c2c more stock

[chris11256]

It's been confirmed by c2c that they've got principal agreement with another TOC to lease 2 5 carriage units.

Any ideas what these could be? All I can think off is the 360's on Heathrow Connect as 442s are 3rd rail. A hint provided by delivery director was the units have an airport connection. Could be some 377s?

 

[F Great Eastern]

Has to be the 360s I guess.

 

[Domh245]

There was speculation earlier that it was related to the 387s, so it may be the case that FGW take on the 387s, sublease/use these to operate the HEx services, releasing some 360s for c2c

 

[Dave1987]

For that quick has to be something broadly similar so drivers sign them. Otherwise drivers would need training and brake handling which takes time.

 

[chris11256]

Aparantly c2c get the units in May.

 

[Nym]

If it's quick then my money would be on 377/6 or 377/7 from Southern being covered by extra Thameslink stock?

 

[Kite159]

If it's quick then my money would be on 377/6 or 377/7 from Southern being covered by extra Thameslink stock?

Won't be the 377/6s any time soon.

My money will be on the 387/1s borrowed from GWR, as unless the bay platform at West Ealing has been completed to allow the Greenford service to be run as West Ealing - Greenford (and hence the path from Paddington - West Ealing being used by a 387 on a Paddington - Hayes service), they won't have much use

 

[theblackwatch]

Won't be the 377/6s any time soon.

My money will be on the 387/1s borrowed from GWR

The first 387/1s are due to be released by GTR at the end of March (6 sets) and another 4 at the end of April, so that would certainly fit in with the timescales.

 

[ScotGG]

Good job as badly needed, though we can add it to Southern, SWT, Thameslink, London Overground and First Great Western when it comes to TOCs serving London that have very recently received additional stock or have confirmed plans. Southeastern passengers meanwhile twiddle their thumbs.

 

[swt_passenger]

Heathrow Connect units need GW ATP don't they, because the Heathrow branch doesn't have TPWS. That would suggest 360s from HConn won't be the answer.

Will have to be a different 5 car AC EMU, assuming the detail of the first post is correct as 387s aren't 5 car...

 

[47802]

If they are 5 car as stated then surely it has to be 377/7 then.

 

[HSTEd]

At some point it might be worthwhile ordering a new fleet for c2c (so they keep a uniform one) and kicking the units to Northern/ATW as replacements for their soon to be acquired pre privatisation stock.

 

[D365]

At some point it might be worthwhile ordering a new fleet for c2c (so they keep a uniform one) and kicking the units to Northern/ATW as replacements for their soon to be acquired pre privatisation stock.

Surely would be more straightforward/cost-effective to pass on the 375/6s and give Southeastern back some 365s

 

[SpacePhoenix]

If it had been 4 car units then class 379's from AGA might have been a possibility with the 360s from Heathrow going there as it would eliminate a microfleet (apart from not having TPWS equipment - would there be any other technical differences between them and AGA's current 360s?

Would the installation of TPWS on the Heathrow 360s be considered a major job where stuff has to be removed/stripped down to gain access for installing bits?

 

[edwin_m]

If it had been 4 car units then class 379's from AGA might have been a possibility with the 360s from Heathrow going there as it would eliminate a microfleet (apart from not having TPWS equipment - would there be any other technical differences between them and AGA's current 360s?

Would the installation of TPWS on the Heathrow 360s be considered a major job where stuff has to be removed/stripped down to gain access for installing bits?

I'm rather surprised if they don't have it already. But the similar units on AGA have TPWS so it's probably just a question of replicating that, unless the ATP or some other different equipment gets in the way.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

I'm rather surprised if they don't have it already. But the similar units on AGA have TPWS so it's probably just a question of replicating that, unless the ATP or some other different equipment gets in the way.

Looks like they do have TPWS fitted

http://www.dawlishtrains.com/uk-emu-cabs-3xxx.html

The TPWS is visible in the photo so it must be the actual Heathrow line track that doesn't have the TPWS fitted

 

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Loco-hauled 442s?

Hat, coat, etc

 

[colchesterken]

What about the 317 s that AGA returned when they took over

Have they now all been taken into service, I read that one unit will do liv st to Ips to fill in for refurbishment of 321s is that correct?

 

[chris11256]

What about the 317 s that AGA returned when they took over

Have they now all been taken into service, I read that one unit will do liv st to Ips to fill in for refurbishment of 321s is that correct?

We were told at Passenger Panel yesterday that they will be two 5 carriage units.

 

[JN114]

So we've established that they need to be 5 car, AC capable units. This leave 3, modification-free options available - 360/2s, 377/7s and 378/2s

While the impending introduction of 387s to GW could theoretically trigger a cascade from connect - the Heathrow branch is not TPWS fitted (GW-ATP is considered the superior system, and is fully fitted on the branch) - as such while the 360/2s could operate away from the GWML, there would be nothing to replace them with.

Fleet requirements, also mean it's unlikely that any 378s could be released from London Overground.

377/7s at Southern however may just be do-able. Either holding onto 442s a little longer, or temporarily diverting off lease TL 387/1s would allow West London Line services to be 387 operated, freeing up 377/7s to go to c2c.

 

[47802]

So we've established that they need to be 5 car, AC capable units. This leave 3, modification-free options available - 360/2s, 377/7s and 378/2s

While the impending introduction of 387s to GW could theoretically trigger a cascade from connect - the Heathrow branch is not TPWS fitted (GW-ATP is considered the superior system, and is fully fitted on the branch) - as such while the 360/2s could operate away from the GWML, there would be nothing to replace them with.

Fleet requirements, also mean it's unlikely that any 378s could be released from London Overground.

377/7s at Southern however may just be do-able. Either holding onto 442s a little longer, or temporarily diverting off lease TL 387/1s would allow West London Line services to be 387 operated, freeing up 377/7s to go to c2c.

I would think its more than do-able plenty of new stock coming to GTR from 2 sources so should be quite feasible to juggle things around a bit even if means keeping a few older trains a bit longer plus of course reasonably similar to C2C existing stock unlike 360's

 

[swt_passenger]

If it had been 4 car units then class 379's from AGA might have been a possibility with the 360s from Heathrow going there as it would eliminate a microfleet (apart from not having TPWS equipment - would there be any other technical differences between them and AGA's current 360s?

Would the installation of TPWS on the Heathrow 360s be considered a major job where stuff has to be removed/stripped down to gain access for installing bits?

Whether the 360s have TPWS equipment fitted or not isn't the issue, if you want to move them somewhere else as proposed by earlier posts you have to replace them with another suitable EMU already fitted with GW ATP, and that system is obsolete. That's why NR/HAL have a big issue about fitting a temporary protections system to the branch for the start of Crossrail, but before ETCS is fitted.

 

[Dave1987]

I would think its more than do-able plenty of new stock coming to GTR from 2 sources so should be quite feasible to juggle things around a bit even if means keeping a few older trains a bit longer plus of course reasonably similar to C2C existing stock unlike 360's

Exactly, can't imagine they will get a few units that drivers don't sign. What would be the point of have a few units that require drivers to be taken off roster to be trained on them? The only other way would be to train a handful of drivers but then those drivers are stuck doing the diagrams that involve those trains. If the trains they have got in are broadly similar it will only require a brief on the differences which can easily be distributed in a signing on point.

 

[andyb2706]

To put my two pennyworth in if the 2 units are 5 cars with airport visits it can only be one of three types. 360/2, 377/6 or 377/7, however they have already stated that they will be in service this May which means a quick turn around for the drivers so it must be something similr. Seeing that both the 357 and 377 are Electrostar family trains this would seem the obvious choice. Also are 357 compatible with the 377?

 

[D365]

Would the installation of TPWS on the Heathrow 360s be considered a major job where stuff has to be removed/stripped down to gain access for installing bits?

I was wondering when the next time that you suggest strippong down a unit would be
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Seeing that both the 357 and 377 are Electrostar family trains this would seem the obvious choice. Also are 357 compatible with the 377?

As far as I am aware, Electrostars built after 2009 (excluding Class 378?) are not compatible with Electrostars built before 2009. But as you say, it makes training a lot more straightforward.

 

[chris11256]

377s would be a popular choice. People have been asking about interunit gangways for a while.

 

[87015]

Could well be easier to do a longer conversion course for drivers than get agreement for a different type of DOO operation (ie 377) in the current climate.

 

[chris11256]

Could well be easier to do a longer conversion course for drivers than get agreement for a different type of DOO operation (ie 377) in the current climate.

I'm not quite sure 377's would be compatible with the current positioning of c2c DOO equipment anyway. It's not positioned for 5/10 carriage trains.

 

[Domh245]

I'm not quite sure 377's would be compatible with the current positioning of c2c DOO equipment anyway. It's not positioned for 5/10 carriage trains.

377s have internal monitors and bodyside cameras for DOO operation

 

[D365]

My feeling is a guard would be used, as was the case when 321s were hired in. If the on-train CCTV equipment is not suitable.