Huge Expansion in Scotrail services planned

[najaB]

A later train at 23.30 going to Elgin and coming back ECS would be perfect. Tain get's one at the weekend so why shouldn't we?

Sounds like a good idea, though I think you're more likely to get an 2300-ish departure. Arriving Elgin at midnight and overnighting there to be the first early departure to Inverness. I can't remember, are the sidings/yard at Elgin still in use?

 

[me123]

I've never seen anything enter the yard in Elgin, so I can't say for certain, but it is still signalled (or at least was last time I was there - I've heard the semaphores have gone now?). Don't know if you'd be overnighting there - I don't think there's any based drivers or guards at Elgin, so you'd need lodging or taxis. ECS seems more sensible (it's only half an hour). It's a safe enough place to stable a train I reckon, but not practical for Scotrail.

A late night return to Elgin is a well deserved and needed service. Elgin gaining improved links to Inverness will really benefit Moray as a whole, and improve access to a beautiful part of the world.

 

[najaB]

I don't think there's any based drivers or guards at Elgin, so you'd need lodging or taxis. ECS seems more sensible (it's only half an hour). It's a safe enough place to stable a train I reckon, but not practical for Scotrail.

It was said up-thread that there will be an Elgin crew base in the not too distant future.

 

[me123]

Note to self: learn to read!

If that happens, then it may be a goer. The sidings are a bit isolated in the context of the rail network as a whole, but I'm sure you can stable a train there overnight in relative safety. Elgin's a safe little city. If you can stable trains in Airdrie overnight without them getting vandalised or stolen, then Elgin should be no problem.

In terms of the short term though, a late night working with ECS back to the depot shouldn't be too much of a strain I would have thought? Easily achievable with just a modest investment into staffing.

If not, Bodiddly might need to make do with Joanna's

 

[Bodiddly]

If not, Bodiddly might need to make do with Joanna's

God no!!!

 

[jopsuk]

What? Sorry, we'll all move South so we can enjoy the same lifestyle as the big city folk. Or here is another plan, why don't we implement a timetable that fits modern life? It's not like we are asking for much, just a train home after the start of the night would do for starters.

You're demanding that you're able to have it all, when in reality later services, once out of the central belt, would mean you and your partner could have a carriage each most services.

 

[Chrism20]

God no!!!

I was up that way last autumn with work in Nairn but stayed in Elgin and did think at the time that there was a lack of late services back to Elgin. As a result I encountered Joanna's and wholeheartedly agree!

Not even maybe!

 

[Bodiddly]

You're demanding that you're able to have it all, when in reality later services, once out of the central belt, would mean you and your partner could have a carriage each most services.

On the contrary, a Friday/Saturday late train out of Inverness to Nairn, Forres and Elgin has the potential to be a very busy service. Look, nobody is asking for a 4tph double tracking between these towns or electrification of the Highland mainline, that is never going to happen. I do think as Highlanders we are very much resigned to the fact our transport infrastructure is not a priority to both Edinburgh or London but we do expect to be able to travel between our towns at reasonable intervals and reasonable times. Inverness has grown exponentially over the last 3 decades and continues so. Our road network is bursting at the seams and people are desperate for an alternative. I do understand how the railway works and how difficult to even increase services are to a company with limited resources but I also know there is capacity, trains and train crew to provide at the very least a Friday/Saturday service that mirrors that of the late Tain which would be a 23.30 ish departure and a just past midnight arrival at Elgin. From then, the stock can be reversed and ran back to Inverness for fuelling and stabling. Not too much to ask for is it?

I was up that way last autumn with work in Nairn but stayed in Elgin and did think at the time that there was a lack of late services back to Elgin. As a result I encountered Joanna's and wholeheartedly agree!

Not even maybe!

You have seen first hand Chris, why we need a late service from Inverness!

 

[najaB]

Look, nobody is asking for a 4tph double tracking between these towns or electrification of the Highland mainline, that is never going to happen.

Interestingly, both of the above - additional double tracking of Aberdeen-Inverness and HML electrification - have realistic chances of happening in the foreseeable future.

 

[Altnabreac]

On the contrary, a Friday/Saturday late train out of Inverness to Nairn, Forres and Elgin has the potential to be a very busy service. Look, nobody is asking for a 4tph double tracking between these towns or electrification of the Highland mainline, that is never going to happen. I do think as Highlanders we are very much resigned to the fact our transport infrastructure is not a priority to both Edinburgh or London but we do expect to be able to travel between our towns at reasonable intervals and reasonable times. Inverness has grown exponentially over the last 3 decades and continues so. Our road network is bursting at the seams and people are desperate for an alternative. I do understand how the railway works and how difficult to even increase services are to a company with limited resources but I also know there is capacity, trains and train crew to provide at the very least a Friday/Saturday service that mirrors that of the late Tain which would be a 23.30 ish departure and a just past midnight arrival at Elgin. From then, the stock can be reversed and ran back to Inverness for fuelling and stabling. Not too much to ask for is it?



You have seen first hand Chris, why we need a late service from Inverness!

Given the investment currently underway on the A9, the A96, The Highland Main Line, Aberdeen - Inverness improvements and the City Deal announced this morning you'll forgive me if I view your complaints about lack of investment in the area as being laughably unjustified!

 

[neonison]

Given the investment currently underway on the A9, the A96, The Highland Main Line, Aberdeen - Inverness improvements and the City Deal announced this morning you'll forgive me if I view your complaints about lack of investment in the area as being laughably unjustified!

By 2018 there will be 4 different electrified routes linking Scotland's two principal cities, 43 miles apart.
How many electrified routes will link the two principal cities of Northern England, also 43 miles apart?

Don't speak about any lack of investment in Scottish Rail.
(I'm pretty sure Scotland doesn't have Pacers, either!)

 

[najaB]

By 2018 there will be 4 different electrified routes linking Scotland's two principal cities, 43 miles apart.
How many electrified routes will link the two principal cities of Northern England, also 43 miles apart?

This is true, but has no relevance to either Altnabreac or Bodiddly's posts. The Central Belt is to Moray what London is to Leeds.

 

[Altnabreac]

By 2018 there will be 4 different electrified routes linking Scotland's two principal cities, 43 miles apart.
How many electrified routes will link the two principal cities of Northern England, also 43 miles apart?

Don't speak about any lack of investment in Scottish Rail.
(I'm pretty sure Scotland doesn't have Pacers, either!)

Actually 5 routes:
Cumbernauld
Croy
Airdrie
Shotts
Carstairs

 

[jopsuk]

On the contrary, a Friday/Saturday late train out of Inverness to Nairn, Forres and Elgin has the potential to be a very busy service.

That's got more potential- the suggestion was from someone wanting late trains from Edinburgh back to Pitlochry. I can fully accept that a late night service to several sizable towns is a smart move; the original suggestion was to essentially run the 2319 Edinburgh-Perth all the way up the Highland Mainline serving nothing more than villages.

 

[Railsigns]

I've never seen anything enter the yard in Elgin, so I can't say for certain, but it is still signalled (or at least was last time I was there - I've heard the semaphores have gone now?).

Elgin still has semaphore signals. One was replaced by a colour light earlier this month but the others will remain until the signal box is closed.

 

[Argosy]

Altnabreac will now come in with his golden rules of reopenings and point out that there's never going to be a business case for reopning Dumfries to Stranraer. How much would it cost, and how many people would use it? The Borders route reopened because it would allow Midlothian and the Borders access to employment in Edinburgh. Access to employment in Glasgow and Edinburgh is the justification for all the reopenings in Scotland, something that Dumfries to Stranraer wouldn't do at all.

The way that Transport Scotland plans capital projects is that they focus on the outcome they want, not just a technical detail. For instance, if they looked at south west Scotland they would identify increased access to employment in Glasgow as being one of the key goals. Then they would look to see what projects would deliver that aim, including both rail and road projects. In this case, the idea most likely to go ahead would be to electrify from Ayr to Girvan and extend one of the Ayr express services every hour. Electrification and linespeed improvements (where possible) on the GSW line would be another likely outcome, so that a Dumfries-Glasgow commute would be bearable. Since the planning process doesn't set out technical solutions first, such as re-opening a certain railway line, it leaves them open to new ideas. For instance, it might be found that the best way to speed up Dumfries-Glasgow journeys would be to build a chord between Lockerbie and Dumfries and run a WCML service. Another option could be to improve the connecting service to Carlisle and then have people change there onto existing and future express services up to Glasgow and Edinburgh.

Really, well they don't think about public transport links to Ireland?

The easiest way of solving these longer distance ones is bi-mode. You need very few extra units to run an hourly bi-mode Glasgow - Girvan and a two hourly Glasgow - Stranraer. Just an extension of the existing fast and it works operationally two. No expensive wires to go up or maintain when the wind blows.

 

[Altnabreac]

Really, well they don't think about public transport links to Ireland?

The easiest way of solving these longer distance ones is bi-mode. You need very few extra units to run an hourly bi-mode Glasgow - Girvan and a two hourly Glasgow - Stranraer. Just an extension of the existing fast and it works operationally two. No expensive wires to go up or maintain when the wind blows.

The way STAG appraisal of trips to Ireland works is it looks at travel modes and journeys.

It will show that there are 350k pa flying from Glasgow, 350k pa flying from Edinburgh, 50k pa flying from Aberdeen, 90k pa coach and ferry, 10k pa rail sail via Ayr, 1k pa rail via Stranraer. (some guess work here but suspect these aren't far off)

So the priorities for improvement will be a shortlist of links to airports, facilities at coach stations, availability of coach services to Cairnryan and transfer times at Ayr.

In the longer term something like electrification to Girvan might help. But ferry passengers will never go via Stranraer again.

 

[Bodiddly]

Given the investment currently underway on the A9, the A96, The Highland Main Line, Aberdeen - Inverness improvements and the City Deal announced this morning you'll forgive me if I view your complaints about lack of investment in the area as being laughably unjustified!

Where in my post am I complaining about lack of investment? Read the post and understand the point before going off on one. I welcome any investment in our infrastructure and it's long overdue.

 

[Altnabreac]

Where in my post am I complaining about lack of investment? Read the post and understand the point before going off on one. I welcome any investment in our infrastructure and it's long overdue.

Here:

I do think as Highlanders we are very much resigned to the fact our transport infrastructure is not a priority to both Edinburgh or London.

And I pointed out all the billions that is being spent on transport infrastructure in the Highlands that makes me think the point you make is simply not true.

 

[Bodiddly]

Here:



And I pointed out all the billions that is being spent on transport infrastructure in the Highlands that makes me think the point you make is simply not true.

So where in the quote am I complaining about infrastructure spending? The A9 & A96 dualling will cost around £6 billion, a tidy sum in any ones eyes but it will take 15 years to deliver both. Again, I welcome the infrastructure spending but it's not exactly a priority is it?

 

[sng7]

So where in the quote am I complaining about infrastructure spending? The A9 & A96 dualling will cost around £6 billion, a tidy sum in any ones eyes but it will take 15 years to deliver both. Again, I welcome the infrastructure spending but it's not exactly a priority is it?

The A9 Project is upgrading over 80 miles of road across 11 different sites and is due to be finished by 2025 so nine years from now, with all the planning and paperwork needed let alone the fact that if you did it all at once the roadworks would make the A9 practically impossible, its not a surprise it will take some time. Thats logic not a lack of priority.

 

[Bodiddly]

The A9 Project is upgrading over 80 miles of road across 11 different sites and is due to be finished by 2025 so nine years from now, with all the planning and paperwork needed let alone the fact that if you did it all at once the roadworks would make the A9 practically impossible, its not a surprise it will take some time. Thats logic not a lack of priority.

And logic says these projects should have been started 20 years ago.

 

[najaB]

And logic says these projects should have been started 20 years ago.

The best time to start any major infrastructure project is always at least 10 years ago, so there's nothing new there. About the only major Scottish infrastructure project that doesn't fall into that category is the Queensferry Crossing. And that turned out not to actually be needed (at least for the reason it was thought to be).

 

[clc]

And logic says these projects should have been started 20 years ago.

Same could be said for many road schemes in the Central Belt, eg. M74 Completion, M8 Baillieston to Newhouse, Raith Interchange, all schemes with much better business cases than dualling the A9 and A96.

 

[route:oxford]

And logic says these projects should have been started 20 years ago.

They were in progress 20-25 years ago with the Dunblane Bypass opening in 1991 and which essentially completed the dualling between Perth and the Keir Roundabout.

Then the Tories lost power in 1997 and infrastructure spending from Stirling northwards completely dried up.

 

[adrock1976]

Same could be said for many road schemes in the Central Belt, eg. M74 Completion, M8 Baillieston to Newhouse, Raith Interchange, all schemes with much better business cases than dualling the A9 and A96.

I would like to mention that the present day extension of the M74 to Tradeston is not the original alignment as was planned in the Bruce Report of the 1950s. The original alignment of the southern flank of the motorway box would have gone through Glasgow Green (the Winter Gardens and Peoples' Palace would have either been re-sited or demolished), then follow Norfolk Street south of the mighty Clyde to meet up with the western flank (the section from Tradeston to St George's Cross) at West Street and join the Kingston Bridge. The present day M74 extension does not meet the Kingston Bridge, but directly joins the Renfrewshire Motorway and continues west.

Of note, the eastern flank has never been built, which would have run from Junction 15 Townhead/Royal Infirmary (where the northern flank that runs from St George's Cross to Townhead) becomes the Monklands Motorway eastwards) to meet up with the original alignment of the southern flank in the vicinity of Norfolk Street. This alignment would have been on an elevated section following High Street and Saltmarket via Glasgow Cross, and would have meant demolition of Provand's Lordship (believed to be the oldest residential house in the city), the buildings along High Street, and the Tollbooth Steeple at Glasgow Cross. Furthermore, the island platform of the former Glasgow Cross station would have been used for the concrete pillars to support the elevated motorway above, hence the reason why it did not reopen back in 1979 when part of the Glasgow Central Railway reopened from Rutherglen to Finnieston.

It does (to me) seem unlikely that the eastern flank of the motorway box will ever be constructed during my lifetime.

 

[Bodiddly]

They were in progress 20-25 years ago with the Dunblane Bypass opening in 1991 and which essentially completed the dualling between Perth and the Keir Roundabout.

Then the Tories lost power in 1997 and infrastructure spending from Stirling northwards completely dried up.

Have you been on the A9 recently North of Perth? Probably not when you cite a bypass just North of Stirling 20 odd years ago as being a major step forward. It was a Conservative constituency at the time so make of that what you will. Going further North where the Tory party became non existent, so did any funding! Labour were certainly not any better and it has taken a Nationalist government to set aside funding for improvements very recently.
Again, I welcome any investment in our transport infrastructure but re-iterate that we are certainly not a priority area in the UK.
But getting back to my original point, can an area that has a population of circa 50,000 expect to have a train timetable that suits the travelling needs of such a large population and in particular, a train leaving after half past nine in the evening from our main city? You would think so.

 

[Argosy]

The way STAG appraisal of trips to Ireland works is it looks at travel modes and journeys.

It will show that there are 350k pa flying from Glasgow, 350k pa flying from Edinburgh, 50k pa flying from Aberdeen, 90k pa coach and ferry, 10k pa rail sail via Ayr, 1k pa rail via Stranraer. (some guess work here but suspect these aren't far off)

So the priorities for improvement will be a shortlist of links to airports, facilities at coach stations, availability of coach services to Cairnryan and transfer times at Ayr.

In the longer term something like electrification to Girvan might help. But ferry passengers will never go via Stranraer again.

It was improvement to a region/sub-region I had in mind, not just justifying a rail link to Stranraer (Cairnryan). Bi-modes would be more cost effective than electrification to Girvan and soldiering on with two fleets, facilities etc. Might as well put the stop blocks up at Girvan and save the re-investment south thereof. Also one could use bi-modes on the WHL and GSWR. Only when you've built the traffic up much further would you electrify.

 

[Class 170101]

Really, well they don't think about public transport links to Ireland?

The way STAG appraisal of trips to Ireland works is it looks at travel modes and journeys.

It will show that there are 350k pa flying from Glasgow, 350k pa flying from Edinburgh, 50k pa flying from Aberdeen, 90k pa coach and ferry, 10k pa rail sail via Ayr, 1k pa rail via Stranraer. (some guess work here but suspect these aren't far off)

So the priorities for improvement will be a shortlist of links to airports, facilities at coach stations, availability of coach services to Cairnryan and transfer times at Ayr.

In the longer term something like electrification to Girvan might help. But ferry passengers will never go via Stranraer again.

Does this not also depend upon environmental policy and its effects on airport expansion?

I would suggest a fixed link between Scotland and Ireland may be built if slots are required at Airports in Ireland and Scotland to be released from short haul to long haul flights.

 

[clc]

.

So could the new 2tph Cumbernauld services be dependent on Dalmeny Chord being built? Given Phil Verster's comments that not all the new services will commence immediately in 2018 and the fact that the Dalmeny Chord is proposed as an early CP6 project in the Scotland Route Study I wonder if we'll see statutory work on the chord restarting soon with construction then able to take place in early CP6 and the new services starting in December 2019 or 2020?

The original cost estimate for Dalmeny Chord was £175 million, so you'd be looking at over £200m now allowing for inflation:
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/p...&ReferenceNumbers=S4W-17248&ResultsPerPage=10

That's big money on top of committed schemes such as Montrose Basin, further phases of HML and Aberdeen - Inverness improvements and electrification of 100km per year. If your theory is correct it might explain the lack of commitment from the SNP to funding any new lines such as Levenmouth.