ASLEF and RMT agree: no more DOO or DCO

[Clip]

So are you saying that on the s-Hahn the doors automatically close without any visual check by a human being? What happens to the mother trying to get her 3 kids off the train just as they start to close etc?

they have some light sensor he has mentioned which wont close the doors if obstructed. And if they did close fully then the door open buttons stay on for another 5 seconds and can be opened again.

 

[muz379]

The system I described is used for the S-Bahn in Munich, a city of some 1.5 million, with the surrounding metropolitan area the population is a bit shy of 6 million.

Of course there are drunks and people playing the fool - Munich is home to about seven large breweries (Augustiner, Hacker-Pschorr, Spaten, Isar Bräu, Löwenbräu, Hofbräu and Unions-Bräu) and some further ones in nearby towns are Aying, Klosterbrauerei Andechs, Erding, Schlossbrauerei Kaltenberg, Schneider and Weihenstephan. However in the evenings the trains and the stations are frequently patrolled by security squads, each consisting of a minimum of 4 ladies and gentlemen who look as if they will brook no nonsense!

It seems to work.

It seems to work though because passengers are expected to take responsibility for themselves , and there is no allowance made to protect people from themselves . Something that is at times tedious to have to do as a guard but nonetheless necessary on the railway in this country . Without a massive culture change overnight that type of self responsibility would never happen in this country .

Not to mention all of the times I have visited Germany drunks are a completely different animal over there to the self entitled adult babies you see over here who can barely get themselves home .

You have hit the nail on the head Coppercapped. I believe mainland Europe DOES expect passengers to take responsibility for their actions whereas here it is the reverse. Even with the fencing I have heard people blaming the railway for "allowing" their children to trespass. At present we have a guard being prosecuted for a door related incident which his employer is satisfied is not his fault which we are all awaiting the outcome of with baited breath I suspect. Though as it's sub judice can't say more. I think there is a general increase in risk adversity amongst guards and DOO drivers because of such events which ultimately does none of us any favours as it will lead to more delays. I would be much happier if we took a German view of things here!
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Despite being a guard , I would personally not wish to take a German view of safety towards passengers here . I would rather not be working a train , or traveling as an ordinary member of the public on a train which kills somebody just because a simple check to make sure everybody is clear of the train is beyond the remit of rail staff working that train .

I think a little less liability is required for rail staff who have done their jobs properly such as seems to be the case in the latest Merseyrail prosecution but again we will wait and see the outcome of that one . But prosecutions like those of the guard responsible for the James street incident as perfectly acceptable as far as I am concerned , dont do your job properly and have an incident that leads to someones death and that is the result . The railway is not unique in that sense .

 

[A-driver]

they have some light sensor he has mentioned which wont close the doors if obstructed. And if they did close fully then the door open buttons stay on for another 5 seconds and can be opened again.

So 100% unworkable on the London commuter belt in rush hour then. A constant flow of people arriving onto the platforms all running for the train that's already there. If they are able to stop doors closing like in a lift then there is no chance that train will ever depart!

 

[coppercapped]

they have some light sensor he has mentioned which wont close the doors if obstructed. And if they did close fully then the door open buttons stay on for another 5 seconds and can be opened again.

Not quite! The door buttons stay active until the driver decides it's time to go. He/she then deactivates the 'Doors Open' buttons - only after that has been done is it not possible for the doors to be re-opened by the passengers.
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So 100% unworkable on the London commuter belt in rush hour then. A constant flow of people arriving onto the platforms all running for the train that's already there. If they are able to stop doors closing like in a lift then there is no chance that train will ever depart!

I'm not sure it wouldn't work - but this is used on the S-Bahn so the technique would be more applicable to Crossrail with frequent trains rather than longer distance services. As I wrote earlier it works in Munich where there are 30 trains per hour through the "Stammstrecke" through the city centre from the Hauptbahnhof (actually Donnersbergerbrücke) to München Ost.

 

[Don King]

So when a young vulnerable girl drunk and on drugs puts her hands on the train window slips on her high heels, and gets dragged to her death, how will this German set up work?

As for the union bashing, I'd sooner trust the unions, than that idiot corporatist rail minister Claire Perry (a multinational banker), and the legion of soft lads in suits who think that traditional railway skills are irrelevent, and everyone can be replaced by G4S thugs who can't speak a word of English.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

As for the union bashing, I'd sooner trust the unions, than that idiot corporatist rail minister Claire Perry (a multinational banker), and the legion of soft lads in suits who think that traditional railway skills are irrelevent, and everyone can be replaced by G4S thugs who can't speak a word of English.

Be very careful when you make sweeping comments about all the G4S various international divisions. The nearest one in particular to meet your stated criteria which I have caused to be emboldened in your posting quote above is that of G4S Gurkha Services whom I do so advise you to read up a little about. If it seems that you are mocking either their language fluency or their homeland, then you should be totally and utterly ashamed of yourself.

Are you making comment about G4S and the railway industry? Are you unaware of the role of STM Security?. Are you referring to the G4S division that transports cash in their special vehicles?

Finally, where do these "G4S thugs" who cannot speak a word of English enter into the equation. What countries are they sourced from and what vetting takes place. Why should any employer employ any non-English speaker in a role where communication skills are essential. What is the current employment legislation that covers that very specific point. Are these "thugs" the same type that Jimmy Hoffa used when he was President of the Teamsters Union?

 

[Don King]

Perhaps you need to learn a bit more about your beloved G4S. A vile company complicit in fraud, murder and torture, who has been scamming the taxpayer for years.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/collections/shine-light/g4s-securing-whose-world

I do not know what relevance Gurkhas have to the industry. What I do know from seeing G4S on the front line is that their training, attitude and command of English is dire. They are used to undermine and undercut the existing workforce, and are treated as cheap disposable labour. The allegation they cannot speak English is not petty racism but comes from their own former CEO.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/olympics/news/9399841/Olympics-I-dont-know-if-guards-speak-English-says-G4S-chief.html

When I speak to my TTI colleagues who have worked with G4S, they have nothing but contempt. No one leaves the industry to join G4S, unless they have been sacked.

G4S are a criminal corporation who should be shut down. As for cash handling the railway used to do that themselves. In fact a British Rail security guard received the George Cross for his act of bravery against robbers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Kennedy_%28GC%29.

 

[Master29]

As for the union bashing, I'd sooner trust the unions, than that idiot corporatist rail minister Claire Perry (a multinational banker), and the legion of soft lads in suits who think that traditional railway skills are irrelevent, and everyone can be replaced by G4S thugs who can't speak a word of English.

You may be right about the corporations being the slime of humanity but remember, the people doing their jobs are most definitely not. Like most of us they work for these idiot corporations.

 

[coppercapped]

So when a young vulnerable girl drunk and on drugs puts her hands on the train window slips on her high heels, and gets dragged to her death, how will this German set up work?

Most likely her estate will be sent a bill for the damage and delays.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Perhaps you need to learn a bit more about your beloved G4S. A vile company complicit in fraud, murder and torture, who has been scamming the taxpayer for years.

I see that I am dealing with a Zen Master in the use of emotive posting language. Why do you choose to use the word "beloved" in respect to G4S when I wanted to take you to task over some of the statements that you have made so far. Have I ever expressed a feeling of "beloving" G4S in any previous posting that I have made.?

Firstly, did you even bother to research G4S Gurkha Services in the type of role that they perform. They all are fully trained soldiers who have completed their tour of duty. Tell me what complicity that particular division have with, to use your very own words, in fraud, murder and torture". Do you even understand the phrase "close protection" and what this entails?

Secondly, you chose not to answer my raising the matter of STM Security in railway contracts. I am going to be very fair to you and noting that very fact, I again ask where does G4S currently hold any railway contracts these days. Unlike you, I am always willing to be corrected.
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hock:

As for the union bashing, I'd sooner trust the unions, than that idiot corporatist rail minister Claire Perry (a multinational banker

IDIOT....An intellectually challenged person of low intelligence. I see that you are now also medically qualified in such diagnosis of ailments.....
:roll:hock:

Have you any comprehension of the requirements even to be considered for the type of degree courses that are just the first step on the way to achieving a position of the roles that you state above. Could an "idiot" speak for an hour at a seminar on any form of banking to an audience of professionals?

I took retirement in 2010 as Senior Head of Projects at the consultancy and spent my working life from early 30's onwards in the echelons of senior management and I know exactly what preparation it takes to speak for that amount of time at a seminar.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Am I missing something , don't the 185 doors close themselves but can be opened again until the guard locks them.

 

[ainsworth74]

Am I missing something , don't the 185 doors close themselves but can be opened again until the guard locks them.

Yup that's exactly what they do.

 

[absolutelymilk]

So when a young vulnerable girl drunk and on drugs puts her hands on the train window slips on her high heels, and gets dragged to her death, how will this German set up work?

Could you expand a bit more on what you mean here? Is this person inside the train to start with?

 

[ainsworth74]

Could you expand a bit more on what you mean here? Is this person inside the train to start with?

It's a reference to the horrible accident at James Street station a few years ago:

A railway guard has been jailed for five years for causing the death of a 16-year-old girl who went under a train at a Liverpool station.

Georgia Varley died when she fell between the carriage and platform at James Street station in October 2011.

Christopher McGee, 45, had denied manslaughter but was found guilty at Liverpool Crown Court on Wednesday.

Sentencing him, Mr Justice Holroyde said McGee had taken a "terrible risk" with Georgia's safety.

McGee signalled for the driver to depart as Georgia, who was drunk, stood on the platform leaning against the train.

During the two-week trial, the prosecution said McGee should have been able to see she was in an "intoxicated state".

He told the jury he did not know how drunk she had been and thought she was moving away from the train when he gave the signal to depart.

The jury unanimously found McGee, of Wallasey, Wirral, guilty of manslaughter by gross negligence.

Mr Justice Holroyde told him: "Georgia's life was ended in a dreadful way at the age of just 16 by your gross negligence.

"You did not intend to kill or even injure her, but you displayed an appalling disregard for her safety, and she paid for your criminal negligence with her life."

The judge added McGee, who had worked as a guard for Merseyrail since 1992, had "years of service and training", which was an aggravating feature of the crime.

"You must have known that a passenger who falls between the train and the platform is likely to be killed," he said.

Continues...

Source

 

[XC90]

RMT and ASLEF executives have signed a joint statement declaring no more DOO or DCO


That's like Nicola Sturgeon telling David Cameron there will be no more nuclear subs allowed at Faslane.

 

[Carlisle]

Am I missing something , don't the 185 doors close themselves but can be opened again until the guard locks them.

Don't most post privatisation units have this from of automatic door closing after a minute or two mainly as a way of keeping the heat inside etc?

 

[Jan]

As a data point in this discussion I would like to mention the situation in Germany where S-Bahn trains mostly (I think) only have the driver on board. Certainly the Munich S-Bahn with the ET423 trains uses a system of automatic dispatch in that the doors close automatically, but do not lock, 5 secs after the door sensors have last detected a person passing through the opening.

Those units had some teething troubles though (and in this instance, teething trouble unfortunately means accidents involving people being caught in the doors and dragged along the platform) which eventually led to the whole system having to be taken out of use until additional light barriers had been fitted [1]. Also, the system does have its limitation during the peak periods, especially in the central area: As train loadings increase and people start to pile up in the door areas, they start blocking the light barriers, so you either have to wait until everybody's cleared the immediate door areas, which means unacceptably long dwell times, or you have to go back to central door closing with somebody - either the driver or platform staff - having to make sure nobody's getting trapped in the doors.

Also, on some German rail forums, you can hear regular lamentations how dispatching is now taking longer than it used to with the old stock, with the subsequent hit to reliability this has brought along.

Quite recently, there's been an incident at Stuttgart where somebody died after having been caught in the doors and dragged along the platform, it'll be interesting to see how that will play out in the long run.

[1] If I remember correctly, with the original setup, the light barriers were only present at foot height, while with the new setup, they're now covering the full door height. If I've understood it correctly, the very latest rolling stock generation is now also including something similar to the "sensitive edge" on the new LU trains.

 

[coppercapped]

Those units had some teething troubles though (and in this instance, teething trouble unfortunately means accidents involving people being caught in the doors and dragged along the platform) which eventually led to the whole system having to be taken out of use until additional light barriers had been fitted [1]. Also, the system does have its limitation during the peak periods, especially in the central area: As train loadings increase and people start to pile up in the door areas, they start blocking the light barriers, so you either have to wait until everybody's cleared the immediate door areas, which means unacceptably long dwell times, or you have to go back to central door closing with somebody - either the driver or platform staff - having to make sure nobody's getting trapped in the doors.

Also, on some German rail forums, you can hear regular lamentations how dispatching is now taking longer than it used to with the old stock, with the subsequent hit to reliability this has brought along.

Quite recently, there's been an incident at Stuttgart where somebody died after having been caught in the doors and dragged along the platform, it'll be interesting to see how that will play out in the long run.

[1] If I remember correctly, with the original setup, the light barriers were only present at foot height, while with the new setup, they're now covering the full door height. If I've understood it correctly, the very latest rolling stock generation is now also including something similar to the "sensitive edge" on the new LU trains.

Yes, I was referring to the current set up which has a mesh of infra-red beams close to the doors running their full height, but without the "sensitive edge" doors. The original system was replaced after the Eisenbahnbundesamt, the Federal body which approves trains for service on the German railways, was taken to court by the State Prosecutor (I can't now remember whether it was a Land prosecutor or the Federal office) for permitting the use of an unsafe system. Apparently the accident statistics were collected on a Länder level and therefore similar accidents were not being recorded centrally so no overall picture emerged - and it was also alleged that the directorate for the S-Bahn in Munich had rigged the figures. The interesting thing is that it was not DBAG that was charged with procuring and using unsafe trains - but the approvals authority, a state body, for allowing their use.

Anyway it all got very unpleasant - but the long and short of it was that the trains were all re-fitted. The Eisenbahnbundesamt then seemed to get into defensive mode and as a result, at about the same a time as the doors story (around 2008-9), the ET423s had to have the braking system modified so that they could stop on snow and ice. Subsequent approvals for all new stock has got very delayed. As a further consequence, and because of the influence of the Technical Standards for Interoperability, approvals for new stock are having to be made on a European level, with the unstated reason that the Eisenbahnbundesamt is being taken out of the loop.

The effect in the UK of all this is that the IEP trains (Class 80x) are being approved via the new European system - although they will never turn a wheel anywhere else than the UK. And this system is impressively bureaucratic - think aerospace. In this context I remember a Boeing Aerospace engineer telling me many years ago when the company I worked for in Germany was shipping components for the E3 AWACS aircraft 'Robert, remember - for every pound of airplane, there are 7 pounds of paper...' Nowadays they are computer files - but the point remains!

One other point concerning the loading dwell times. I agree - this can be an issue during the peaks, but mostly the system works. A similar procedure is also used in tram networks - the doors only close when the top step is free which can cause slight hold-ups in Hannover when many foreign visitors are leaving one of the big exhibitions such as CeBit.

One design feature of the busiest S-Bahn stations in Munich (Hauptbahnhof, Stachus and Marienplatz) is that they have a disembarkation platform so the disembarking passengers do not clash with those trying to get on the trains. This really helps reduce congestion and dwell times although on a recent trip I did notice platform staff in the peak period asking people through the public address system to stand clear of the doors. As far as I could see these staff were only present on the stations between München Ost and the Hauptbahnhof, a total of 6 stations. The staff took no part in the actual train departure but acted more as human hustle buzzers!

 

[exile]

On our local line, we have DOO in effect after about 8pm, as most (but not all) guards make no attempt to collect fares (even though most stations are unstaffed at this time of night).

 

[BestWestern]

On our local line, we have DOO in effect after about 8pm, as most (but not all) guards make no attempt to collect fares (even though most stations are unstaffed at this time of night).

You don't; assuming the Guard is still on board dispatching the train you do at least have a proper, safe railway.

As for no tickets, it may be that there are issues with antisocial behaviour - or it may be that there is a culture of laziness. Guards should be walking the train regardless, tickets or not. Very rarely any excuse for staying in the back cab for the entire journey. Sadly, some fail to appreciate this

 

[455driver]

On our local line, we have DOO in effect after about 8pm, as most (but not all) guards make no attempt to collect fares (even though most stations are unstaffed at this time of night).

So you are saying the driver does the doors etc and is in sole control of the operation of the train!
Or have you just shown us all how little you know about rail operations?

 

[313103]

On our local line, we have DOO in effect after about 8pm, as most (but not all) guards make no attempt to collect fares (even though most stations are unstaffed at this time of night).

Can you tell me what the primary role of the Guard is in the area you live in? By this i mean i would like to know what the terms and conditions are that have been agreed with between the Train Operating company and the Guards.

By not having this information you can not possibly make such a accusation, if the Train Operating Company were concerned about revenue they would make sure it was done.

Which makes me think you are being mischievous at best.

 

[ainsworth74]

Though from a passengers perspective what's the difference between a DOO service and a service on which there is a guard but they don't appear in the train? Obviously there is a huge operational difference and a difference in safety but for the passenger?

 

[BestWestern]

Though from a passengers perspective what's the difference between a DOO service and a service on which their is a guard but they don't appear in the train? Obviously there is a huge operational difference and a difference in safety but for the passenger?

Both are equally poor for the passenger, nobody can deny that.

 

[Pumbaa]

There is none.

I've just moved from one route where by and large the Guards are excellent, and if they don't walk through the train, they will at least remain informative over the PA.

In comparison, I would have no sympathy if anyone made a case for DOO on my new route, as by and large the Guards are awful and rarely venture out of the back cab at any time of day, and rarely provide any information.

Tellingly when a Guard does appear, it is not unusual to hear passengers express surprise that there was anyone other than the driver aboard their trains.

 

[313103]

So in reality then the trains have all been DOO in one way or another because apart from Express trains, most trains built up to the 1970s were built in a way where the guard couldn't possibly do anything other then his role as a safety critical member of staff and also remember most of these trains were still running up to the mid 1990s.

Yet i still dont recall anyone upto that point wanting them to be got rid of or complain that they didnt see a Guard.

The modern railway terminology of calling the Guard a 'Conductor' has changed peoples perception because many people remember bus conductors and think the Guard is exactly the same as that. As i once told a Manager who was trying to convince me that a Conductor is the way forward, i said to him 'That if i wanted to be a Conductor, i would of joined London Transport and be a Bus Conductor'.

 

[Phil.]

To properly answer the guard question you must understand why the job of guard was created in the 19th century. Only then can you pick through the conductor/guard/person on train answer.

 

[HowardGWR]

There is none.

I've just moved from one route where by and large the Guards are excellent, and if they don't walk through the train, they will at least remain informative over the PA.

In comparison, I would have no sympathy if anyone made a case for DOO on my new route, as by and large the Guards are awful and rarely venture out of the back cab at any time of day, and rarely provide any information.

Tellingly when a Guard does appear, it is not unusual to hear passengers express surprise that there was anyone other than the driver aboard their trains.

Both you and @Exile have failed to mention about which route your are reporting. It makes it unfortunately rather uninteresting and it could be that both of you were were writing about the same one.
Why the secrecy?

 

[cjmillsnun]

To properly answer the guard question you must understand why the job of guard was created in the 19th century. Only then can you pick through the conductor/guard/person on train answer.

Indeed, and the word guard is the one that matters.

A guard's primary role is not revenue, nor announcements.. It is safety.

 

[Pumbaa]

Indeed, and the word guard is the one that matters.



A guard's primary role is not revenue, nor announcements.. It is safety.

Disagree - their role is to provide customer service, which includes operating the train safely, and how to deal with emergency and out of course situations.