Class 180's to.....Northern?

[1D53]

Ok - assume Northern do get them. Aren't they only available for a year lease anyway?

Northern would be better concentrating on improving their exisiting rolling stock, which we're going to be stuck with for a good 10 years to come, rather than getting rejected trains with questionable reliability, excessive capacity and increased costs to the company and subsequently the passenger.

They are available until late 2010 - when they should in theory go to NXEC or First Harrogate etc. Nobody else wants them for a such a short time.

The move is to cover for the extra 158's with FSR that aren't coming back until Airdrie - Bathgate reopens and also to allow for Northern units (142's for example) to be refreshed/refurbed/repainted.

Hopefully it will happen, certainly moves and plans have been made to improve things by using these 180's.

 

[P156KWJ]

142s being refurbed? Thought they were keeping them trashed until they are going to be scrapped or preserved, because I had heard that Northern are supposed to be getting class 172s to replace them?

 

[Mintona]

Northern should be taking 3. Tests have been taken at Newton Heath and Blackpool to see if they could handle 180s, and they were a success.

 

[alex57601]

142s being refurbed? Thought they were keeping them trashed until they are going to be scrapped or preserved, because I had heard that Northern are supposed to be getting class 172s to replace them?

They haven't been allocated 172s at all. They have been allocated a new-build of DMUs so it can be anything really...even an all-new DMU class.

 

[notaspotter]

Care to quote a reliable source?

The source comes direct from Manchester Victoria since I am a driver there.
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What's this about Huddersfield-Blackpool? Blackpool-Manchester's don't carry on to Huddersfield.

From December Blackpool will no longer go through to Buxton, they are being diverted through Manchester Victoria to Huddersfield. This is to free up space South of Piccadilly. These services are from December, not saying the 180's are running from December, but they are coming and training for traction starts soon.
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Hmm, I don't think so...

1st post you made, and probably you're last...

Sorry to dissapoint ? Only reason that I stumbles across this forum and found this topic, is I heard how poor reliability is for the 180's, wanted to check this out, so thought I would shed somelight what we have been told at Victoria. 180's are coming to Manchester with Northern, along with all new unit class to replace 142's, when the latter happens not too sure.

 

[First class]

The source comes direct from Manchester Victoria since I am a driver there.
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From December Blackpool will no longer go through to Buxton, they are being diverted through Manchester Victoria to Huddersfield. This is to free up space South of Piccadilly. These services are from December, not saying the 180's are running from December, but they are coming and training for traction starts soon.
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Sorry to dissapoint ? Only reason that I stumbles across this forum and found this topic, is I heard how poor reliability is for the 180's, wanted to check this out, so thought I would shed somelight what we have been told at Victoria. 180's are coming to Manchester with Northern, along with all new unit class to replace 142's, when the latter happens not too sure.

Apologies if you are right then...

Even so, you were obviously questioning the reliability- my problem is exactly that. Northern struggle with reliability on many of their routes, and adding this rolling stock won't help them out.

I am aware of the route changes being made, but it would be very poor of Northern to run these.

Even basic things like checking tickets is made worse. When they actually get round to it, it can take 10mins to do a staffed station route on a 156. How exactly are they going to manage tickets on a larger 180??

There are other Northern routes that could benefit from this, i.e. Liverpool-Manchester Airport, Liverpool - Blackpool, sorry to keep repeating Liverpool, but it seems that all the TOCs seem to favour Manchester, Virgin is a particularly bad one of that...
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142s being refurbed? Thought they were keeping them trashed until they are going to be scrapped or preserved, because I had heard that Northern are supposed to be getting class 172s to replace them?

Just spotted your comment there about 172s...

Nothing is confirmed with them, and they might not even be in the picture, but would be quite a nice difference versus a 142...

Imagine Northern with 158s, 172s and 180s... sounds good to me :grin:

 

[bluenoxid]

Just spotted your comment there about 172s...

Nothing is confirmed with them, and they might not even be in the picture, but would be quite a nice difference versus a 142...

Imagine Northern with 158s, 172s and 180s... sounds good to me :grin:

150's, 156's, 155's and 153's plus their electric fleet.

I can assure you that whilst there are a few unfeasibles the ticket checking thing is pretty obvious. They run 4 car trains already on some routes (East Side Electrics and 2 x DMU's) so an additional car is not going to be too much more of a burden. The guards are just going to have to get fitter and with Gold Medals in Beijing, the next 200m Gold in London could just be a Vic Guard

The 180's aren't too bad. Have you seen the 142 reliability levels?

And on the livery front, they are actually doing a good job with Northern Spirit and NW Goldstar nearly extinct. Silver and CT just remains on a number of 158's. First Livery (156, 323) and Arriva (142) seems to be not budging as is Merseyrail (142)

 

[adambro]

Until I see some hard evidence that Northern are getting 180s then I'm afraid I will remain doubtful.

 

[P156KWJ]

The source comes direct from Manchester Victoria since I am a driver there.
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From December Blackpool will no longer go through to Buxton, they are being diverted through Manchester Victoria to Huddersfield. This is to free up space South of Piccadilly. These services are from December, not saying the 180's are running from December, but they are coming and training for traction starts soon.
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Sorry to dissapoint ? Only reason that I stumbles across this forum and found this topic, is I heard how poor reliability is for the 180's, wanted to check this out, so thought I would shed somelight what we have been told at Victoria. 180's are coming to Manchester with Northern, along with all new unit class to replace 142's, when the latter happens not too sure.

how will it free up space south of piccadilly not going through to Buxton? The Buxton trains still have to operate, will the Buxton ones only run as far as Stockport, or Piccadilly or Chorley?

 

[Philip]

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From December Blackpool will no longer go through to Buxton, they are being diverted through Manchester Victoria to Huddersfield. This is to free up space South of Piccadilly. These services are from December, not saying the 180's are running from December, but they are coming and training for traction starts soon.
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I knew about them running to Victoria, but first I've heard they're going to extend to Huddersfield. Will all of them carry on to Huddersfield or just certain peak hour ones?

Do you know which 180's are coming to Northern and if they'll cover all Blackpool diagrams?

 

[notaspotter]

how will it free up space south of piccadilly not going through to Buxton? The Buxton trains still have to operate, will the Buxton ones only run as far as Stockport, or Piccadilly or Chorley?

This is something to do with Virgin and their new timetable, how Buxton trains will operate, I do not know, obviously they will still have a service to Manchester.
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I knew about them running to Victoria, but first I've heard they're going to extend to Huddersfield. Will all of them carry on to Huddersfield or just certain peak hour ones?

Do you know which 180's are coming to Northern and if they'll cover all Blackpool diagrams?

Again, not sure of exact details, but have been told that the 180's will be put on Blackpool to Huddersfield via Manchester Victoria, the main reason for this is that if they fail, they are on the same routes as a 185's and if they need to assist failed unit, these can do so.

 

[bluenoxid]

180's and 185's have different couplings IIRC and they won't mate up without difficulty. They have been proposed for that route for a reason but it isn't that.

 

[notaspotter]

Until I see some hard evidence that Northern are getting 180s then I'm afraid I will remain doubtful.

Trust me they are coming, the only hold up at the moment is something to do with the doors being opened by the driver, which is not part our agreement with Northern, and something the guards will not be happy about.

 

[1D53]

how will it free up space south of piccadilly not going through to Buxton? The Buxton trains still have to operate, will the Buxton ones only run as far as Stockport, or Piccadilly or Chorley?

It will in theory improve reliability as services should leave Picc on time, it also relieves congestion through the through Platforms at Picc and through to Deansgate. If an ex Blackpool heading to Buxton is 3 mins late at Salford it can be as much as ten down leaving Picc hence causing delays.

[/4]

 

[notaspotter]

180's and 185's have different couplings IIRC and they won't mate up without difficulty. They have been proposed for that route for a reason but it isn't that.

That's all that has been said at Vic, me I know nothing about either unit, so I can't say. At first it was mentioned how the line speed after Standedge is 85mph, but if that was the case, 158's could do the job.

 

[bluenoxid]

Don't think about the speed, think about the capacity.

 

[notaspotter]

Don't think about the speed, think about the capacity.

Capacity can be an issue, for Northern. We will see what happens when they arrive, issues to be sorted first I believe.

 

[P156KWJ]

We want the 180s!! As rubbish as they are we need them! Liverpool-Norwich is now a shambles seeing as quite a few 158s are out of service (783 being refurbished, another one cab window smashed, 856 crash damage!) it's getting so bad, that 153355 was used on a Liverpool service yesterday... can trains get any shorter?? hock:

 

[1D53]

But Norwich to Liverpool should be getting 222's anyway!

 

[Mintona]

We want the 180s!! As rubbish as they are we need them! Liverpool-Norwich is now a shambles seeing as quite a few 158s are out of service (783 being refurbished, another one cab window smashed, 856 crash damage!) it's getting so bad, that 153355 was used on a Liverpool service yesterday... can trains get any shorter?? hock:

In what way are "you" EMT? When you say "we", do you mean you work for EMT and have inside knowledge this is the plan, or are you simply an enthusiast who lives somewhere within the EMT network who wants something different to take photos of?

 

[First class]

In what way are "you" EMT? When you say "we", do you mean you work for EMT and have inside knowledge this is the plan, or are you simply an enthusiast who lives somewhere within the EMT network who wants something different to take photos of?

Bit harsh...

Does it really matter? After all the 180s would provide a lot more capacity and certainly a more comfortable journey.

In regard to the 222s I'm not sure Liverpool - Norwich are actually getting them. A 222 visited Liverpool purely for route authorisation so in the event they are short of stock, a 222 can be deployed.

This is supposed to be about NORTHERN...

 

[Mintona]

Bit harsh...

Does it really matter? After all the 180s would provide a lot more capacity and certainly a more comfortable journey.

In regard to the 222s I'm not sure Liverpool - Norwich are actually getting them. A 222 visited Liverpool purely for route authorisation so in the event they are short of stock, a 222 can be deployed.

This is supposed to be about NORTHERN...

Passengers being left on the platforms at Manchester Victoria during the peaks is the norm. I know EMT services to Liverpool get busy, but is it the norm for passengers to get left behind? 180s to Northern will free up 142s, 150s and 156s to strengthen other services ie. Rochdale and Blackburn.

 

[First class]

Passengers being left on the platforms at Manchester Victoria during the peaks is the norm. I know EMT services to Liverpool get busy, but is it the norm for passengers to get left behind? 180s to Northern will free up 142s, 150s and 156s to strengthen other services ie. Rochdale and Blackburn.

Yes- it can be quite normal for passengers to be unable to board the Liv-Norwich, especially around Sheffield. Passengers at Man Vic can easily get to Piccadilly without any problem. They can get 185s there. Manchester also has a London pendolino every 30minutes, a much newer fleet and generally improved services.

Just because some of your services are busier, does not mean they are more important.

A class 153 was used on a Liverpool-Noriwch service recently, now you are not telling me that is reasonable...

You might want to speak to people in Chester who have far less frequent trains to Manchester via Stockport, who have a 142 each day, and by the 2/3rd stops, there is no room for a good hour.

The 180s are a temporary measure until Northern put 2-car 158s, but probably 156s on that line, so your problem is only solved for a year...

180s also have an extremely poor reliability rate, so although you may think they can improve a Northern service, I guarantee instead of some passengers being left behind, 5 carriages of passengers will be stuck in the middle of the track waiting for a rescue train from god knows where to come and shunt you out the way.

Manchester should not keep getting all the new trains and routes, there are actually places outside the city that need much more improvement.

 

[1D53]

In regard to the 222s I'm not sure Liverpool - Norwich are actually getting them. A 222 visited Liverpool purely for route authorisation so in the event they are short of stock, a 222 can be deployed.

They will be visiting once the extra 222's from Hull Trains arrive, once they have a full allocation of 180's.

 

[First class]

They will be visiting once the extra 222's from Hull Trains arrive, once they have a full allocation of 180's.

Do you have a source for this, or is it speculation??

 

[1D53]

Do you have a source for this, or is it speculation??

I have heard from a number of people close to HT. Once they have got the full alloction of 180's for Hull they have no need for the 3 (plus one being repaired) 222's. Being a small fleet they will be intergrated into a larger 222 fleet elsewhere rather than them making a small fleet within another toc.

 

[Pumbaa]

I have heard from a number of people close to HT. Once they have got the full alloction of 180's for Hull they have no need for the 3 (plus one being repaired) 222's. Being a small fleet they will be intergrated into a larger 222 fleet elsewhere rather than them making a small fleet within another toc.

On DafTs website, in the track Access Application thingy that Hull Trains submitted for their new routes (to Harrogate and Grimsby) they wanted clearance for both 180s and 222s, in the hope that they would still use 222s to Hull, including 03 once it's damaged car is replaced, with the 180s on as primary motive power to Harrogate and beyond.

I'll try and find a link...

Found it!

 

[class 313]

Keep them off EMT 8)

 

[devon_metro]

180s should be on high speed routes. XC (if 180s were cleared (which they arent)) would be ideal, or alternatively Virmin for Holyhead runs meaning Cross Country could get some much needed capacity.

 

[northerndan]

Northern are indeed getting class 180's. There is still some uncertainty around the date at which thy will commence service under northern.

It wont be in this year as there are some modifications that need to be completed before then can go into service.

Just because a train can travel at 125 mph doesn't mean that it can't travel on any other route's.