Should We Leave the EU?

[dcsprior]

Well it's irrelevant, clearly we don't need unskilled migrants coming to the UK when we have plenty of our own out of work. If there is a shortage of bricklayers or plumbers in the UK by all means recruit some from abroad but as far as I'm aware there isn't a shortage.

If there is a British and a non-British applicant for the same job, and if they're equally qualified, hard-working, skilled, etc then the employer would surely look at the next point of difference and hire the applicant with the better spoken and written English (which would be completely legal). So if the British applicant doesn't get the job, that's because they're not as good by one of the measures the employer uses; or (perhaps more likely) that they didn't even apply, but are still complaining about foreigners taking jobs.

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[Antman]

I asked if you thought Polish brick layers were unskilled in response to your claim about an unlimited number of unskilled migrants coming over here and draining our resources. I didn't say you hate Polish people but you called me ignorant for asking that question. For your information the last time I had builders round one of them was a Polish brick layer so I was trying to establish whether he fitted in to your unclear definition of unskilled or not. It appears from the rest of your post that you've given a standard UKIP politician type response that's a load of waffle which avoids giving an answer to the question.



Again you've avoided my question and I did say 'can' not 'will.' It really sounds like you've been taken in to a darken room and brainwashed by Farage and Johnson.

Go back and check, you're the one who bought hate into it and quite frankly it sounds like you are the one who has been brainwashed.
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If there is a British and a non-British applicant for the same job, and if they're equally qualified, hard-working, skilled, etc then the employer would surely look at the next point of difference and hire the applicant with the better spoken and written English (which would be completely legal). So if the British applicant doesn't get the job, that's because they're not as good by one of the measures the employer uses; or (perhaps more likely) that they didn't even apply, but are still complaining about foreigners taking jobs.

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What a ridiculous argument.

Quite obviously it's market forces, the more people applying for a job the more it favours the employer. Basically if you don't want to be treated abysmally in a minimum wage, zero hours job they'll soon find a migrant that does.

It comes down to who will do the job for less money!

 

[northwichcat]

Go back and check, you're the one who bought hate into it and quite frankly it sounds like you are the one who has been brainwashed.

What I said was

That's a load of rubbish. The number of unskilled people in the world is not infinity so there can't be an unlimited number of unskilled people arriving. And what are you classing as unskilled - are Polish brick layers unskilled in your opinion?

In response to

unlimited numbers of unskilled migrants coming here

You're either the kind of person who would be offended if a police officer said "We'd like to speak to a black man who was wearing a grey tracksuit and red baseball cap who may be able to help us with our inquiries" or you imagined something.

 

[Antman]

What I said was



In response to



You're either the kind of person who would be offended if a police officer said "We'd like to speak to a black man who was wearing a grey tracksuit and red baseball cap who may be able to help us with our inquiries" or you imagined something.

No you accused me of hating immigrants!

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That's a load of rubbish. The number of unskilled people in the world is not infinity so there can't be an unlimited number of unskilled people arriving. And what are you classing as unskilled - are Polish brick layers unskilled in your opinion?
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So where are you going to put the millions of Britons who may have to return home if we leave the EU and restrict immigration, who will end up taking the place of those immigrants that you hate so much? There's millions of retired Britons living abroad who will be a much bigger drain on the NHS than a equivalent number of working age Eastern Europeans.

^^^^Here it is, enjoy your humble pie :roll:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzjIK_bXI-g

 

[northwichcat]

Here it is, enjoy your humble pie :roll:

I've put in the humble pie at Gas Mark Egg On Your Face as that was in response to:

the detrimental effect it will have on the lives of the indigenous population

Are you saying you like immigrants even though you've effectively said they are having a damaging effect on the natives? If not then what exactly are you making such a big fuss about?

 

[Antman]

I've put in the humble pie at Gas Mark Egg On Your Face as that was in response to:



Are you saying you like immigrants even though you've effectively said they are having a damaging effect on the natives? If not then what exactly are you making such a big fuss about?

How many more times do I need to explain the same thing?

Just watch the youtube clip in my previous post, the guy in that does it for me.

 

[northwichcat]

How many more times do I need to explain the same thing?

Just watch the youtube clip in my previous post, the guy in that does it for me.

You've not explained yourself. I've had to trawl through a load of previous posts to try and find what exactly you were moaning about and when I found something I thought could have raised an objection and explained my position, you first ignored it and then later came back again making the same original objection, again without explaining what post you were objecting to. Then after you do say which post you are objecting to, it was actually in response to a post where you implied you have a problem with immigrants coming here. When I ask you to clarify your position you tell me to refer to a YouTube video. Unless it's you in the video, you've not clarified your position so the only logical conclusion is you were objecting to me saying you don't like immigrants when you say you have a problem with immigrants coming here. :roll:

 

[Antman]

You've not explained yourself. I've had to trawl through a load of previous posts to try and find what exactly you were moaning about and when I found something I thought could have raised an objection and explained my position, you first ignored it and then later came back again making the same original objection, again without explaining what post you were objecting to. Then after you do say which post you are objecting to, it was actually in response to a post where you implied you have a problem with immigrants coming here. When I ask you to clarify your position you tell me to refer to a YouTube video. Unless it's you in the video, you've not clarified your position so the only logical conclusion is you were objecting to me saying you don't like immigrants when you say you have a problem with immigrants coming here. :roll:

If you really haven't grasped it by now then clearly this debate isn't for you:roll:

 

[northwichcat]

If you really haven't grasped it by now then clearly this debate isn't for you:roll:

There's probably 100 or more different issues related to potentially leaving the EU that could be discussed in this thread but the right wing political parties have made such a big fuss about one of those issues, some people are forgetting about the majority of the rest.

 

[Antman]

There's probably 100 or more different issues related to potentially leaving the EU that could be discussed in this thread but the right wing political parties have made such a big fuss about one of those issues, some people are forgetting about the majority of the rest.

I think most people would agree that immigration is the number one issue, and no not just right wing political parties.

 

[northwichcat]

I think most people would agree that immigration is the number one issue, and no not just right wing political parties.

Really? I would have thought most people's number one issue would be how their salary compares to the cost of living and numerous things not related to immigration have an effect on that.

 

[Harbornite]

If you really haven't grasped it by now then clearly this debate isn't for you:roll:

Do you acknowledge that thee isn't an "unlimited number of immigrants trying to settle in the UK?

 

[EM2]

I think most people would agree that immigration is the number one issue, and no not just right wing political parties.

No, it's the economy.

 

[Harbornite]

No, it's the economy.

I agree, at least that's what I think. I couldn't care less if plumbers and bus drivers are born in Poland and not England, for instance.

 

[tony_mac]

Well it's irrelevant, clearly we don't need unskilled migrants coming to the UK when we have plenty of our own out of work. If there is a shortage of bricklayers or plumbers in the UK by all means recruit some from abroad but as far as I'm aware there isn't a shortage.

Britain hit by worst skills shortage for 30 years

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2948908/Britain-hit-worst-skills-shortage-30-years-means-earn-100-000-year-plumber-aged-just-19-prepared-graft.html

BRITAIN'S chronic lack of bricklayers and carpenters could scupper plans announced today by the Chancellor to build 400,000 new affordable homes

http://www.express.co.uk/finance/city/622069/Shortage-bricklayers-carpenters-Chancellor-400000-affordable-homes

 

[NSEFAN]

Well it's irrelevant, clearly we don't need unskilled migrants coming to the UK when we have plenty of our own out of work.

Out of interest, do you believe that the government should be proactively helping people to get jobs (state apprenticeships, etc), or do you feel that we should heavily curtail immigration and let the market "force" them into work?

 

[Tetchytyke]

I see James Dyson has come out and said we need to leave the EU "in order to protect British manufacturing and British jobs".

That Dyson closed all his UK factories, shipping the jobs to Malaysia with the loss of 1000 jobs, seems to be an irony lost on the Leave campaign.

 

[PhilipRhayader]

And who is put forward by the leave campaign - Johnson, Smith, Gove, Farage. Remind me which party they are primarily from.

While I'm on, any idea how much of this alledged £350 million a week do you expect those four to allocate to education/health/welfare, given how much three of them have had a hand in cut, cut, cut?

I do apologise as I seem to have missed the answers from those intending to vote leave.

 

[Aldaniti]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2948908/Britain-hit-worst-skills-shortage-30-years-means-earn-100-000-year-plumber-aged-just-19-prepared-graft.html


http://www.express.co.uk/finance/city/622069/Shortage-bricklayers-carpenters-Chancellor-400000-affordable-homes

It's really simple. Government and business can take on apprenticeships and train them. Have a loyalty clause to ensure a return on investment, job done. That's what I did - and guess what, it works! It should have happened years ago. Once upon a time it was the norm - but with the advent of Maastricht it became cheaper and less hassle for businesses (and both the Labour and now Conservative governments), to import the labour. The immigrants often leave regional skills gaps in their own countries, and family ties are severed, sometimes for many years. We often forget the negative effects of emigration for the source country

HMG have a huge database of candidates, all they need do is get on with it.

 

[miami]

It's really simple. Government and business can take on apprenticeships and train them. Have a loyalty clause to ensure a return on investment, job done. That's what I did - and guess what, it works! It should have happened years ago. Once upon a time it was the norm - but with the advent of Maastricht it became cheaper and less hassle for businesses (and both the Labour and now Conservative governments), to import the labour.

The majority of immigrants into the UK last year were from outside the EU.

 

[northwichcat]

The immigrants often leave regional skills gaps in their own countries

Which is the case with doctors, some doctors trained in Britain have chosen to work in countries such as Australia and Canada, which leads to doctors from the other countries coming here to fill the void. One Eastern European country (I can't remember which one) reported doctors reaching retirement age in their country can't retire as the young doctors have gone to work abroad meaning there's no-one to take the place of any doctors who retire.

However, if one country has too many people qualified for one role and another country has too few then people going to work abroad is a good solution. While it's been mentioned further up that there are skill shortages in the UK for certain fields, there are also fields where there are too many qualified people for the number of vacancies.

 

[Aldaniti]

Which is the case with doctors, some doctors trained in Britain have chosen to work in countries such as Australia and Canada, which leads to doctors from the other countries coming here to fill the void. One Eastern European country (I can't remember which one) reported doctors reaching retirement age in their country can't retire as the young doctors have gone to work abroad meaning there's no-one to take the place of any doctors who retire.

However, if one country has too many people qualified for one role and another country has too few then people going to work abroad is a good solution. While it's been mentioned further up that there are skill shortages in the UK for certain fields, there are also fields where there are too many qualified people for the number of vacancies.

Of course - I was referring to the examples given by tonymac. Apologies, I inadvertently made a bit of a hash with the quoting!

 

[yorksrob]

I see James Dyson has come out and said we need to leave the EU "in order to protect British manufacturing and British jobs".

That Dyson closed all his UK factories, shipping the jobs to Malaysia with the loss of 1000 jobs, seems to be an irony lost on the Leave campaign.

Almost as good as John Major warning all of us about how his political colleagues (lest we forget) can't be trusted not to privatise the NHS, given his record with privatisations.

 

[miami]

Almost as good as John Major warning all of us about how his political colleagues (lest we forget) can't be trusted not to privatise the NHS, given his record with privatisations.

Not really, with Major it's "takes one to know one", with Dyson it's "do as I say and I'll make a few billion more muhahahaha".

 

[Antman]

Really? I would have thought most people's number one issue would be how their salary compares to the cost of living and numerous things not related to immigration have an effect on that.

Wages are inextricably linked to immigration
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I agree, at least that's what I think. I couldn't care less if plumbers and bus drivers are born in Poland and not England, for instance.

But you would no doubt think differently if you were a plumber with a family to support but you were being undercut by an eastern European living in a squalid bedsit.

 

[tony_mac]

Wages are inextricably linked to immigration

Any effect is quite modest, and not necessarily negative. There is lots of literature about the effects in the US. A quick example...

http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2015/06/01/does-immigration-suppress-wages-its-not-so-simple/

A couple of quotes from it...

“For this reason, immigrants can raise native workers’ real wages, and each immigrant could create more than one job. Using U.S. Census data from 1980 to 2000, we find considerable evidence for these effects: Each immigrant creates 1.2 local jobs for local workers

They find illegal workers generally receive lower pay than native-born workers, generating higher profits for local businesses. This in turn pushes firms to create more jobs per unemployed [person] when there are more immigrants, improving the labor market tightness and reducing unemployment rate of natives.

I am not suggesting that these studies are necessarily correct, or would hold in the UK, but the 'immigrants obviously lower wages' argument is incredibly simplistic.

 

[Harbornite]

Wages are inextricably linked to immigration
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But you would no doubt think differently if you were a plumber with a family to support but you were being undercut by an eastern European living in a squalid bedsit.

But I'm not, and if I was, I'd consider alternative employment.

 

[Antman]

But I'm not, and if I was, I'd consider alternative employment.

So all the training you had done learning the job would be for nothing?

Using the same logic do you think guards on Southern should go and get another job or is that somehow different?

 

[Harbornite]

So all the training you had done learning the job would be for nothing?

Yes, I know people who were in an industry for over 15 years, they decided to retrain and seek alternative employment after being made redundant due to the credit crunch.
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So all the training you had done learning the job would be for nothing?

Using the same logic do you think guards on Southern should go and get another job or is that somehow different?

No, what a stupid comparison. :roll: They are performing an important role and the context is completely different. Honestly, I don't really know why I'm repling to this wibble. Are you too thick to understand that the job of the plumber isn't under threat, unlike guards at Southern?

 

[Antman]

Yes, I know people who were in an industry for over 15 years, they decided to retrain and seek alternative employment after being made redundant due to the credit crunch.
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No, what a stupid comparison. :roll: They are performing an important role and the context is completely different. Honestly, I don't really know why I'm repling to this wibble. Are you too thick to understand that the job of the plumber isn't under threat, unlike guards at Southern?

Oh and plumbers don't do an important job do they?

Lots of jobs are in danger because of cheap labour from abroad but clearly you're too thick to grasp that.

I shall ignore any further posts from you.