Inter City 225 -v- Pendolino: your views as a passenger?

[STEVIEBOY1]

I prefer the 225s, but really like the old 125s too.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Sorry, but the Mk2/Mk3 stock WAS run down by VT. I was also a regular on the WCML in BR days and the VT days up to and including the introduction of the Pendo.

The stock was due a refurb at the end of BR and got a refresh quickly under VT (I'll give you that), but it then deteriorated (along with the track - Railtrack were especially bad) rapidly. Being particularly bad (they did the bare minimum in the run up to the intro of the Pendos where the 87s started to be unreliable (the Skodas having been all but withdrawn by then)

However you may not have noticed that I mentioned that I'd started using the WCML during BR days when in my opinion the service was already unreliable and the Mk2's were already showing their age.

I agree that Virgin only appeared to do the bare minimum but from their point of view why spend a fortune on something when new trains are already on their way?

 

[yorksrob]

I agree that Virgin only appeared to do the bare minimum but from their point of view why spend a fortune on something when new trains are already on their way?

One could argue the same about the 125's on the ECML, yet VTEC seem to be spending a bit on engine and interior facelift.

 

[RichmondCommu]

One could argue the same about the 125's on the ECML, yet VTEC seem to be spending a bit on engine and interior facelift.

Yes you could but I'm assuming that's because maybe the timescale for the introduction of the 800's is longer than it was for the Pendolino's?

 

[Ash Bridge]

Yes you could but I'm assuming that's because maybe the timescale for the introduction of the 800's is longer than it was for the Pendolino's?

Actually I think it's the other way round, as I remember the WC mk2/3 refresh took place during 1997/8 with the first of the 390's arriving in 2002, are not the EC 800's due sometime in 2018?

 

[yorksrob]

Actually I think it's the other way round, as I remember the WC mk2/3 refresh took place during 1997/8 with the first of the 390's arriving in 2002, are not the EC 800's due sometime in 2018?

Indeed. The Mk2/3 reign on VTWC seemed to last quite a few years up until 2001. I was using them from '96 onwards, and whilst the internal ambience was perfectly splendid, reliability was definitely a bit patchy, suggesting that not much had happened on the technical side.

As you say, they seem to be planning to do away with the 125's from 2018, so the amount of time from their refurb is likely to be a lot less.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Actually I think it's the other way round, as I remember the WC mk2/3 refresh took place during 1997/8 with the first of the 390's arriving in 2002, are not the EC 800's due sometime in 2018?

There were definitely unrefurbed Mk3s out in 1998 - I have photos of me on one that are certainly from that year. I think it was a pre privatisation spec interior but most of the work was actually done post privatisation.

 

[Aldaniti]

The first few years of Virgin Trains were often farcical and there was certainly a lack of spending on maintenance - and only the punters suffered. I recall one particularly memorable and cold journey from Reading to Stafford where we had to have three locomotive changes and I arrived home well past midnight. I received some vouchers but I was that displeased with the response, I sent them back and told Virgin that their need was clearly greater than mine. Thankfully Chris Green was then brought back and things started to shape up.

 

[urpert]

. I recall one particularly memorable and cold journey from Reading to Stafford where we had to have three locomotive changes and I arrived home well past midnight.

For some enthusiasts that sounds like heaven!

 

[Aldaniti]

For some enthusiasts that sounds like heaven!

Oh it was - but I was tired and had another early start for work the following morning - the initial fun had long gone by the time I got home!

 

[Ash Bridge]

There were definitely unrefurbed Mk3s out in 1998 - I have photos of me on one that are certainly from that year. I think it was a pre privatisation spec interior but most of the work was actually done post privatisation.

Indeed there would still be a few unrefurbished rakes in 1998, I'm certain the first refurbished WC mk3 set (with table lamps in 1st class, blue seat trim in standard etc.) was released in the dying days of Intercity and in executive livery during 1996 but was funded by the owning Rosco and not BR, the Virgin franchise commenced from January 1997 and I don't think the full program was completed until the end of 1998.

 

[43096]

Indeed there would still be a few unrefurbished rakes in 1998, I'm certain the first refurbished WC mk3 set (with table lamps in 1st class, blue seat trim in standard etc.) was released in the dying days of Intercity and in executive livery during 1996 but was funded by the owning Rosco and not BR, the Virgin franchise commenced from January 1997 and I don't think the full program was completed until the end of 1998.

You are correct. I suppose technically it was under the West Coast TOU, as InterCity ceased to exist in 1994, but it was definitely under BR that the first West Coast Mark 3 set was refurbished - the refurb spec was BR's.

The same applied on Cross-Country: the first few refurbished sets came out in InterCity livery.

 

[Ash Bridge]

You are correct. I suppose technically it was under the West Coast TOU, as InterCity ceased to exist in 1994, but it was definitely under BR that the first West Coast Mark 3 set was refurbished - the refurb spec was BR's.

The same applied on Cross-Country: the first few refurbished sets came out in InterCity livery.

Yes, I recall seeing those Cross-Country mk2f refurbs in IC livery, the only thing that changed under the Virgin takeover was the branding on the first class seat antimacassars.

 

[LUKAnorthwest]

I would say that I am now fully accustomed to the 390 tilt. I still notice it but only when I'm looking for it. Whilst on a service from Edinburgh to York last month I realised that my body is fully tuned to tilt as when going around sharp corners on a 225 I was holding onto the table for dear life! Lol.

I used to suffer from 'tilt syndrome' where I would feel motion sickness. Now I prefer travelling on the 390 instead of long car journeys, if you can pick the right seat then they can be the best train you can come across. I think it does its job extremely well, bringing 21st century comfort and 21st century speed to a 19th century network.

As I type this i am arriving into Euston and feel alert and ready to tackle my FREE TUBE DAY!

 

[cjmillsnun]

I think it does its job extremely well, bringing 21st century comfort and 21st century speed to a 19th century network.

I would argue 20th century speed. We've been at 125 in this country in regular passenger service since 1976. It took until the 21st century for the WCML to catch up.

 

[Minilad]

I would say that I am now fully accustomed to the 390 tilt. I still notice it but only when I'm looking for it. Whilst on a service from Edinburgh to York last month I realised that my body is fully tuned to tilt as when going around sharp corners on a 225 I was holding onto the table for dear life! Lol.

I used to suffer from 'tilt syndrome' where I would feel motion sickness. Now I prefer travelling on the 390 instead of long car journeys, if you can pick the right seat then they can be the best train you can come across. I think it does its job extremely well, bringing 21st century comfort and 21st century speed to a 19th century network.

As I type this i am arriving into Euston and feel alert and ready to tackle my FREE TUBE DAY!

I would prefer 20th century comfort as 21st century "comfort" seems to be all about cram em in on wafer thin seats.
We were doing 125 in the 20th century too. And the 19th century network they run on has just had a £6bn upgrade to make it fit for 21st century
Good luck with the FREE TUBE DAY though. Seeing as the problem has now been fixed!

 

[coppercapped]

One could argue the same about the 125's on the ECML, yet VTEC seem to be spending a bit on engine and interior facelift.

Because the majority shareholder in VTEC is Stagecoach which understands the commercial imperative of operating reliable trains. Christian Roth, Stagecoach's engineering director, is behind the drive that has enabled SWT to operate 5 out of the 7 most reliable train fleets in the country.

 

[bnm]

Another best train/worst train thread. Never any consensus.

Never any point.

 

[fowler9]

Another best train/worst train thread. Never any consensus.

Never any point.

Cheer up mate. There aren't many things everyone agrees on. A bit of debate is good though.

 

[Minilad]

Another best train/worst train thread. Never any consensus.

Never any point.

To be fair most threads on here end up the same way. Pointless bickering over semantics!

 

[bramling]

Because the majority shareholder in VTEC is Stagecoach which understands the commercial imperative of operating reliable trains. Christian Roth, Stagecoach's engineering director, is behind the drive that has enabled SWT to operate 5 out of the 7 most reliable train fleets in the country.

It's also notable that SWTs trains tend to be pretty well turned out internally too. Even their slam-door trains were generally in a much better internal condition compared to comparable Connex trains at the time.

I've less experience with EMT, but their Meridians are pretty smart inside.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I would prefer 20th century comfort as 21st century "comfort" seems to be all about cram em in on wafer thin seats.
We were doing 125 in the 20th century too. And the 19th century network they run on has just had a £6bn upgrade to make it fit for 21st century
Good luck with the FREE TUBE DAY though. Seeing as the problem has now been fixed!

Not on the WCML though, with the exception of the APT for a short while.

The policy of "cram em in" allows more people to have a seat in which case that must surely be a good thing? Not to mention all the advantages that a Pendolino has over a Mk3.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I would argue 20th century speed. We've been at 125 in this country in regular passenger service since 1976. It took until the 21st century for the WCML to catch up.

Yes and how was that achieved on such a consistent basis? Oh wait the Pendolino.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

To be fair most threads on here end up the same way. Pointless bickering over semantics!

Too true!
Londoners and Scots can compare 225s and 390s regularly, but most other folk will only ever get to ride on one or the other.
I was taught that the UK is divided into the Wet Side, the Dry Side and the Soft Underbelly.
I live on the wet (390) side. 225-ers live on the dry side, and ne'er the twain shall meet.
Meanwhile the soft underbelly (where the DfT lives) thinks all trains turn up every 30 minutes, have blunt ends, split somewhere en route, and might do 75mph on a good day "up to town".

 

[yorksrob]

Not on the WCML though, with the exception of the APT for a short while.

The policy of "cram em in" allows more people to have a seat in which case that must surely be a good thing? Not to mention all the advantages that a Pendolino has over a Mk3.

Hmm yes, those advantages that a Pendolino has over a Mk3. Sorry Richmond Commuter, but I can't say as I've ever noticed them myself!

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's also notable that SWTs trains tend to be pretty well turned out internally too. Even their slam-door trains were generally in a much better internal condition compared to comparable Connex trains at the time.

Presentation is and long has been a big thing to Stagecoach. When do you ever see one of their buses with mucky windows, or indeed even a dented Megabus? It really makes them look hugely better than the other big groups.

 

[yorksrob]

It's also notable that SWTs trains tend to be pretty well turned out internally too. Even their slam-door trains were generally in a much better internal condition compared to comparable Connex trains at the time.

This is true. I remember being very impressed by the the internal condition of their slam door trains at a time when the Connexes were cutting corners.

 

[harz99]

Personally I find the seating on both Pendo and 225 uncomfortable for more than an hour journey, largely because they are all well worn with little padding.

Both interiors are similar age now, and neither has had a refurb with new seat bases since they were first used between 2003 and 2006. Contrasting them both to the sprung seats in Chiltern Mk3s and EMT HSTs shows just how poor both Pendo and 225 are.

The most comfortable seats I've travelled on recently are in South Eastern 395 Javelins, although as these trains have only been in use 6 years they are somewhat less used and if allowed another 6 years use before refurb may well be as bad by then.

 

[yorksrob]

Personally I find the seating on both Pendo and 225 uncomfortable for more than an hour journey, largely because they are all well worn with little padding.

Both interiors are similar age now, and neither has had a refurb with new seat bases since they were first used between 2003 and 2006. Contrasting them both to the sprung seats in Chiltern Mk3s and EMT HSTs shows just how poor both Pendo and 225 are.

The most comfortable seats I've travelled on recently are in South Eastern 395 Javelins, although as these trains have only been in use 6 years they are somewhat less used and if allowed another 6 years use before refurb may well be as bad by then.

Indeed. And it's telling that both Chiltern and EMT use the original IC70 seat design.

 

[sprinterguy]

Also, how far could a Mk 4 tilt if the appropriate equipment were fitted?

The tilting mark 4s would have titled to a maximum of 6 degrees, rather than the 8 of the Pendolinos.

 

[hassaanhc]

Presentation is and long has been a big thing to Stagecoach. When do you ever see one of their buses with mucky windows, or indeed even a dented Megabus? It really makes them look hugely better than the other big groups.

Even in London some vehicles are repainted after 3-4 years, whereas other companies only repaint if necessary for a new contract. However, during cold weather the external cleanliness takes a hit at certain garages. Barking's washer (based outdoor) can't be used in low winter temperatures, which leaves the vehicles covered in dirt for weeks on end. And a number of Plumstead's ALX400 Tridents don't sound very healthy (they managed to swap some with Barking and got good ones :P).