Inter City 225 -v- Pendolino: your views as a passenger?

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed. And it's telling that both Chiltern and EMT use the original IC70 seat design.

Telling of what? That both are too cheap to fit a quality modern seat? The IC70 is terrible.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Telling of what? That both are too cheap to fit a quality modern seat? The IC70 is terrible.

The Chiltern ones have been given extra padding; they're extremely comfortable.

 

[ainsworth74]

The Chiltern ones have been given extra padding; they're extremely comfortable.

In your opinion...

 

[yorksrob]

Telling of what? That both are too cheap to fit a quality modern seat? The IC70 is terrible.

Telling that they've got taste - I.e in choosing a pre-existing seat with decent padding rather than dreadful modern tat.

 

[cjmillsnun]

Telling of what? That both are too cheap to fit a quality modern seat? The IC70 is terrible.

Seating is very subjective. I find IC70s comfortable others don't.

 

[43096]

Telling that they've got taste - I.e in choosing a pre-existing seat with decent padding rather than dreadful modern tat.

Which was certainly the case for EMT. I was told by a senior EMT person "Why would we want to change the seats? They're more comfortable than anything newer."

 

[yorksrob]

Which was certainly the case for EMT. I was told by a senior EMT person "Why would we want to change the seats? They're more comfortable than anything newer."

Spot on. They know their stuff. And as a regular MML traveller, if the HST's end up on there a bit longer than expected, I won't be weeping.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Chiltern ones have been given extra padding; they're extremely comfortable.

They would be were it not for the stupid armrests.

 

[87015]

They would be were it not for the stupid armrests.

Well below par as dentist chair armrests are you've got to be pretty over-large not to fit between them tbh. Still far better than most with moveable ones - the seat is far more important than the arm rest.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Spot on. They know their stuff. And as a regular MML traveller, if the HST's end up on there a bit longer than expected, I won't be weeping.

So why don't Meridians have the same style of seating if East Midlands Trains think its so great? I suspect the real reason why they haven't replaced them is down to cost.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Hmm yes, those advantages that a Pendolino has over a Mk3. Sorry Richmond Commuter, but I can't say as I've ever noticed them myself!

Other than much improved safety features, much better external doors, quieter vestibules and in terms of the WCML able to run at greater speeds.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well below par as dentist chair armrests are you've got to be pretty over-large not to fit between them tbh. Still far better than most with moveable ones - the seat is far more important than the arm rest.

I am quite big, to be fair (but no lardier than the average middle aged bloke) - but because I have cyclists legs they force my knees forward into the table supports on the seat in front. Horrible things.

I didn't mind the Mk2 variant that used the same cushion but omitted the centre armrest, but my favourite UK rail seat at present is the fGW tombstone.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Other than much improved safety features, much better external doors, quieter vestibules and in terms of the WCML able to run at greater speeds.

Add to that vastly better ride than Mk3 side to side sway or Mk2 bounce. Not as good as the true benchmark, though - the 158.

 

[childwallblues]

In your opinion...

Yes but they still retain the fixed armrest.

 

[yorksrob]

So why don't Meridians have the same style of seating if East Midlands Trains think its so great? I suspect the real reason why they haven't replaced them is down to cost.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Other than much improved safety features, much better external doors, quieter vestibules and in terms of the WCML able to run at greater speeds.

Marginally safer, yes, but for me, comfort always wins out over speed, and external doors don't feature in my concerns. In terms of vestibules, the ability to get some fresh air can be handy (particularly if hungover).

One thing that you haven't mentioned that I find much better on the HST's are toilets. Easy to use mechanical locks, taps, paper towels rather than useless dryers etc, proper flush loos, rather than electric suction things.

As for why haven't similar seats been installed on Meridians - it's a modern off the shelf train, and when's the last time they introduced a new train with deep seat cushions ?

 

[Minilad]

The only advantage of a Pendolino is speed. Because it means you don't have to suffer them for as long. I am lucky in that I rarely have to travel on them. If I want to go to London I can, and do, use Chiltern or LM.
But thats just personal preference

 

[43096]

So why don't Meridians have the same style of seating if East Midlands Trains think its so great? I suspect the real reason why they haven't replaced them is down to cost.

Because they don't meet the latest standards, so you can't fit them.

You "suspect" - so you don't know. I have no reason to doubt what EMT told me, and it's rather more to go on than suspecting it's not the case.

 

[CheshireCrusty]

Never having experienced a journey on a Pendolino, I'd be interested to know how experienced travellers rate it in comparison to the Inter City 225.
General ambience, leg room, proportion of airline seats to table seats, catering.
The Pendolino is an Italian train although the ones in use in the UK are supposedly custom designed. Does this relate only to the reduced width?

Depends entirely on the route travelled.
The 225 are generally more spacious and quieter on straight long distance routes. Pendos are far superior on twisting routes, but the interiors, particularly noticeable in Standard Class, are more cramped and were optimised for a London to Birmingham 1 hour journey and this becomes obvious even on a 2 hour London to Manchester journey. Nevertheless on a 3 1/2 hour journey from the Northwest to Scotland, I would much rather be on a 390 than a 225 (not that a 225 is likely to be on that route any time soon) or even worse a Desiro based set (185 or 350).
The Mk 3 coaches are OK on the GWR routes as far as Exeter but I find even the much loathed 220 Voyagers more comfortable on the route into Cornwall. I occasionally had to endure the Cross Country HST Mk 3 set from the West Country to the Midlands where passengers were regularly thrown out of their seats onto the floor and catering was impossible unless you could drink through your ears! It may have been one particularly bad set but it certainly prejudiced me against the Mk3 carriage.

 

[Minilad]

.
The Mk 3 coaches are OK on the GWR routes as far as Exeter but I find even the much loathed 220 Voyagers more comfortable on the route into Cornwall. I occasionally had to endure the Cross Country HST Mk 3 set from the West Country to the Midlands where passengers were regularly thrown out of their seats onto the floor and catering was impossible unless you could drink through your ears! It may have been one particularly bad set but it certainly prejudiced me against the Mk3 carriage.

It is a brave man indeed that comes on here suggesting a Voyager is more comfortable than a HST!!

 

[sprinterguy]

I occasionally had to endure the Cross Country HST Mk 3 set from the West Country to the Midlands where passengers were regularly thrown out of their seats onto the floor and catering was impossible unless you could drink through your ears! It may have been one particularly bad set but it certainly prejudiced me against the Mk3 carriage.

I would agree that the ride quality of mark 3 carriages can be variable, and I've travelled on HST sets that were prone to soss and wallow about on their suspension due to being out of condition, but I have never, ever witnessed a ride so bad that "passengers were regularly thrown out of their seats".

If true, that would indicate a serious maintenance issue that would more than likely see the set removed from service at the earliest possible opportunity.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

I would agree that the ride quality of mark 3 carriages can be variable, and I've travelled on HST sets that were prone to soss and wallow about on their suspension due to being out of condition, but I have never, ever witnessed a ride so bad that "passengers were regularly thrown out of their seats".

If true, that would indicate a serious maintenance issue that would more than likely see the set removed from service at the earliest possible opportunity.

I've never been entirely convinced by the springing rates on the XC HST sets, I can only assume it's to do with carriage weights and XC's modifications not quite suiting the coil primary and air secondary suspension settings.

The composite vehicle with catering pod always seems particularly fidgety at speed, compared with, say, a VTEC buffet.

 

[yorksrob]

I've had my drink launch itself off of the table on a mk4 at speed, but not yet a mk3. That said, I don't tend to use XC's routes that often.

 

[sprinterguy]

I've never been entirely convinced by the springing rates on the XC HST sets, I can only assume it's to do with carriage weights and XC's modifications not quite suiting the coil primary and air secondary suspension settings.

The composite vehicle with catering pod always seems particularly fidgety at speed, compared with, say, a VTEC buffet.

I've travelled often on Crosscountry's refurbished HST sets in the last five years or so, and most commonly in the composite vehicle in the last couple of months, and personally I've never found them to be anything other than smooth riding. Especially compared to a particularly rough riding Grand Central example from a couple of years ago that sticks in the memory.

 

[fowler9]

Depends entirely on the route travelled.
The 225 are generally more spacious and quieter on straight long distance routes. Pendos are far superior on twisting routes, but the interiors, particularly noticeable in Standard Class, are more cramped and were optimised for a London to Birmingham 1 hour journey and this becomes obvious even on a 2 hour London to Manchester journey. Nevertheless on a 3 1/2 hour journey from the Northwest to Scotland, I would much rather be on a 390 than a 225 (not that a 225 is likely to be on that route any time soon) or even worse a Desiro based set (185 or 350).
The Mk 3 coaches are OK on the GWR routes as far as Exeter but I find even the much loathed 220 Voyagers more comfortable on the route into Cornwall. I occasionally had to endure the Cross Country HST Mk 3 set from the West Country to the Midlands where passengers were regularly thrown out of their seats onto the floor and catering was impossible unless you could drink through your ears! It may have been one particularly bad set but it certainly prejudiced me against the Mk3 carriage.

What a massive exaggeration! Passengers thrown out of their chairs and catering impossible. Let's all make stuff up. I travelled on two 390's today. It was a bit like a trip on an SU 27. Weaver Junction was like a plane doing a Cobra.

 

[ainsworth74]

What a massive exaggeration! Passengers thrown out of their chairs and catering impossible. Let's all make stuff up. I travelled on two 390's today. It was a bit like a trip on an SU 27. Weaver Junction was like a plane doing a Cobra.

An exaggeration certainly but I have noticed that Mk3s are increasingly giving a much worse ride compared to other trains. Mk3s vs Mk4s on the ECML and Mk3s vs 22xs on XC are two that I've noticed.

Though I'm happy to volunteer for a trip on a Su-27!

 

[DarloRich]

I occasionally had to endure the Cross Country HST Mk 3 set from the West Country to the Midlands where passengers were regularly thrown out of their seats onto the floor and catering was impossible unless you could drink through your ears!

no they weren't and no it wasn't :roll:

 

[CheshireCrusty]

Depends entirely on the route travelled.
I occasionally had to endure the Cross Country HST Mk 3 set from the West Country to the Midlands where passengers were regularly thrown out of their seats onto the floor and catering was impossible unless you could drink through your ears! It may have been one particularly bad set but it certainly prejudiced me against the Mk3 carriage.

"Regularly" was a bit of an exaggeration - but I observed on 3 journeys and it happened to me once.
I think it was a particular bad set - my regular journeys on that route were at the end of the Virgin franchise and the start of the XC franchise and I think the HST set concerned was used as a reserve / summer relief to strengthen the 220/221 fleet. The occasion I was thrown out of my seat was on a Saturday Newquay to Manchester rotation and I was travelling in the first seat row in the first class carriage next to the buffet. The ride was particularly bad between Taunton and Bristol and between Cheltenham and Birmingham whereas the 220s seemed to "hug" the track on the same sections, but that did not improve the toilet and reliability problems!
I wonder whether anyone knows if Virgin XC used the 5 car 221 sets on the Penzance route in tilting mode? I may be mistaken but I got the impression that they might have done as I certainly noticed a difference from the 4 car 220s, but that might just have been the different bogeys.

 

[sprinterguy]

I think it was a particular bad set - my regular journeys on that route were at the end of the Virgin franchise and the start of the XC franchise and I think the HST set concerned was used as a reserve / summer relief to strengthen the 220/221 fleet.

Around that time, Crosscountry were using hired or ex-Midland Mainline HSTs as a capacity boost, and you're not wrong that they certainly were a bit rough and very much in need of some attention.

I wonder whether anyone knows if Virgin XC used the 5 car 221 sets on the Penzance route in tilting mode? I may be mistaken but I got the impression that they might have done as I certainly noticed a difference from the 4 car 220s, but that might just have been the different bogeys.

On the Crosscountry network (away from the WCML), tilt was only enabled on a short stretch between Oxford and Banbury as far as I know.

 

[rdlover777]

Agreed. I have felt seasick on them occasionally, and my father gets very nauseous and headachy.

hasn't tilt sickness been around since the APT days?

 

[Bletchleyite]

hasn't tilt sickness been around since the APT days?

The Pendolino is said to compensate for it in 2 ways - one is predictive tilt, the vehicle in front determines the degree of tilt, the other is that tilt does not compensate 100% for the curve.

The ride is noticeably rougher in the front coach where there is nothing to predict the degree of tilt from.

 

[deltic08]

I can' believe this thread is still active. How much more can be said for or against?

For me 225s were far superior in every way until March 2015 when they lost their appeal as both are now Virgin.

 

[43096]

I can' believe this thread is still active. How much more can be said for or against?



For me 225s were far superior in every way until March 2015 when they lost their appeal as both are now Virgin.

Which is nothing to do with the train and everything to do with your preconceived idea of Virgin. As VTEC is 95% Stagecoach owned you've fallen for the name change.