Class 319 future

[MatthewRead]

South Eastern may get more than just a few.....

Not anymore they aren't!

 

[southern442]

This may be an incredibly naive and stupid thing to ask, but has the scrap metal from any trains been used to create new ones? I know there are lots of jokes on the forum about turning old trains into things like Coke cans, but, providing there isn't too much corrosion or rust on the bodies, could metal and/or parts from units such as the 319s be re-cycled to make new trains?

 

[dgl]

This may be an incredibly naive and stupid thing to ask, but has the scrap metal from any trains been used to create new ones? I know there are lots of jokes on the forum about turning old trains into things like Coke cans, but, providing there isn't too much corrosion or rust on the bodies, could metal and/or parts from units such as the 319s be re-cycled to make new trains?

Was done on the 442's, they used traction motors and control gear (camshafts) from the 4REP's

 

[zn1]

plenty of copper in them motors, ma sets, and of course the wiring, the plastic can be recycled, i would say that 100% of a unit can be recycled..

in the old days Southern would take a unit to lancing set fire to it, and fit a new body to the underframe, it has been attempted in modern era as networker classic showed...

 

[SpacePhoenix]

What sort of state are they in structurally and mechanically? Would it be worth replacing the entire traction package?

 

[southern442]

plenty of copper in them motors, ma sets, and of course the wiring, the plastic can be recycled, i would say that 100% of a unit can be recycled..

in the old days Southern would take a unit to lancing set fire to it, and fit a new body to the underframe, it has been attempted in modern era as networker classic showed...

How much money would recycling old train materials save compared to what manufacturing companies do presently? I'm not aware of the specifics, just wondering if it is a viable option and something we should be considering.

 

[Domh245]

This may be an incredibly naive and stupid thing to ask, but has the scrap metal from any trains been used to create new ones? I know there are lots of jokes on the forum about turning old trains into things like Coke cans, but, providing there isn't too much corrosion or rust on the bodies, could metal and/or parts from units such as the 319s be re-cycled to make new trains?

As others have said, the southern were good at recycling their units. As for bits of train finding their way back, it'd be possible, but unlikely. Given the state of the parts 'post processing' [potentially distressing photo!] (which rules out wholesale reuse of any panels) and the fact that they tend to get shipped abroad for melting down, I'd be surprised if they made their way back. But then again, it depends on who the suppliers are and the grade of material specified by the design office.

 

[edwin_m]

What sort of state are they in structurally and mechanically? Would it be worth replacing the entire traction package?

The traction package on the SWT 455s and one batch of 321s is being replaced with a modern electronic one, so this could in principle be done with the 319s too. However it is difficult to justify the cost of doing so even though this allows energy saving from regenerative braking. With the 455s it is justified by reducing maintenance, so the new 707s can also be based in the same depot, and probably also by eliminating resistance losses in the camshaft control.

When transfer of the 319s northwards was first suggested, they were proposed to be re-tractioned and re-engineered with air conditioning. This hasn't happened and doesn't look likely to, beyond accessibility mods and a minor interior refresh. However the new TPE and Northern units will be used for longer-distance routes that were probably intended at that time to get 319s.

 

[trainmania100]

The 460s were a great example of recycling!
Having their noses chopped off

 

[samuelmorris]

The traction package on the SWT 455s and one batch of 321s is being replaced with a modern electronic one, so this could in principle be done with the 319s too. However it is difficult to justify the cost of doing so even though this allows energy saving from regenerative braking. With the 455s it is justified by reducing maintenance, so the new 707s can also be based in the same depot, and probably also by eliminating resistance losses in the camshaft control.

I would also argue better ride quality. The abrupt jolts of 455s are nasty compared to their AC-powered Mk3 counterparts, or for that matter the DMUs, if you don't mind the noise and the fumes...

 

[ScotGG]

Not anymore they aren't!

Not even receiving 10 by the end of the year?

I hope a suitable replacement is incoming just as soon then. They are off-lease by then, some SE drivers sign them and would be a very useful stop gap to put on Victoria services to free up Networkers for longer services into Cannon Street and Charing Cross, especially with paths cut from August.

More Networkers freed up does nothing about their lack of SDO of course but would provide interim relief. Unless Southeastern get at least as many trains incoming with SDO then its not good they aren't coming over.

 

[ComUtoR]

Not anymore they aren't!

I thought there was already 6 on lease to Southeastern already ? That's
what was listed on Potterbrooks website. Is the unit-go-round blocked up somewhere or has the SE plan to run the 319's on the Vic's been cancelled ?

 

[physics34]

455s have compressors from 1930's SUBs!

 

[158722]

I thought there was already 6 on lease to Southeastern already ? That's
what was listed on Potterbrooks website. Is the unit-go-round blocked up somewhere or has the SE plan to run the 319's on the Vic's been cancelled ?

319217/220/373/421/436/451 were the ones quoted some time ago as being the 6 nominally sub/leased to SE, but used by/subleased back to TSGN TL in return for their 377s being used on some SE workings. Not sure if those 6 quoted are still valid.

 

[contrex]

455s have compressors from 1930's SUBs!

The SUBs in question were built from 1946 to 1951.

 

[Tynwald]

455s have compressors from 1930's SUBs!

Traction motors, reversers, field divert switches also. Class 508 have recovered SUB compressors.

 

[physics34]

Traction motors, reversers, field divert switches also. Class 508 have recovered SUB compressors.

Cool. thanks for the info.

 

[southern442]

Traction motors, reversers, field divert switches also. Class 508 have recovered SUB compressors.

Is that why their compressors sound different to other Mk3 units? A lot of the others (317s, 319s etc all seem to make a lower-pitched whirring)

 

[samuelmorris]

As far as I'm aware it's because their electrical equipment was built new at the time of the units - 1980s compressors operate at a considerably higher speed than those used in the 1950s (I assume that is more efficient, as even those used on modern units like 387s seem to operate at about the same speed).

 

[physics34]

As far as I'm aware it's because their electrical equipment was built new at the time of the units - 1980s compressors operate at a considerably higher speed than those used in the 1950s (I assume that is more efficient, as even those used on modern units like 387s seem to operate at about the same speed).

455 units used to have 3 compressors!!!! Newer units only have 1.

 

[ScotGG]

With just about every man and his dog franchise supposed to be getting new stock what will happen to all the 319s?

They aren't that old. If SE don't receive even a small number despite a dire need then rusting away for years until possible going to Wales?

 

[WarrenTManager]

455s have compressors from 1930's SUBs!

The oldest DH25 I have seen knocking around is dated 1938. It's probably been rebuilt thirty times. Trigger's broom!

 

[Andrew1395]

Not sure why Thameslink does not want to keep them, when they are running 1x4 trains in the peak.

 

[A0]

Not sure why Thameslink does not want to keep them, when they are running 1x4 trains in the peak.

Performance - they don't accelerate as quickly as the newer generations of EMUs - and that's going to be critical given the number of trains going through the Thameslink core.

Capacity - for whatever reason they don't have passenger corridor connections to allow walk-through between units.

For starters.

 

[edwin_m]

Performance - they don't accelerate as quickly as the newer generations of EMUs - and that's going to be critical given the number of trains going through the Thameslink core.

Capacity - for whatever reason they don't have passenger corridor connections to allow walk-through between units.

For starters.

Probably difficult to retro-fit ATO as well, although they may have to get ERTMS during their remaining life in the North or wherever else.

The future Thameslink won't be able to run any 4-car units, as they only come in non-divisible 8s and 12s.

 

[Class455]

I know this is highly unlikely to happen but I'd love to see Southern take on a few 319's for metro services to boost capacity and could have their couplers modified to work in multiple with Class 455's. They could also be used on the Horsham/Tonbridge/Reigate lines, cascading 377's elsewhere within Southern (such as helping to extend 8-car trains to 12 car)

 

[Class377/5]

Not sure why Thameslink does not want to keep them, when they are running 1x4 trains in the peak.

Not wanting to keep a class because there isn't enough of them? Your question answers itself.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Traction motors, reversers, field divert switches also. Class 508 have recovered SUB compressors.

Given that the motor is the venerable EE507 it wouldn't surprise me if the motors in the 455's have seen use in any of the CEP/VEP/HAP etc. fleets when a motor has been swapped out for another. The same motor has been used on virtually every SR based fleet built since 1951 from the SUBs to the 456. Commonality of parts and maintenance familiarity being advantages. The GEC motors used in 317/319/321 are derivatives and were manufactured in the same factory in Preston.

SR widely recycled stock. SUBs and SR EPB's reused underframes from 1920's NOL's, 442 the motors resistors and control gear from the REP's which themselves reused mk1 LHCS (the age of these being the REPs early downfall' its now the age of the REP gear thats putting the 442's future in doubt) 455 motors compressors etc from SUB, and their other examples. units were also widely reformed to make other units to extend their lives such as the tadpoles (Hastings demu with sub DT) EPBs often had SUB vehicles marshalled in the sets and were widely reformed in order to keep the best condition examples together, the CAP's (2xHAP permanently coupled) the REP and VEP reformations widely publicised. (VEP3000 being more CIG than VEP!)

Clever in some respects as many parts were interchangeable keeping maintenance costs down but the downside is ageing of the components relative to others on the complete unit, hence retractioning the 455's to remove the 1950's equipment from a 1980's train and the maintenance gains is far reaching

Fascinating stuff when you read into it all, who says units are boring?....

 

[northwichcat]

Not wanting to keep a class because there isn't enough of them? Your question answers itself.

Really? If every operator did that we'd have hundreds of usable trains sat in sidings doing nothing so that operators have nice consistent fleets. For instance, Northern's fleet plan would probably be 150s for local diesel services and 195s for longer diesel services with no need for the 155s, 156s or 158s.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

With just about every man and his dog franchise supposed to be getting new stock what will happen to all the 319s?

They aren't that old. If SE don't receive even a small number despite a dire need then rusting away for years until possible going to Wales?

It seems the rolling stock market is like the housing market and a few years ago it was a bad time to buy rolling stock and seen as unaffordable for most franchises. However, now it's seen as a good time to buy as much as possible before the price goes back up again. The prospect of having off-lease 319s doing nothing didn't prevent Porterbrook buying 20 speculative 387s!

There was a suggestion DfT, at one stage thought most of the 319s could go to the North. However, for the 319s to suitable for some routes a lot of expense would have been incurred so it wasn't really a cheap solution or a solution which would have been popular with travellers (with being older than some of the trains they would have replaced especially 323s and 185s on Blackpool/Windermere services)

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would be happy to see LM take a greater number of them in order that it might be economic to completely end 4 car working south of Birmingham.


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