view, given that the national debt has doubled on his watch. I just hope that those with influence in the Conservative Party shortly commence moves to have him replaced - whichever way the vote goes. Although perhaps there's an argument to say I ought not to complain.... every time Osborne opens his mouth, more votes move to the leave camp. Apparently there is now a majority of 25-34 year-olds now intending to vote leave according to a recent poll. And on that note, time to go to work. Hi ho, hi ho.......

 

[VauxhallandI]

What solutions do you propose to try and minimise the amount of control the lunatics have over the asylum?

I didn't realise the general populous were now going to be the Government too, now that would be interesting.

 

[NSEFAN]

I didn't realise the general populous were now going to be the Government too, now that would be interesting.

Democracy only works properly when people take the time to understand the issues. Given how complicated the issues surround Brexit are, I don't think many of us are really qualified to vote in this referendum. We have a situation where whoever sets public opinion decides the outcome of the referendum. Murdoch's gonna do well out of this.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Democracy only works properly when people take the time to understand the issues. Given how complicated the issues surround Brexit are, I don't think many of us are really qualified to vote in this referendum. We have a situation where whoever sets public opinion decides the outcome of the referendum. Murdoch's gonna do well out of this.

To be qualified to vote is most certainly not the same as to give considered opinion to what is the best outcome of an election in the mind of the voter.

With me, despite your generalised comment concerning whoever sets public opinion, my vote will be cast in this referendum on the basis of the time that I spent in my very own personal researching into the implications both in Britain and overseas entailed in the referendum criteria.

 

[Senex]

Has anyone else been listening to the Today programme this morning and ended up like me being even more confused not only about what the economic consequences of a Brexit are likely to be but also what the processes that will follow such a vote will be?

And whether the process of negotiation is a two-year one or a four-year one, what happens if at the end of it all the only terms that are reached are so poor that even those who voted for Brexit would not want to accept them?

 

[NSEFAN]

To be qualified to vote is most certainly not the same as to give considered opinion to what is the best outcome of an election in the mind of the voter.

With me, despite your generalised comment concerning whoever sets public opinion, my vote will be cast in this referendum on the basis of the time that I spent in my very own personal researching into the implications both in Britain and overseas entailed in the referendum criteria.

But this is the issue, Paul. You've taken the time to understand the issues and so are voting from an informed position. How many others will do the same as you?

 

[Nevillehill]

REAL POWER IS VESTED IN THE PEOPLE.
We do NOT have to put up with, or accept all the BS coming from Cameron and Osborne.
They are now so desperate they'll stop at nothing to get their way.
Remember that Cameron has already used £millions of taxpayers money to produce a leaflet prior to Purdah - AND HE GOT AWAY WITH IT.
There is nothing fair or reasonable about this referendum when we have interferrnce from the four corners of planet earth. Anyone would think the Earth will stop spinning if we btexit.
Think of it this way, if the UK was so important to those countries TELLING US TO VOTE to remain this corrupt eu, we should first TELL THEM to mind their own effing business in a British only issue, and then to ask them if they would join a similar set up and accept foreign rule. I don't believe they'd agree to it in a 'million years'.
PEOPLE POWER WILL GET OUR COUNTRY BACK, and then our elected MPs will have to do our bidding. We can get rid of them if they fail or ignore us, but WE CANNOT VOTE OUT THE EU ELITE, yet we pay for their privilaged lifestyle.
ONLY PEOPLE POWER can stop this unelected elite telling us what we may and may not do.
Have you noticed how quiet the EU has been recently. As news reports go, Juncker has instructed them all not to say or do anything that might upset the British people. IT'S A STITCH-UP.
When a UK prime minister has to grovel to other countries to support HIM, we know he's desperate.
Memo to Cameton and Osborne, we REFUSE to put up with your scaremongering. CHANGE THE BLOODY RECORD AND TALK OUR COUNTRY UP, NOT DOWN.
VOTE BREXIT

 

[zuriblue]

Britain Elects ‏@britainelects 2m2 minutes ago
Should note the BMG #EUref poll we posted earlier now confirmed to be a hoax. Someone went out of their way to create a fake press release.

Someone's gone to a lot of trouble to create a fake poll showing Leave at 45% and Remain at 41%. I wonder what they were trying to acheive.

There really has been some major league mendacity in this campaign, mainly from the Leave side. (although neither side is blameless)

 

[NSEFAN]

ONLY PEOPLE POWER can stop this unelected elite telling us what we may and may not do.

Yeah, we will show the elite who's boss... by voting to leave a regulatory framework and giving the elite more control instead. Genius!

I stand by my comment about democracy.

 

[Antman]

REAL POWER IS VESTED IN THE PEOPLE.
We do NOT have to put up with, or accept all the BS coming from Cameron and Osborne.
They are now so desperate they'll stop at nothing to get their way.
Remember that Cameron has already used £millions of taxpayers money to produce a leaflet prior to Purdah - AND HE GOT AWAY WITH IT.
There is nothing fair or reasonable about this referendum when we have interferrnce from the four corners of planet earth. Anyone would think the Earth will stop spinning if we btexit.
Think of it this way, if the UK was so important to those countries TELLING US TO VOTE to remain this corrupt eu, we should first TELL THEM to mind their own effing business in a British only issue, and then to ask them if they would join a similar set up and accept foreign rule. I don't believe they'd agree to it in a 'million years'.
PEOPLE POWER WILL GET OUR COUNTRY BACK, and then our elected MPs will have to do our bidding. We can get rid of them if they fail or ignore us, but WE CANNOT VOTE OUT THE EU ELITE, yet we pay for their privilaged lifestyle.
ONLY PEOPLE POWER can stop this unelected elite telling us what we may and may not do.
Have you noticed how quiet the EU has been recently. As news reports go, Juncker has instructed them all not to say or do anything that might upset the British people. IT'S A STITCH-UP.
When a UK prime minister has to grovel to other countries to support HIM, we know he's desperate.
Memo to Cameton and Osborne, we REFUSE to put up with your scaremongering. CHANGE THE BLOODY RECORD AND TALK OUR COUNTRY UP, NOT DOWN.
VOTE BREXIT

Here here!

I really cannot understand how anybody who considers themselves to be working class can want to stay in the EU, it's like turkeys voting for Christmas!

I was speaking to one of our binmen this morning, he was saying how they are trying to get the old school brigade (the ones on remunerative ex council contracts) out the door and replace them with cheap labour, ie Eastern Europeans. He is currently on a decent wage, five weeks holiday a year and double time if he's called out on a Sunday, of course the new recruits won't be getting anything like that. He accepts that a vote for Brexit is to some extent a trip into the unknown but the overwhelming feeling amongst him and his colleagues is that things cannot possibly be any worse than they are now.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Here here!

I really cannot understand how anybody who considers themselves to be working class can want to stay in the EU, it's like turkeys voting for Christmas!

Because many of these people live in areas of the country that receive a very large amount of funding from EU. And so by being part of the EU, these areas get this funding, hence increasing the quality of life for the working class people who live there. Fairly simple really.

Of course, the leave campaign having promised to match EU funding until 2020. But based on the fact they have already made a large number of spending promises I really cannot see that happening. And even if it does, what happens after 2020?

 

[Muttley]

Just been watching PMQs, and CMD has convinced me, possibly up to 8 years to negotiate a trade deal. There was me fancying an Audi RS6 next year, but Dave says if I don't get when now the next one will be a 24-plate.
Well either that or he's talking his usual scaremongering crap.

 

[WelshBluebird]

He is currently on a decent wage, five weeks holiday a year and double time if he's called out on a Sunday, of course the new recruits won't be getting anything like that. He accepts that a vote for Brexit is to some extent a trip into the unknown but the overwhelming feeling amongst him and his colleagues is that things cannot possibly be any worse than they are now.

Hmmm and where did the rights for five weeks holiday etc come from? (I'll give you a hint, before the EU Working Time Directive, the UK did not have a minimum holiday entitlement and the conservative government actually tried to stop the directive being passed).

 

[TheKnightWho]

Are you back, Sweetie ?
That's two of you Remainers now that have called immigration/immigrants a 'problem'. I thought you lot thought they were an asset.
Who'd have thunk it, forever changing the facts to fit your reality.

You're not answering the question.

It will not be a problem because immigrants are a "problem", but because it will mean that there will either be no change to immigration (angering the likes of you), or freedom of movement with be stopped between Northern Ireland and the Republic, which long predates the EU. Which is it?

But yes, you put on that patronising face whenever you haven't got an answer to a problem that never even occurred to you It never ceases to amaze how little you have to say, frankly.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Good grief, paper losses on shares? The remainers are becoming quite desperate now. Mind you, when they take their lead from an increasingly discredited Chancellor, who can offer nothing but doom, gloom and fear, we should hardly be surprised. Seems Osborne's latest wheeze is to threaten us with an emergency budget and examples of substantial 'illustrative' tax rises. He has lost any remaining credibility that he had - and that wasn't much in my view, given that the national debt has doubled on his watch. I just hope that those with influence in the Conservative Party shortly commence moves to have him replaced - whichever way the vote goes. Although perhaps there's an argument to say I ought not to complain.... every time Osborne opens his mouth, more votes move to the leave camp. Apparently there is now a majority of 25-34 year-olds now intending to vote leave according to a recent poll. And on that note, time to go to work. Hi ho, hi ho.......

It's "funny" up until the point those companies go bust.

 

[Blamethrower]

Because many of these people live in areas of the country that receive a very large amount of funding from EU. And so by being part of the EU, these areas get this funding, hence increasing the quality of life for the working class people who live there. Fairly simple really.

Of course, the leave campaign having promised to match EU funding until 2020. But based on the fact they have already made a large number of spending promises I really cannot see that happening. And even if it does, what happens after 2020?

My questions would be....

Why does this money (like say the £5million give to the Welsh Highland railway) have to take such a long way round?

Why is it only the EU supporting projects like this?
Why can't the money go directly to them from the UK government?

To me, the EU is like some big nanny, divvying out money to holistic projects that in reality don't offer any ROI. In the UK this is projects like the WHR but in Spain for example, they take enough money to build entirely new high speed rail systems and motorways.

Surely, it should be an English national assembly making governmental decisions and the British Government thinking more holistically.

I don't just want Brexit, I want Eexit. England to leave Great Britain. If England were to leave Great Briatin, then I would support being in the EU.

As long as there are multiple tiers of unaccountable government, none of this will ever work for the normal person on the street as our wages slow, costs rise, space reduces, congestion rises

Vote Leave EU, then vote Leave Great Britain (along with Wales, NI and Scotland) and then we can all join the EU in our own right, on our own terms.

For me Great Britain is a massive elephant in the room.

But I guess that poor old queeny is going to need to get her millions of pounds a year from somewhere......

 

[WelshBluebird]

My questions would be....

Why does this money (like say the £5million give to the Welsh Highland railway) have to take such a long way round?

Why is it only the EU supporting projects like this?
Why can't the money go directly to them from the UK government?

Why don't you ask the government (which includes some MP's who are currently campaigning to leave)? Maybe they can tell you why places in the North of England, South West of England and the South of Wales have been relegated to being "not important" in Westminster's eyes? Just look how much hot air rather than actual world world actions the whole "Northern powerhouse" stuff has been.

Of course, the answer is that the UK economy is very much skewed towards London and the South East of England and so by extension government spending and policy will be skewed that way too.

To me, the EU is like some big nanny, divvying out money to holistic projects that in reality don't offer any ROI

That is EXACTLY the point though. The money wouldn't get spent on those areas by the UK government (or an English government) because we (aka the politicians) care too much about money and ROI rather than actually deciding if something is worth doing irrespective.

 

[Harbornite]

Check out these articles in the Guardian

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/15/brexit-survival-guide-freeze-cheese-holidays-albania

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/31/brexit-referendum-campaigns-politicians

Some good points are raised in the brexit survival guide, although it is meant to be humorous in places which explains its unfair dismissal of domestic holidays.

 

[richa2002]

Why don't you ask the government (which includes some MP's who are currently campaigning to leave)? Maybe they can tell you why places in the North of England, South West of England and the South of Wales have been relegated to being "not important" in Westminster's eyes? Just look how much hot air rather than actual world world actions the whole "Northern powerhouse" stuff has been.

Of course, the answer is that the UK economy is very much skewed towards London and the South East of England and so by extension government spending and policy will be skewed that way too.



That is EXACTLY the point though. The money wouldn't get spent on those areas by the UK government (or an English government) because we (aka the politicians) care too much about money and ROI rather than actually deciding if something is worth doing irrespective.

So vote for a government that isn't London centric. Governments aren't just there, they're voted in by the people and as a result, the people must accept the result of democracy.

 

[TheKnightWho]

So vote for a government that isn't London centric. Governments aren't just there, they're voted in by the people and as a result, the people must accept the result of democracy.

Only if you assume the democratic system we have in place is adequate. It isn't.

 

[EM2]

REAL POWER IS VESTED IN THE PEOPLE.
We do NOT have to put up with, or accept all the BS coming from Cameron and Osborne.

But we do have to put up with it from Johnson, Gove and Farage?
Did anyone else imagine seeing all that being written down in green crayon?

 

[Muttley]

You're not answering the question.

Right, last time, just for you.
(By the way, I'm typing this slowly to help you.)

A vote to leave will change nothing on the 24th, it will mean negotiations will be opened.

Got it ?

 

[TheKnightWho]

Right, last time, just for you.
(By the way, I'm typing this slowly to help you.)

A vote to leave will change nothing on the 24th, it will mean negotiations will be opened.

Got it ?

So you're completely gutting everything you stand for?

If Brexiters want to stop freedom of movement, Northern Ireland is a major constitutional crisis in the making. Pedantics about what this particular referendum opens up are irrelevant: what matters is what happens if Brexiters try and enforce their aims.

So once again: what is your answer to the potential problems in Northern Ireland? Or are you going to misunderstand me and patronise me for a third time? It's pretty funny how you seem to have no idea what I'm talking about, so assume I must be thick

 

[DarloRich]

My questions would be....

Why does this money (like say the £5million give to the Welsh Highland railway) have to take such a long way round?

Why is it only the EU supporting projects like this?
Why can't the money go directly to them from the UK government?

To me, the EU is like some big nanny, divvying out money to holistic projects that in reality don't offer any ROI. In the UK this is projects like the WHR but in Spain for example, they take enough money to build entirely new high speed rail systems and motorways.

Surely, it should be an English national assembly making governmental decisions and the British Government thinking more holistically.

I don't just want Brexit, I want Eexit. England to leave Great Britain. If England were to leave Great Briatin, then I would support being in the EU.

As long as there are multiple tiers of unaccountable government, none of this will ever work for the normal person on the street as our wages slow, costs rise, space reduces, congestion rises

Vote Leave EU, then vote Leave Great Britain (along with Wales, NI and Scotland) and then we can all join the EU in our own right, on our own terms.

For me Great Britain is a massive elephant in the room.

But I guess that poor old queeny is going to need to get her millions of pounds a year from somewhere......

But the choice you want isn't on offer. We have a choice to leave or stay.

Put simply: On spending I do not trust the Conservatives to spend money in deprived areas. The EU do. I come from the North East and see what the EU pays for that the government wont.

The Evening Chronicle suggest that since 2007 the NE has received £187 per head compared to a national average of £82 form the EU. The Tories wont spend that.

Between 2007 and 2013 the North East received £195.4m in European Social Fund (ESF) grants and £296.8m in European Regional Development Fund (ERDF) grants. I don't believe the Tories will cover that funding shortfall despite whatever claims they may make.

 

[AndrewNewens]

My questions would be....

I don't just want Brexit, I want Eexit. England to leave Great Britain. If England were to leave Great Briatin, then I would support being in the EU.

You'll have a job. Great Britain is the name of the largest island of the British Isles ie mainland Scotland, plus Wales (minus Anglesey) and England (minus the Isle of White). Think you must mean the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. That said, I'm not sure I follow your logic.

Just vote remain for now and we can start the major civil engineering project later/

 

[Howardh]

Can us from the Bolton/Bury/Rochdale areas swap you for a referendum on whether we should stay or leave Greater Manchester and go back into Lancashire??

**PS Don't bring forth arguments that Lancashire's still there and Greater Sodding Manchester is just an admin.....blah blah blah > having just driven home from the Lake District there's a flaming sign saying "Lancashire" and it's on the 1974 border, not the proper one.

 

[LateThanNever]

I'm sorry to say that we are heading for a Brexit. Labour Party voters / supporters from working class backgrounds are convinced that immigrants are to blame for everything, not matter how much I talk about Tory austerity measures. All I hear is "immigrants first", the mythical £350 million, "I want my country back" and fourthly "everyone I know is voting 'Out'. No matter how prepared I am for these responses they will not be convinced otherwise. Depressing stuff but they've made their minds up.

The other matter is that this thinking is quite understandable:
The Bremainers need to blast the anti immigration stance of the Brexiters by telling them that it is the five years or more of austerity that have lead people to the conclusion that immigration is a big problem. Cameron and Osborne, if they do succeed in getting Britain out of Europe, can thank austerity. They will have been hoisted by their own petard.
They’ve been telling us for ever that money is extremely limited and reducing year on year, cutting budgets and making life so much more difficult for us all yet the immigration continues to expand whilst there are still 1.5million people looking for work in the UK – so what would you conclude?
I’d say the very limited available resources should be shared among ‘us’ and not one person more. Charity begins at home and all that – or as Farage would say, it is the National Health Service not the International Health Service.

The Bremainers should use this as a heaven sent opportunity to dish the dirt on austerity. The cause of our problems.
Indeed I really think Labour should now treat the referendum as an election campaign for the next government. Because it looks as if Cameron and Osborne need to start spending fast to keep Britain in.

 

[AndrewNewens]

The other matter is that this thinking is quite understandable:
The Bremainers need to blast the anti immigration stance of the Brexiters by telling them that it is the five years or more of austerity that have lead people to the conclusion that immigration is a big problem. Cameron and Osborne, if they do succeed in getting Britain out of Europe, can thank austerity. They will have been hoisted by their own petard.
They’ve been telling us for ever that money is extremely limited and reducing year on year, cutting budgets and making life so much more difficult for us all yet the immigration continues to expand whilst there are still 1.5million people looking for work in the UK – so what would you conclude?
I’d say the very limited available resources should be shared among ‘us’ and not one person more. Charity begins at home and all that – or as Farage would say, it is the National Health Service not the International Health Service.

The Bremainers should use this as a heaven sent opportunity to dish the dirt on austerity. The cause of our problems.
Indeed I really think Labour should now treat the referendum as an election campaign for the next government. Because it looks as if Cameron and Osborne need to start spending fast to keep Britain in.

Good point. However, as has already been pointed out, such arguments fall on deaf ears. I've just been canvassing in a nice middle class area and it was 70% Remain. On the streets and on the doorstep in less affluent areas the Leavers are basing their decision on one thing and one thing only..... Immigration.

 

[ExRes]

Cameron and Osborne, if they do succeed in getting Britain out of Europe, can thank austerity.

Now I really am confused, I was under the impression that Cameron and Osborne were campaigning to remain in the EU, no wonder nobody knows what's going on if they're this good at bluffing

A superb piece of work by Osborne to realise a week before the referendum that the country will be bankrupted by leaving the EU, as excellent a chancellor as we've ever had