Great Western Railway Future Stock

[edwin_m]

As Mintona says, all a bit fuzzy at the moment.
There was a plan to run a Swansea-Bath EMU service, offering same platform changes at Bath into the Pompeys (poss starting at TM) , and run the Tauntons separately or as throughs to Gloucester/Cheltenham instead of Cardiff. With the proposal to modify the Wales franchise, who knows what's actually going to happen.
As far as I am aware, the installation of a turn back at Bathampton loop is still going ahead, being done at the same time as the electrification work. Anyone heard any different on this one?

Bathampton was relaid during last summer's blockade so I assume they would have added the turnback then.

 

[keyhamtrain]

there is a debate on going about the new at300 not goiing into cornwall as curve at saltash is out of gauge also at devonpot station

 

[Philip Phlopp]

there is a debate on going about the new at300 not goiing into cornwall as curve at saltash is out of gauge also at devonpot station

It was always known gauge clearance works would be needed to allow the AT300 fleet to access Cornwall.

 

[TheKnightWho]

there is a debate on going about the new at300 not goiing into cornwall as curve at saltash is out of gauge also at devonpot station

This would make no sense, and Penzance is not losing its direct link.

 

[keyhamtrain]

there is not much they can do at saltash its a tight curve

 

[JN114]

there is not much they can do at saltash its a tight curve

Other stations on similar radius curves include Paddington and Bristol Temple Meads... Quick call a halt to the whole electrification programme as they're clearly insurmountable engineering challenges...

 

[455driver]

Why are people missing the bigger picture, when the 143,150/1 and 153s are sent off lease GWR will only be able to run 2 or 4 coach trains of 20 or 23m stock, at the moment a lot of the platforms can only take 3x20m coaches so either a lot of platforms are in need of extension or a lot of stations will be local door only which will eff the running times a treat.
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It was always known gauge clearance works would be needed to allow the AT300 fleet to access Cornwall.

Or order a fleet of trains that fit on the current network!

No I don't want to do that one again thanks!
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Other stations on similar radius curves include Paddington and Bristol Temple Meads... Quick call a halt to the whole electrification programme as they're clearly insurmountable engineering challenges...

Bristol TM is nothing like as curved as Saltash.

 

[fgwrich]

Why are people missing the bigger picture, when the 143,150/1 and 153s are sent off lease GWR will only be able to run 2 or 4 coach trains, at the moment a lot of the platforms can only take 3x20m coaches so either a lot of platforms are in need of extension or a lot of stations will be local door only which will eff the running times a treat.

Indeed! I'm still not fully convinced that 21 x 150 (/0+/2) will be enough to cover all the branches and Devon Metro network. Yes, the 158s are also supposed to be coming down to the west, but by the time you've split most of the 21 150s down to running in pairs - Devon Metro, Falmouth Branch, St Ives, it wont leave much slack in the fleet.

This assuming the original franchise extension plan still remains?
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Bristol TM is nothing like as curved as Saltash.

That curve actually starts on the Royal Albert Bridge, before widening out for the point in Saltash Station and continuing through. I'd like to hope that if there is an issue, it isn't starting on the bridge and requiring that to be modified. It also sounds like, if true, that Saltash could be facing further modifications to it's station - and probably loosing more of what is left of it's heritage.

 

[edwin_m]

Indeed! I'm still not fully convinced that 21 x 150 (/0+/2) will be enough to cover all the branches and Devon Metro network. Yes, the 158s are also supposed to be coming down to the west, but by the time you've split most of the 21 150s down to running in pairs - Devon Metro, Falmouth Branch, St Ives, it wont leave much slack in the fleet.

Couldn't they just insert half a 150/2 into another 150/2, just as they do with the 150/1s now?

 

[fgwrich]

Couldn't they just insert half a 150/2 into another 150/2, just as they do with the 150/1s now?

They could, but that would leave GW with 8x3 car, 1x2 car 150/2s and the two 150/0s. Which given that the fleet would have to cover Exmouth, Paington, Barnstaple, Gunnislake/Tavistock, Looe, Newquay, Falmouth - 2 units needed for the 2 tph service, and St Ives Branches really would be shooting your own foot.

The only way I really feel GW can operate all these services with 150/2s is if we get some back from either ATW or Northern in lure of all the 150/1s going up North.

 

[Sparks807Evo]

That really would leave them with little, next to no slack.

Bit of a shame GWR can't keep the 150/1s and do what LM did and reform them back into the hybrid 3 car units.

Also, if possible, would be better for conforming to the DDA requirements in regards to the toilet - lose far less seats potentially. Two car set capacity is going to decrease by a few and 4 car units as well will have collectvely lost them. 3 cars with one toilet would be a far better practical solution - (would require removing toilets from some cars) but hey, common sense, who needs it

 

[Clarence Yard]

There were enough units for the locals. The franchise plan had the following;

Cornish branches (winter) - 6 x 150/2 2 car diagrams. Exeter locals (excluding Barnstaple) - 5 x 150/2 4 car diagrams and 2 x 150/0 3 car diagrams. Barnstaple branch - 3 x 158/9 3 car diagrams.

Total diagram requirement for the 150/2 car sets - 16 from a fleet of 20. Summer extra diagrams pushed that up to 17 or 18.

GWR are now working out just how the electrification delays will affect this plan. Discussions with the DfT are ongoing.

 

[Rapidash]

One can only hope something can be arranged. The beefing up of the locals is pretty much the only benefit we're meant to see with electrification, down on the branches, at least until the AT300's appear occasionally.

I've seen both Patrick McLoughlin and Claire Perry down here experiencing the overcrowding on the Metro in the near past, so hopefully they'll remember us. Ha ha.

 

[Class 170101]

there is a debate on going about the new at300 not goiing into cornwall as curve at saltash is out of gauge also at devonpot station

This is why the AT300s are being built - to serve Devon and Cornwall to / from London

 

[northwichcat]

Indeed! I'm still not fully convinced that 21 x 150 (/0+/2) will be enough to cover all the branches and Devon Metro network. Yes, the 158s are also supposed to be coming down to the west, but by the time you've split most of the 21 150s down to running in pairs - Devon Metro, Falmouth Branch, St Ives, it wont leave much slack in the fleet.

This assuming the original franchise extension plan still remains?

Well if Arriva have signed a lease with the ROSCO then GWR/DfT may not have the option to go back on releasing the 150/1s unless it's agreed Northern will get something else but even then Northern need extra units before the end of 2017 so there's not much time to secure something else.

You may not like it but they'll be Northern 144s and 153s which should be off-lease in 2018 so those could provide extra capacity somewhere if the current plans are no longer fit for purpose.

 

[BestWestern]

Well if Arriva have signed a lease with the ROSCO then GWR/DfT may not have the option to go back on releasing the 150/1s unless it's agreed Northern will get something else but even then Northern need extra units before the end of 2017 so there's not much time to secure something else.

You may not like it but they'll be Northern 144s and 153s which should be off-lease in 2018 so those could provide extra capacity somewhere if the current plans are no longer fit for purpose.

144s would do very nicely for Severn Beach. The previous 143s were far better suited than the 150s which superseded them. Always the option of deploying un-modded 153s as Sprinter centre cars.

 

[northwichcat]

144s would do very nicely for Severn Beach. The previous 143s were far better suited than the 150s which superseded them. Always the option of deploying un-modded 153s as Sprinter centre cars.

For whoever gets in first there are 10 x 3 car sets available which are around the same length as a 2 car 156 or 158 opposed to the 2 car sets which are smaller than a 150.

 

[Parallel]

144s would do very nicely for Severn Beach. The previous 143s were far better suited than the 150s which superseded them. Always the option of deploying un-modded 153s as Sprinter centre cars.

I think 143s/144s are perfectly acceptable for relatively short branch lines services with frequent stops, or whereby the average passenger journey is fairly short, such as Exmouth, Severn Beach, local Bristol Parkway - Weston services or the proposed route to Portishead.

The issue is capacity as many local Bristol area services (If I remember correctly) ran with 1 x 143 but these days the Seven Beach Line in the morning peak uses hybrid three-car 150s and are very busy IIRC, so you'd probably need pacers doubled up most of the time!

If a couple of units were kept for Portishead (not necessarily pacers), I have no doubt that the line would re-open in less time. I've heard the traffic congestion on this side of Bristol is getting worse.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

What's the max line speed of the Marlow Branch? Could a Pacer be used on it without messing up the timetable in the section from Maidenhead and where it leaves the main line?

 

[leomartin125]

What's the max line speed of the Marlow Branch? Could a Pacer be used on it without messing up the timetable in the section from Maidenhead and where it leaves the main line?

I do belieive it's around 45-50 in some places, nowhere near enough to operate fast EMU stock. A four car 365 will probably be the traction once finally electrified. Same for Henley branch.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

I do belieive it's around 45-50 in some places, nowhere near enough to operate fast EMU stock. A four car 365 will probably be the traction once finally electrified. Same for Henley branch.

I don't think that a 365 would have any chance of fitting on the Marlow branch, given that a 2-car class 165 or 166 will literally only just fit into Bourne End

 

[Clarence Yard]

Quite apart from the curve out of Bourne End reducing wheel set life to naff all, the last thing you would do, in a period of great change, is introduce yet another traction type in the London area for people to learn and maintain.

The key date is December 2017. That is the date by which Northern really need the 150/1 units. That is also the date that, at present, NR look likely to have the wires up to Didcot, releasing the bulk of the required Turbos west.

The problem for Dec 2017 and Dec 2018 is likely to be Exeter, not Bristol. Retaining 143 units temporarily and 153 units for a bit longer will sort that out, the main issue being 153 availability due to LM requiring 6, the as yet unknown position re the EA franchise (possibly requiring more GW 153 sets) and the release profile of the Northern 17, all of which will be freed up sometime before 2019.

Add the possibility of short HST sets for the Bristol-Penzance corridor into the mix and it then becomes a question of how many cl.150/153 sets do you get rid of, not how many extra units do you need from elsewhere!

As I said earlier the DfT and GW are busy trying to sort out all the permutations now but extra Pacers into GW is not happening.

 

[Mikey C]

What's the max line speed of the Marlow Branch? Could a Pacer be used on it without messing up the timetable in the section from Maidenhead and where it leaves the main line?

I can just imagine the wheel noise as Pacers navigate the curves.

And the even louder voices of protest from angry locals

 

[edwin_m]

Presumably some of the 165/166 units will remain based at Reading (possibly returning to the main base at Bristol for maintenance) to cover the Gatwick service and things like Bedwyn shuttles, and one could be added to this fleet for Marlow.

 

[davetheguard]

Presumably some of the 165/166 units will remain based at Reading (possibly returning to the main base at Bristol for maintenance) to cover the Gatwick service and things like Bedwyn shuttles, and one could be added to this fleet for Marlow.

And two Turbos for Basingstoke (until electrification which has slipped to CP6, I think); and then there's the Greenford branch shuttle from West Ealing too (if it remains with Great Western).

Perhaps the old "Upper Triangle" fuelling point at Reading (beside the curve round to Reading West station) could re-open for the remaining Turbos, leaving the new depot for EMU's?

 

[FGW_DID]

Whatever routes require Turbos to be retained at Reading, these units will be serviced and maintained at Reading TCD.

So we are looking at dealing with 165/166, 365 and 387 units (and the 150/0 IF they stay).

 

[swt_passenger]

Perhaps the old "Upper Triangle" fuelling point at Reading (beside the curve round to Reading West station) could re-open for the remaining Turbos, leaving the new depot for EMU's?

Would need a lot more than 'reopening', I think.

Paul

 

[221129]

So we are looking at dealing with 165/166, 365 and 387 units (and the 150/0 IF they stay).

150/0s are going to Exeter?

 

[Sparks807Evo]

Very likely to - will stay with GWR and work the Exeter lines alongside the 150/2s and 158s that will move to there. Hence why 001 is being repainted (and hopefully refurbished).

 

[fgwrich]

Would need a lot more than 'reopening', I think.

Paul

Indeed I don't think there's much left up there now. What was left was in the process of becoming an NR depot for their track machines, but I can imagine that all the fueling equipment was removed when the new depot opened.

It has been talked about, that Bedwyn is likely to be reached by a 387 on Batteries. That's why the GW 387s were ordered with the similar batteries to that tried on the 379 trial unit. I suppose a Turbo could be retained for the Reading to Bedwyn services, but IIRC the through ones are set to be turned into 387 operated.