Huge Expansion in Scotrail services planned

[NotATrainspott]

So what is the planned Cumbernauld service now? Will the North Clyde line services continue forever, on addition to the Queen Street HL services? If so, that's excellent.

 

[clc]

So what is the planned Cumbernauld service now? Will the North Clyde line services continue forever, on addition to the Queen Street HL services? If so, that's excellent.

No, this service will cease.

 

[XC90]

Good. The reverse at Springburn slows the services and if its over 6 mins late the train is often terminated at Springburn anyway. Although I don't know how they will fit 4tph Glasgow - Cumbernauld without the North Clyde services reversing at Springburn.

 

[Altnabreac]

No, this service will cease.

I would say that's more a maybe.

The 2tph to Edinburgh will run from High Level but there's nothing here saying the Cumbernauld terminators won't continue to run with a reversal at Springburn.

In fact given the Dundee semi fast will be an extra service at Queen St High Level it seems more likely that keeping the Springburn reversal would be useful.

 

[ScotTrains]

I wish they'd open a station at Dundee Airport. The railway runs across the road from the entrance and with the new international flights starting a rail station here would be ideal. Dundee has suffered from a lack of rail infrastructure investment for a long time now. Very few people from Barry, Monifieth, Balmossie and Broughty Ferry use the train to commute into Dundee due to the lack of services. I'd like to see a frequent local all stopper service between Perth and Arbroath.

 

[Altnabreac]

I wish they'd open a station at Dundee Airport. The railway runs across the road from the entrance and with the new international flights starting a rail station here would be ideal. Dundee has suffered from a lack of rail infrastructure investment for a long time now. Very few people from Barry, Monifieth, Balmossie and Broughty Ferry use the train to commute into Dundee due to the lack of services. I'd like to see a frequent local all stopper service between Perth and Arbroath.

An increase from 2 flights a day to 3 flights a day is not going to justify an airport station.

New hourly Arbroath - Dundee and Dundee - Perth stopping services are exactly what this announcement is proposing. It does look however like they won't run through Dundee, at least initially, to avoid performance pollution on longer distance routes.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

An increase from 2 flights a day to 3 flights a day is not going to justify an airport station.

New hourly Arbroath - Dundee and Dundee - Perth stopping services are exactly what this announcement is proposing. It does look however like they won't run through Dundee, at least initially, to avoid performance pollution on longer distance routes.

Dundee, I don't even know where to begin.

It needs another pair of through platforms and it needs a pair of bay platforms, ideally one on either side of the station. I don't know how you would achieve any of that.

Electrification of the route without properly thinking about long term needs is going to be a bit of a waste of money.

 

[clc]

I would say that's more a maybe.

The 2tph to Edinburgh will run from High Level but there's nothing here saying the Cumbernauld terminators won't continue to run with a reversal at Springburn.

In fact given the Dundee semi fast will be an extra service at Queen St High Level it seems more likely that keeping the Springburn reversal would be useful.

I was going by page 153 of this document though I suppose the plans could have changed:

http://files.framedev.com/egip/9. Environmental Statement.pdf

8.9.28 Network Rail has confirmed that post-December 2018 the following changes should be assumed:

 All the Edinburgh-Glasgow trains become 8-carriage length Hitachi AT200 EMU trains. No change to service frequency;

 The trains which currently terminate at Dunblane and Alloa become 6-carriage length Hitachi AT200 trains. No change to service frequency; and

 The current Dalmuir – Cumbernauld EMU train service via Low Level will cease and be replaced with Cumbernauld – Queen Street High Level via Cowlairds Chord service and Dalmuir – Springburn via Low Level service. No change to service frequency.

 

[marks87]

It makes no sense to do this where there's only one operator. Why incentivise overcrowding stopping trains with long distance passengers, leaving your long distance 'Intercity' trains to carry fresh air?

Deutsche Bahn do it in Germany, where you pay more to travel on ICE than (I)RE. I think it's the same in a lot of other European countries.

Although I accept that other countries are bigger, and their InterCity trains do generally go a lot faster than the regional services.
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Dundee, I don't even know where to begin.

It needs another pair of through platforms and it needs a pair of bay platforms, ideally one on either side of the station. I don't know how you would achieve any of that.

If money were no object, there's plenty of space up in the carriage sidings where they could build a pair of terminal platforms, linked to the main station via a bridge.

Or if money were growing on trees, excavate under Riverside Drive and Greenmarket to build new through platforms facing platforms 1 and 4 respectively, along with a conversation of 2 and 3 into through platforms with all facilities moved into the new street-level concourse.

However, I'm not convinced Dundee is anywhere near capacity to warrant such major development. There's 2 bi-directional through platforms, 3 if you count P1 as two, and 2 terminal platforms. There would need to be a huge increase in services for capacity to become an issue.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Deutsche Bahn do it in Germany, where you pay more to travel on ICE than (I)RE. I think it's the same in a lot of other European countries.

It only really makes sense as a means of dissuading commuters from using InterCity trains in order that you don't have to provide huge amounts of extra capacity on the IC service (that itself runs empty for a large chunk of the run, e.g. London-Reading being full but Reading-Penzance not) when it is available on the parallel, slower regional service. Which is probably not the case here; the ICs will have a lot of capacity and those short flows aren't as prevolent.

 

[Altnabreac]

I was going by page 153 of this document though I suppose the plans could have changed:

http://files.framedev.com/egip/9. Environmental Statement.pdf

8.9.28 Network Rail has confirmed that post-December 2018 the following changes should be assumed:

 All the Edinburgh-Glasgow trains become 8-carriage length Hitachi AT200 EMU trains. No change to service frequency;

 The trains which currently terminate at Dunblane and Alloa become 6-carriage length Hitachi AT200 trains. No change to service frequency; and

 The current Dalmuir – Cumbernauld EMU train service via Low Level will cease and be replaced with Cumbernauld – Queen Street High Level via Cowlairds Chord service and Dalmuir – Springburn via Low Level service. No change to service frequency.

All sounds reasonable but the current service is 3tph so by definition the "No change to service frequency" bit has been superseded by the new 4tph plan.

I agree it would be better if all 4tph went into Queen St alongside the new 1tph semi fast to Dundee but that is an increase of 2tph on current plans and back to the same frequency that was proposed for QS High Level under the initial EGIP plans. At that point it was suggested that Anniesland services might need to be diverted so it's obviously tight running those extra 2tph.

It might be easier to timetable if the Dundee / Aberdeen services could use a grade separated Greenhill Junction which brings us back to the CP6 Infrastructure interventions identified in the Draft Route Study.

 

[najaB]

Dundee, I don't even know where to begin.

It needs another pair of through platforms and it needs a pair of bay platforms, ideally one on either side of the station. I don't know how you would achieve any of that.

Electrification of the route without properly thinking about long term needs is going to be a bit of a waste of money.

I agree with you on that north bay platforms would be nice, but I can't see the need for two additional through platforms.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

If money were no object, there's plenty of space up in the carriage sidings where they could build a pair of terminal platforms, linked to the main station via a bridge.

Or if money were growing on trees, excavate under Riverside Drive and Greenmarket to build new through platforms facing platforms 1 and 4 respectively, along with a conversation of 2 and 3 into through platforms with all facilities moved into the new street-level concourse.

However, I'm not convinced Dundee is anywhere near capacity to warrant such major development. There's 2 bi-directional through platforms, 3 if you count P1 as two, and 2 terminal platforms. There would need to be a huge increase in services for capacity to become an issue.

Just having a more serious think and review of the situation.

If Dunblane to Dundee via Perth electrification proceeds during CP6, it would be likely that the Perth to Dundee hourly service will be operated by an EMU, whilst the Dundee to Arbroath service will remain as a DMU.

The need for any additional through platform would only then become an issue if further electrification allows ScotRail to join the two services together, and they want to do so, creating a Perth to Arbroath service.

 

[najaB]

The need for any additional through platform would only then become an issue if further electrification allows ScotRail to join the two services together, and they want to do so, creating a Perth to Arbroath service.

If there really is a need for additional through platforms I'm sure it would be possible to do something with the existing loops.

 

[Mordac]

Ideally there will continue to be a call at Edinburgh Park!

Not only is it a major employment destination for many Stirling commuters - it's also the interchange for the Airport.

I think Edinburgh Gateway opening will supersede this.
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So with all of this, is there any word on the Fife loco hauled services? They can't possibly survive this, right?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So with all of this, is there any word on the Fife loco hauled services? They can't possibly survive this, right?

Class 170, possibly doubled up in the peaks, I guess.

No bad thing; the Scottish 170s are very comfortable and have excellent window views.

 

[Mordac]

Class 170, possibly doubled up in the peaks, I guess.

No bad thing; the Scottish 170s are very comfortable and have excellent window views.

About what I surmised. I know, they just don't seem that pleasant when you're on a packed to the gills Edinburgh to Glasgow train at rush hour, but if you're on a leisurely trip to Dundee they're way better than some people here give them credit for. I better get on one of the Fife circle locos while stocks last, though.

 

[ScotTrains]

The Turbostars will definitely be missed on the E to G route. The new class 385 mock-up has horrible seats in standard and First class is a bit of a joke. I do wish Scotrail had kept more Turbostars on their supposedly flagship route.

 

[Agent_c]

 The current Dalmuir – Cumbernauld EMU train service via Low Level will cease and be replaced with Cumbernauld – Queen Street High Level via Cowlairds Chord service and Dalmuir – Springburn via Low Level service. No change to service frequency.

So back to how it used to be a couple of years ago.

 

[clc]

I agree it would be better if all 4tph went into Queen St alongside the new 1tph semi fast to Dundee but that is an increase of 2tph on current plans and back to the same frequency that was proposed for QS High Level under the initial EGIP plans. At that point it was suggested that Anniesland services might need to be diverted so it's obviously tight running those extra 2tph.

It might be easier to timetable if the Dundee / Aberdeen services could use a grade separated Greenhill Junction which brings us back to the CP6 Infrastructure interventions identified in the Draft Route Study.

The north-south tunnel really would provide the optimum solution to so many issues wouldn't it?

 

[XC90]

Thinking outside the box - maybe 2 services from Glasgow central (high or low level) to Cumbernauld via kirkwood & Coatbridge central (1) and the other via Hamilton & Motherwell (2) as is now.

Plus the 2 from Queen street = 4 tph.

 

[cf111]

About what I surmised. I know, they just don't seem that pleasant when you're on a packed to the gills Edinburgh to Glasgow train at rush hour, but if you're on a leisurely trip to Dundee they're way better than some people here give them credit for. I better get on one of the Fife circle locos while stocks last, though.

I really quite like the 170s, the only issue I have is the door placement isn't great when you're sitting near a set in the winter but I think they're comfortable units.

 

[jopsuk]

The QS HL- Cumbernauld-Grahamston-Edinburgh service effectively kills the idea of Grangemouth station, yes? Not that it was ever particularly viable.

 

[Altnabreac]

The north-south tunnel really would provide the optimum solution to so many issues wouldn't it?

I really think more and more it is the elephant in the room.

Queen St Capacity, Central Capacity, Ayrshire increased frequencies, High Speed Rail access to Central, Cumbernauld increased frequencies.

The tunnel fixes all of these problems and enables an uplift to turn up and go frequencies (4tph+) on multiple routes (East Kilbride, Neilston, Newton, Cumbernauld, Maryhill.

I'll be interested to see how it develops alongside and complementing the High Speed Rail plans.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Turbostars will definitely be missed on the E to G route. The new class 385 mock-up has horrible seats in standard and First class is a bit of a joke. I do wish Scotrail had kept more Turbostars on their supposedly flagship route.

I wonder if something may be done about the use of Class 800 Standard seats in First Class on the 385s. I mentioned that they were inadequate, and the people there said that I was by no means the only one to say that.

The modified ironing boards (they are using a different squab than Southern do, and it is *much* more comfortable) were, OTOH, quite popular. I personally quite like them. And while I had concerns about the cantilevered seats drooping over time, I gave them a proper 18.5 stone seeing to (with the consultation woman looking on a little scared) and they showed no signs of it.

The window alignment is poor, but that aside I don't think they're terrible, though not as good as the truly excellent (slightly odd window setup aside) Class 380.

 

[XC90]

I wonder if something may be done about the use of Class 800 Standard seats in First Class on the 385s. I mentioned that they were inadequate, and the people there said that I was by no means the only one to say that.

The modified ironing boards (they are using a different squab than Southern do, and it is *much* more comfortable) were, OTOH, quite popular. I personally quite like them. And while I had concerns about the cantilevered seats drooping over time, I gave them a proper 18.5 stone seeing to (with the consultation woman looking on a little scared) and they showed no signs of it.

The window alignment is poor, but that aside I don't think they're terrible, though not as good as the truly excellent (slightly odd window setup aside) Class 380.

The seating position in the mock train isn't the final layout.

 

[clc]

I really think more and more it is the elephant in the room.

Queen St Capacity, Central Capacity, Ayrshire increased frequencies, High Speed Rail access to Central, Cumbernauld increased frequencies.

The tunnel fixes all of these problems and enables an uplift to turn up and go frequencies (4tph+) on multiple routes (East Kilbride, Neilston, Newton, Cumbernauld, Maryhill.

I'll be interested to see how it develops alongside and complementing the High Speed Rail plans.

And there'd still be enough spare capacity for new services such as Bridge of Weir and Renfrew, and the airport tram-train if it ever progresses.

As it happens, Scottish Water is currently boring a 3 mile tunnel under Glasgow:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-35743907

Lessons learned from this project could be useful.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The seating position in the mock train isn't the final layout.

Indeed not, but the mock does have the plans for the final layout printed out there, and the window alignment is in places dubious.

I think this probably comes down as ever to how priority seats are specified in law as a percentage of the normal pitch. A specified minimum pitch would be more sensible.

 

[najaB]

As it happens, Scottish Water is currently boring a 3 mile tunnel under Glasgow:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-35743907

Lessons learned from this project could be useful.

Three miles for £100M - if it was the railway it would be at least triple that cost. I think NR should contract for a sewer pipe and then run tracks through it when it's finished!

 

[Altnabreac]

So back to how it used to be a couple of years ago.

No.

• A few years ago it was 2tph from QS High Level (1 to Grahamston)
• Currently it is 1tph from QS High Level (to Grahamston), 2 tph from Queen St Low Level reversing at Springburn.
• EGIP environmental statement was proposing 3tph from QS High Level (1 to Grahamston)
• New proposal is for 4tph from QS (unclear whether all High Level) with 2tph to Grahamston.

So an increase each time with the key 4tph frequency being reached for Cumbernauld that might help get some people to transfer from Croy services.