Great Western Railway Future Stock

[Class 170101]

Nope!
GWR test train, just like last weeks.

Seems an odd test train.

 

[backontrack]

Don't forget the bi-mode 802s that will run from London to Exeter and Penzance. Hull Trains are getting 5 of them too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_802

 

[455driver]

Seems an odd test train.

Last weeks and this weeks trains were to get some timing figures for Plymouth to Cardiff, the previous ones were to get timing figures for Penzance to Plymouth, I will let you work out what services they are looking at turning over to 2+4 or 2+5 HSTs, I will give you a clue, it doesn't involve Portsmouth!

Please note this isn't from anywhere official and is just me putting 2 and 2 together, plus a 'chat' with some very knowledgeable people.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Last weeks and this weeks trains were to get some timing figures for Plymouth to Cardiff, the previous ones were to get timing figures for Penzance to Plymouth, I will let you work out what services they are looking at turning over to 2+4 or 2+5 HSTs, I will give you a clue, it doesn't involve Portsmouth!

Please note this isn't from anywhere official and is just me putting 2 and 2 together, plus a 'chat' with some very knowledgeable people.

There was some chit chat doing the rounds about using HST sets (per Scotland, but without the modifications, under a derogation) to allow the Class 158 units to be cascaded to Northern, and then backfilling with Class 222s after MML electrification completion, but I can only think of a couple of the electric south east franchises which haven't been tipped for Class 222 operation.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

According to Rail 792 ( postal subscribers have this; the rest will find it in the newsagents on Wednesday ) this shortened HST plan is to cover the delay in cascading the 165s / 166s as the 143s and 150/1s are still leaving the franchise on the original schedule.

 

[BestWestern]

Must be a good chance of 143s staying a little longer then I'd have thought? And enough 'HST Lite' sets to cover the missing 150s. Are the 158s not still earmarked for Exeter?

 

[MatthewRead]

Must be a good chance of 143s staying a little longer then I'd have thought? And enough 'HST Lite' sets to cover the missing 150s. Are the 158s not still earmarked for Exeter?

We were promised 143s would be gone by 2017 but I don't think that will be happening GWR are looking through other possibilities such as the use of loco hauled stock or shortened HSTs

 

[TheKnightWho]

Some are going to Scotrail, the rest will be scrapped/disposed of

Or, quite likely, will go into preservation

 

[northwichcat]

Northern are reportedly taking most of the 150/1s before the December 17 timetable change. There's been suggestions LM might take some of the 153s to be able to release their remaining 150s but surely GWR can keep the 143s and the rest of the 153s as long as they like? In the case of some of the 143s they don't even need to agree a lease extension with Porterbrook as they are franchise assets, unless they've agreed to sell them?

 

[TheKnightWho]

Northern are reportedly taking most of the 150/1s before the December 17 timetable change. There's been suggestions LM might take some of the 153s to be able to release their remaining 150s but surely GWR can keep the 143s and the rest of the 153s as long as they like? In the case of some of the 143s they don't even need to agree a lease extension with Porterbrook as they are franchise assets, unless they've agreed to sell them?

Are the 165/6s being cascaded to other franchises? (Albeit from a quick search on Wikipedia), looking at the numbers, if 54/57 of the 165/6s can be cascaded, that would be enough to allow their entire fleet of 150s and 158s to be cascaded in turn. More than enough for Northern to take their 150/1s, whilst replacing the 8 143s and 14 153s (for example, with the remaining 150s). There would obviously need to be a bit of shuffling around.

This is probably optimistic in terms of how many 165/6s can be replaced 1-for-1, but these calculations have very large amounts of wriggle room: there's absolutely no need for GWR to keep any of their 143s or 153s, unless their Networkers are needed elsewhere.

 

[sprinterguy]

Are the 165/6s being cascaded to other franchises?

The 165s and 166s are being retained within the Great Western franchise, with reportedly 108 vehicles being reallocated to Bristol St. Phillips Marsh for the likes of the Cardiff - Portsmouth service.

As per the original plan, this allows the reallocation of the 158 and 150/2 fleets to Exeter, with the 158s operating Exeter/Plymouth - Penzance, Cardiff - Taunton and Barnstaple services and the 150/2s Exmouth - Paignton and the Cornish branches. The current debate is over the timing of this proposed internal cascade, now that the release of class 165/166 units from Thames Valley services will likely be delayed.

 

[Clarence Yard]

The GW 165 & 166 fleet are staying with GWR. Deployment in the West may be a bit different than first envisaged but they are not going out of the franchise.

The release of all the Northern 153 fleet by 31/12/2019 and their wish not to take any of the GW fleet has opened up some possibilities but it is early days yet and no definite fleet plan involving short term retained cl.143, any cl.153 (in single or 2 car formation) or 2+4 HST sets has yet been determined.

It's going to take a few months to sort it all out, probably not in finality until after the Anglia bid has been announced and the DMU stock required there is known.

 

[northwichcat]

Are the 165/6s being cascaded to other franchises? (Albeit from a quick search on Wikipedia), looking at the numbers, if 54/57 of the 165/6s can be cascaded, that would be enough to allow their entire fleet of 150s and 158s to be cascaded in turn. More than enough for Northern to take their 150/1s, whilst replacing the 8 143s and 14 153s (for example, with the remaining 150s). There would obviously need to be a bit of shuffling around.

This is probably optimistic in terms of how many 165/6s can be replaced 1-for-1, but these calculations have very large amounts of wriggle room: there's absolutely no need for GWR to keep any of their 143s or 153s, unless their Networkers are needed elsewhere.

The Direct Award agreement states the 143s, 150/1s and 153s will all be released while the 150/0s (not including the hybrid ones), 150/2s, 158s, 165s and 166s will be retained.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The Direct Award agreement states the 143s, 150/1s and 153s will all be released while the 150/0s (not including the hybrid ones), 150/2s, 158s, 165s and 166s will be retained.

The hybrid 3-car 150s are formed from a pair of 150/1s each with a 150/2 non-lavatory vehicle shoved in the middle. AIUI the plan is for one of these two vehicles to have a 2020-compliant toilet added and them to become a standard 150/2 once again. Each of them had their toilet-fitted counterparts written off in accidents back in the late 1980s/early 1990s so for a long time were used as centre-cars in the West Midlands.

 

[northwichcat]

The hybrid 3-car 150s are formed from a pair of 150/1s each with a 150/2 non-lavatory vehicle shoved in the middle. AIUI the plan is for one of these two vehicles to have a 2020-compliant toilet added and them to become a standard 150/2 once again. Each of them had their toilet-fitted counterparts written off in accidents back in the late 1980s/early 1990s so for a long time were used as centre-cars in the West Midlands.

Yes and the plan is for the 150/2 with the new toilet to remain with GWR but the 150/1s which currently have the 150/2 carriages inserted to leave the franchise.

 

[edwin_m]

Any plans to split the Cardiff-Portsmouth or Cardiff-Taunton at Bristol, and run the Cardiff legs as EMUs when electrification finally gets there? I think that was why 319s were going to be needed in Bristol, but perhaps it's more one for the replacement Wales franchise.

 

[Rapidash]

I'm kind of sad the 150/1 are off. I know many here don't like 3 -2 seating, but personally, as someone who uses them in the peaks in and out of Exeter, they are a damn sight better than the single Pacers. Seats for the majority, huzzah!

Don't suppose those shortened HST'S can manage the hill between St Davids and Central can they? Would make for a grand crowd buster in the evenings! (Wanders off to Narnia again)

 

[northwichcat]

Seats for the majority, huzzah!

Maybe not for much longer once they get the new toilets: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=126071

I can only spot 9 seats in that part of the carriage.

 

[Rapidash]

Maybe not for much longer once they get the new toilets: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=126071

I can only spot 9 seats in that part of the carriage.

I'll stick my neck out and say it's still better than a Pacer. Plenty of standing space at any rate!

 

[northwichcat]

I'll stick my neck out and say it's still better than a Pacer.

Agreed and while c.150 engines are noisy, earplugs aren't required for going around bends.

 

[Mintona]

Any plans to split the Cardiff-Portsmouth or Cardiff-Taunton at Bristol, and run the Cardiff legs as EMUs when electrification finally gets there? I think that was why 319s were going to be needed in Bristol, but perhaps it's more one for the replacement Wales franchise.

Not at present. There are some plans for both of those services, but it's all very 'up in the air' at the moment.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Or, quite likely, will go into preservation

I can't see more than 3 or 4 trains in preservation. The 125 group will certainly take a train and probably will be after 43002 and 43003. I'm also pretty sure that the 125 group's set will be returned to BR condition (Valenta engines and original head/tail lamps)

Network Rail may well take another power car to give 2 spares for the NMT, and other TOCs (VTEC, EMT, GC, XC) may also take a power car or 2 on short term lease as spares.

The rest, after ScotRail have had their pick of the bunch are likely to feel the warm breath of Booth's cutting torch.

 

[43096]

Don't suppose those shortened HST'S can manage the hill between St Davids and Central can they? Would make for a grand crowd buster in the evenings! (Wanders off to Narnia again)

A full length 2+8 HST can manage that route...

 

[Rapidash]

A full length 2+8 HST can manage that route...

You say that, but I've seen them struggle, and even stop halfway between the two stations due to not having a decent run up. During the diversion last year, I saw it happen twice.

It was a bit like watching a beached whale flail around looking for a solution. Similar noise as well

 

[CC 72100]

You say that, but I've seen them struggle, and even stop halfway between the two stations due to not having a decent run up. During the diversion last year, I saw it happen twice.

I remember that day very well. Spent about 45 minutes outside Exeter Central. Low power on one of the power cars, back in Feb' 15. Either 43151 or 43153 was one of the culprits.

Under normal conditions with both power cars on fine form then you don't get any major issues.

 

[Parallel]

I understand it's not all under FGW/GWR's control but with how stretched the west fleet is, I hope stock will be considered for additional future Devon Metro services (Axminster, Okehampton) and Bristol area services (Portishead, other potentional Bristol area re-openings) as well as other service frequency enhancements and capacity where needed (within reason).

The only franchise I can see taking on the GWR 143s will be ATW for Valleys/South Wales strengthening. And to be fair, 8 additional 143s would make a big difference. The only other logical idea would be for them to go to Northern short term to replace 8 of the worst 142s, but I can't see that happening. It seems a shame if the GWR 143s end up the first pacers to be scrapped, as they are well looked after.

The 153s I'm not sure, many operators use them (ATW, Northern, LM, EMT etc) so they could end up anywhere!

I can see the 150/1s going to Northern, but I think Northern will be surprised with the state of some of them when they arrive!

 

[northwichcat]

The 153s I'm not sure, many operators use them (ATW, Northern, LM, EMT etc) so they could end up anywhere!

I can see the 150/1s going to Northern, but I think Northern will be surprised with the state of some of them when they arrive!

Arriva's fleet plan for Northern apparently involves taking on all the GWR 150/1s but involves releasing all the 153s in the current fleet, alongside the 142s and 144s. They are supposed to fully refurbish older trains that aren't being replaced but what operators and DfT think is a full refurbishment and what passengers think may not be same thing.

Arriva have apparently secured 5 of the 10 x 156s which Scotrail are releasing, which would leave enough spare for Anglia to replace their 153s with 156s.

LM are apparently going to take on 6 cascaded 153s and release their 150/1s to Northern, but whether LM will be need 153s once the LO 172s become available is a different question.

 

[anthony263]

I wont be surprised if the GWR/Northern class 143/144's end up with ATW on the valley lines network to provide additional capacity and allow atw's 142's to be scrapped.

The LO class 172's I think would be ideal with Chiltern to improve their local service out of Marylebone rather than going to London Midland.

If paths were available particulary during peak hours you could do with 3 or 4tph between Cardiff & Bristol TM. EMU's could be used on a local stopping service between the two cities allowing the Portsmouth Hbr/Taunton services to be sped up by skipping Patchway and Pilling services would still need to serve Severn Tunnel Jct and Filton as both are important junctions & interchanges between services

 

[D6975]

Any plans to split the Cardiff-Portsmouth or Cardiff-Taunton at Bristol, and run the Cardiff legs as EMUs when electrification finally gets there? I think that was why 319s were going to be needed in Bristol, but perhaps it's more one for the replacement Wales franchise.

As Mintona says, all a bit fuzzy at the moment.
There was a plan to run a Swansea-Bath EMU service, offering same platform changes at Bath into the Pompeys (poss starting at TM) , and run the Tauntons separately or as throughs to Gloucester/Cheltenham instead of Cardiff. With the proposal to modify the Wales franchise, who knows what's actually going to happen.
As far as I am aware, the installation of a turn back at Bathampton loop is still going ahead, being done at the same time as the electrification work. Anyone heard any different on this one?

 

[Mintona]

No trains stop at Pilning on weekday anyway. I can't imagine GWR will take on a fleet of 4 EMUs with nowhere to stable them overnight to operate an additional peak service.