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Inter City 225 -v- Pendolino: your views as a passenger?
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deltic
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I agree with the majority IC225 everytime. I have the misfortune to travel on pendolinos between London and Birmingham virtually every week and unless I am fortunate to travel 1st class they are awful. Not enough leg room, no sockets for laptops accept at the few tables and I have to give up work on them after a while as I ended up feeling ill. I often find them too hot and the wifi is poor in first class and I'm not paying for it in standard. I often return by Chiltern despite the slower journey and longer travel time home from Marylebone than Euston to avoid the pendolinos.
Maybe just rose tinted glasses but I do feel the ride quality on the IC225 has declined in recent years.
Maybe just rose tinted glasses but I do feel the ride quality on the IC225 has declined in recent years.
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LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
They are both (GEC-) Alstom trains with British and French design features and a Washwood Heath pedigree.
Also the 390s have an Italian (originally Fiat) body shell and tilt mechanism derived from the APT.
The electrics on both (traction motors and class 91 - the best bits) are UK designed (Preston).
In between there was the TGV-derived Alstom class 373 Eurostar (also with Preston electrics).
I think the design consultants for the 390 (styling, interiors etc) also did Eurostar.
Personally, I have never got over the tinny squeaky seat-back tables on the 225s, or the poor seat pitch in standard. Maybe the refurb has cured all that.
But I don't travel on post-refurb 225s enough to comment.
I very much like the 390s (if you can get one of the better seats).
Nothing beats 125mph at full tilt through Linslade/Rugby/Whitmore and all the rest, and they are very quick off the mark, good doors etc.
I also prefer red trains. For most of their life the 225s have been painted in invisible dark blue.
I have travelled on Czech, Portuguese and Swiss/Italian Pendolinos, and you do notice the extra shoulder/elbow space in the continental seats.
Some things are the same however, notably the narrow window profile and "deadlights" - seats with no view.
But then the IEP will have some seats like that. So do Boeing 767s.
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This can be lively. Placing a drink on one of the seat back tables is a risky business!
The Eurostar interior always struck me as very good, from my days of using them on the ECML. In truth, I think window visibility has a lot to do with it.
GatwickDepress
Established Member
Without wishing to be accused of Virgin bashing, I do think that VT's specifications have a lot to do with some of the interior issues. The prominent red inside leads the carriage to very claustrophobic to me.
cf111
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If you look at the aftermath of the Grayrigg derailment the Pendolino held up like a tank.
It's a dead heat for me, the mk4 coaches might have the edge in that you can actually get actually mobile phone signal in them but beyond that I think they're both fine trains. The Pendolino is a much smoother ride.
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zn1
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Personally - the 390s,220,1 are a good design..for me the ability to fall asleep is a factor..easy to kip on i find..are a great fair ground ride on the curves with tilt.
from a passenger point of view they are quick, safe, reliable...i find them ok at seat, and in standing on a trip.
IC225 - always a good ride...bit choppy until they are cruising..would be supern of the tilt packs had been installed on the fleet..- we all know that 225 is a non tilt APT without the problem bits..
from a passenger point of view they are quick, safe, reliable...i find them ok at seat, and in standing on a trip.
IC225 - always a good ride...bit choppy until they are cruising..would be supern of the tilt packs had been installed on the fleet..- we all know that 225 is a non tilt APT without the problem bits..
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
That concludes it.
Mk3 beats them both
I also found original Mk3 lighting too bright, but some of the returns have improved it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
And therein lies a preference issue. To some, e.g. me, your claustrophobic is their cosy. Red=warm, dark red leather effect and dark blue=rich, quality feel.
Philip Phlopp
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The ride has always been abysmal on the IC225 sets, but that's down to the wrong bogies being selected. They should have BREL T4 bogies, and in turn, they should ride very much like the Class 158 units which a lot of people (rightly) regard as the best riding units in Britain.
British Rail politics, privatisation politics and utterly moronic behaviour got in the way, and IC225 was stuck with mediocre SIG bogies. Yes, the people who also make guns.
BREL didn't make guns, they stuck to what they were bloody good at, which is why we've got Electrostar units still coming out of Derby with BREL designed bogies, why we've got CrossRail stock will run on BREL designed bogies, and why Siemens have resorted to copying the Advanced Suburban Bogie for ThamesLink stock, only 10+ years after the first internal framed bogies rolled out into squadron service on Voyagers.
The R&D people at the RTC were kept busy for months trying to get the SIG bogies working properly (lots more information on the Old Dalby and Train Testing sites) and they never did manage to completely solve the problems, they were, I'm told, terrifying at 140mph and people were a bit convinced of impending death at the even higher speeds.
Mark 3 worship needs to stop - the BT10 bogies are OK, but again, classic British Rail cock-up, with LSL and SSL bogies, and a ban on HST stock working over third rail territory unless engineering can confirm an absence of LSL bogies. I know it's a side effect of using an electrical collection method best suited to keeping Frank Hornby amused, but BR knew what they had and screwed up on that too.
How much work has OOC put into getting SSL sets all together for the Waterloo diversions ?
British Rail - snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, every sodding time.
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LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
Yes, the urban myth was that the 225 suspension was designed for 140mph, and so was worse at lower speeds. Evidently not the case!
The 390s are also designed for 140mph, and were rough initially, but today I find them about the best 125mph ride around.
Certainly better than 221s on the same track.
bramling
Veteran Member
Personally I don't mind either. The journey experience on a Pendolino I find depends heavily on where you sit, whereas on an IC225 almost every seat is ok. The Pendolino has the big benefit that you might get an 11-car train.
Internally either decor I find ok, would prefer the Pendolino to have bigger windows, and the Mk4s to have more comfortable seats.
Until someone comes up with a better passenger environment (something that seems less likely over time), I don't see the Mk3 adulation ending any time soon, I'm afraid.
This is taking pedantry to a whole new level, even for this board.
43096
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No we don't...
APT was developed by BR Research, built by BREL and used ASEA (now part of Bombardier) traction kit. IC225 was designed by GEC-Alsthom (now part of Alstom) with build part sub-contracted to BREL and used GEC traction equipment. Not much in common, really.
themiller
Established Member
In my time, I've been in several tilting trains both at home and abroad. In my opinion they all appear to be claustrophobic - even in first class. This is probably to do with the sloping sides which is unnecessary on a non-tilt coach. Even the ETR 470 and Swiss ICN don't appear to be any better than the British trains. I may be mistaken (and someone on the forum will no doubt correct me) but the luggage racks appear to be lower on tilters than on non. This could be due to the narrowness at the contrail level defining a lower height in order to accommodate the luggage.
Philip Phlopp
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Just a quick note on ASEA, ABB, Daimler, MTU and others.
They merged with Brown, Boveri and Cie (the Swiss electrical and engineering firm) to form ABB. BREL was bought out by ABB and Daimler Benz merged in their rail business, forming AdTranz, short for ABB Daimler Transportation. MTU was mixed in with all of this, as it was still owned by Daimler Benz at the time.
ABB sold out to Daimler, who in turn sold out to Bombardier, MTU was floated off on its own, bought by a private venture capitalise outfit, sold again to Daimler and Rolls-Royce plc, and Rolls-Royce plc have recently bought out Daimler's share. MTU includes parts of Maybach, who designed the diesel engines BR Western Region used in their stupid hydraulic locomotives, they were built by Bristol, who were merged into Rolls-Royce.
The MTU 6R183 engine was specified for the Turbostar family because of the business connections between MTU and AdTranz at the time, it started life as a diesel lorry engine designed by a MAN and Mercedes-Benz joint venture.
ABB kept some of their rail component business, and produce a successful range of traction motors and transformers for locomotives, which is what makes the Class 68 locomotives go. The rest went with AdTranz and is what's with Bombardier.
They're much better known now in railway circles for their 400/25 and 275/25 step down transformers, which we use on electrification schemes (solid equipment which doesn't cause too much bother).
The Advanced Suburban Bogie was caught up in all of this fallout - the bogie was developed by British Rail and RFS Industries, Bombardier picked up RFS Industries and the rights to the ASB B5000 bogie back in 1994, which is why it made it onto the Voyager designs before Bombardier had completed the purchase of AdTranz, and also explaining why the Voyager family use Alstom electrical components and Cummins engines, they wouldn't inherit their own electrical component design and build facilities until after the AdTranz takeover. It's also why the Turbostar and Electrostar family didn't start life with the ASB bogie - the rights weren't vested with ABB or AdTranz, but with Bombardier.
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Mikey C
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The 390s feel cramped, the luggage rack is far too shallow, and the windows are too small, leaving lots of seats next to panelling, and little view out the other side as well. Interestingly the Voyagers, also designed for tilt have larger windows, and especially with the improved 222s are much nicer inside.
On the plus side they're smooth, fast and very safe to crash in.
I've been on Italian Pendolinos, and with the continental gauge, had lovely big windows and were a lot nicer to ride in.
The IC225s with their larger windows are nicer to ride in but the ride isn't as good. They're presumably worse to crash in as well
On the plus side they're smooth, fast and very safe to crash in.
I've been on Italian Pendolinos, and with the continental gauge, had lovely big windows and were a lot nicer to ride in.
The IC225s with their larger windows are nicer to ride in but the ride isn't as good. They're presumably worse to crash in as well
charley_17/7
Member
Having spent many years commuting by Pendolino, and even spending time as a member of traincrew working one, I'd say the IC225.
One thing I do prefer on the Pendolino is the huge amount of cycle space being located next to Standard Class, rather than First.
To me, IC225 symbolised everything that was great about Britain, and its railway. in the 1990s. It represented one of the best-established railway brands, and the name has been copied elsewhere in the world. Compare the success of the IC brand in Germany with any of our TOCs, none of them cut the mustard. The 'black silk' advert, with IC225 at the centre of it, was a success.
IC225 was actually designed for the West Coast, after the failure of the APT project. After IC's Strategy Review of 1989, the financial case for a new-build line between London and Manchester couldn't be made, so the vision was for an (IC250 run) 160mph railway with IC225s (like HSTs were to APT!) as a stop-gap, ideal for then cascading to the East Coast and Great Western routes, prior to them getting upgraded.
Had the argument been IC225 vs. IC250, I feel the answer might have been different. A shame privatisation denied us that.
One thing I do prefer on the Pendolino is the huge amount of cycle space being located next to Standard Class, rather than First.
To me, IC225 symbolised everything that was great about Britain, and its railway. in the 1990s. It represented one of the best-established railway brands, and the name has been copied elsewhere in the world. Compare the success of the IC brand in Germany with any of our TOCs, none of them cut the mustard. The 'black silk' advert, with IC225 at the centre of it, was a success.
IC225 was actually designed for the West Coast, after the failure of the APT project. After IC's Strategy Review of 1989, the financial case for a new-build line between London and Manchester couldn't be made, so the vision was for an (IC250 run) 160mph railway with IC225s (like HSTs were to APT!) as a stop-gap, ideal for then cascading to the East Coast and Great Western routes, prior to them getting upgraded.
Had the argument been IC225 vs. IC250, I feel the answer might have been different. A shame privatisation denied us that.
sprinterguy
Veteran Member
BRs' tendering process for the IC225 project was different to the largely in-house development of the APT, but in its' latter days the APT-P was used solely as a development vehicle for the Electra/IC225 project.
richa2002
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Potentially poor flexibility over third rail is hardly a big deal for a coach which doesn't operate over there 99% of the time.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Not sure, but it is true - but it has an advantage that they are easier to access.
The ICN is very similar (in terms of build, not seats) to a UK Pendolino inside, I find, even though it has little actually in common. The SBB New Pendolino is an absolute abomination - narrow seats and poor seatback design throwing away the benefits of good seat spacing.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Despite being quite small it is very square, which means it fits surprisingly large bags. It's also low down so easy to lift them up.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Yet some of us think the lighting is horribly garish and the InterCity 70 seats were terrible. Of course, there are some good refurbs, but you could put a good interior in any other coach. It's just a long metal tube with windows.
The 442 is everything the Mk3 should have been, of course. Better seats, better lighting, power doors and no slamming-back-and-forth vestibule doors.
Harlesden
Member
Surely you can determine from a person's facial expression and general demeanour that something is not quite right, they are not feeling themselves.
306024
Established Member
Class 390s are just monotonously efficient. Their speed has revolutionised the WCML timetable, which means the best thing to say about them is you don't spend so long aboard one. Unfortunately they have made travelling on the WCML no longer of any interest to me.
The ECML 225s have a better ambience, and still feel more like a traditional train, even if they are push-pull. To me they simply give a more pleasant travelling experience, so get my vote for what that's worth.
The ECML 225s have a better ambience, and still feel more like a traditional train, even if they are push-pull. To me they simply give a more pleasant travelling experience, so get my vote for what that's worth.
RichmondCommu
Established Member
However none of that suggests that the Pendolino's are a bad train, indeed it all suggests that the Pendolino's have been good news for the WCML and its users.
What's wrong with being quicker and more importantly safer than the trains that came before it?
Those that are happy knock the Pendolino's have clearly forgotten what it was like to travel on the WCML during the bad old days of loco hauled stock.
Not only that but those who favor the IC225 over the Pendolino have appeared to have conveniently forgotten the poor ride quality of the 225's, not to mention the constant juddering, their lack of acceleration and poor reliability.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
However what about the pain in the backside doors that cannot be opened without a great deal of fuss?
My normal 'work week away' case fits easily into every luggage rack I put it in - except Pendolinos and Voyagers. It's always an effort to get it in/out of them as the rack narrows at the lip.
dave59
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Despite most people spending the entire journey gawping at electronic devices I am one of the few who enjoy the view of real estate out of the window. The 225 it is then. Now if Pendolinos are ordered from now on will they be any better (bigger windows) or is the 390 the only version for UK gauge?
306024
Established Member
Quite agree with the first two points, but the question was my view as a passenger, not my view for the industry in general. To the general public they have indeed been good news if you've no interest in the train itself.
As for forgetting what WCML loco hauled stock was like, you can always come over to the GEML for a refresher
Minilad
Established Member
I don't think people as saying they are a bad train as such. Just that they have many features that people find sub standard. Especially when they hear Virgin telling us they are the best things since sliced bread all the time.
I remember very well thundering up and down the WCML behind (or being pushed by) an 87 and they might not have been as quick but they were more comfortable and had a better ambience and I miss them days very much.
Fast doesn't mean good in my book. But that is just my opinion of course, I'm just not taken in by shiny tilting trains
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