Porterbrook to create Pacer demonstrator (now unveiled)

[Smudger105e]

Given the shortage of units you would think they would rush it out, especially as it hasn't had any mechanical work

But there will be staff training issues, eg how are the PIS screens operated, the destination displays, emergency operation of the toilet door etc etc.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

But there will be staff training issues, eg how are the PIS screens operated, the destination displays, emergency operation of the toilet door etc etc.

I'd heard on the grapevine that for drivers there's no difference between the e144 and standard units, but there is for guards which would tally with what you've said. Whether this training can be done entirely on depot or whether it requires training runs out is beyond my limited knowledge.

 

[Smudger105e]

The inputs for the PIS are made from the PA handset in the driver's cab.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The inputs for the PIS are made from the PA handset in the driver's cab.

Presumably the handset in the other cab is available for the guard to use? Especially given the number of services with reversals the unit is likely to run (Castleford, Bradford Interchange, Lancaster, Wakefield Kirkgate...).

Any further news on a return to traffic yet? Looking forward to trying it out!

 

[northwichcat]

Presumably the handset in the other cab is available for the guard to use? Especially given the number of services with reversals the unit is likely to run (Castleford, Bradford Interchange, Lancaster, Wakefield Kirkgate...).

I was under the impression this one would be given a designated diagram with someone previously suggesting it would be given the quietest Penistone Line diagram.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I was under the impression this one would be given a designated diagram with someone previously suggesting it would be given the quietest Penistone Line diagram.

That's possible, but aren't all the units used on Penistone line services sent to or from other routes at some point during the day? In any case the capacity isn't actually lower than any other 2-car pacer when standing spaces are taken into consideration. If it is dedicated anywhere I'd expect Huddersfield to Wakefield would be more likely, as during the school holidays loadings aren't so high there whereas Penistone gets pretty busy all day even when the schools are off.

 

[yorksrob]

Are Pennistone diagrams ever that quiet? It always seems to justify a 3 carriage 144 whenever I'm on there.

 

[northwichcat]

In any case the capacity isn't actually lower than any other 2-car pacer when standing spaces are taken into consideration.

Northern (and other franchised operators) are supposed to do their best to ensure that standing only occurs at weekday peak times. Obviously that's not possible on all services when DfT try to limit the number of additional carriages too much but they should at least be trying to find a quiet Pacer diagram for the ePacer to go on to.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Northern (and other franchised operators) are supposed to do their best to ensure that standing only occurs at weekday peak times. Obviously that's not possible on all services when DfT try to limit the number of additional carriages too much but they should at least be trying to find a quiet Pacer diagram for the ePacer to go on to.

I can only assume that TPE didn't get that memo...

The problem with trying to find a quiet diagram is that many services are interworked with others, so whilst the first duty might be quiet and even the second, sooner or later it's likely to get busy.

 

[edwin_m]

Some diagrams are quieter because at peak times they are off somewhere remote or working in the counter-peak direction.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Northern (and other franchised operators) are supposed to do their best to ensure that standing only occurs at weekday peak times.

I suppose that wording above that I have emboldened is really adhered to by the TOC, as for example on the Northern Rail peak-period Bolton to Manchester services for many years....

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Are Pennistone diagrams ever that quiet? It always seems to justify a 3 carriage 144 whenever I'm on there.

In recent weeks the 3-car 144s have become almost a permanent fixture on the Penistone line, though I'm not sure if that isn't down to luck rather than judgement. I can't recall when I last saw anything else on there... Then again, yesterday even the two units on the Wakefield shuttles were 15x (a 155 and a 150) but that was probably down to greater availability on weekends coupled with expected increased loadings due to the food festival in Huddersfield.

 

[northwichcat]

I can only assume that TPE didn't get that memo...

I suppose that wording above that I have emboldened is really adhered to by the TOC, as for example on the Northern Rail peak-period Bolton to Manchester services for many years....

The same target (set by DfT) doesn't apply for all services. If it's an off-peak train (including any weekend train) the operator is supposed to do whatever it can to prevent anyone having to stand.

Northern having 5 DMUs sat in Stockport sidings doing nothing on a Saturday while over 200 try to cram on to a single 142 running a Manchester service on a day when Man United are playing at home (like happened yesterday) is obviously not what the TOC are supposed to be doing.

For weekday peak times they are supposed to aim for no standing if there's more than 20 minutes between stations, or if there's less then they are supposed to have a maximum loading of no more than 1.35 times the number of seats. If the train has a FC section then that only applies to standard class. An exception applies for operators like London Overground who operate only short services with metro style interiors.

However, if the TOC are using as many trains as they can in the weekday peaks then they can't really do any more unless DfT agrees that they can have more carriages. TPE have a higher seat occupancy rate than London Overground, so it's pretty obvious TPE are severely short of carriages.

 

[Roy5tone]

Saw this passing through Leeds last Thursday 06.08.15 about 1130 looked like it was on crew training. Looked quite good would like to take a ride on it to compare with regular pacers

 

[Grumpy]

Is this thing in service yet? And if so is it in general use or restricted to a particular service?

 

[Wolfie]

However, if the TOC are using as many trains as they can in the weekday peaks then they can't really do any more unless DfT agrees that they can have more carriages. TPE have a higher seat occupancy rate than London Overground, so it's pretty obvious TPE are severely short of carriages.

Firstly, given that LO stock is maximised for capacity with a high proportion standing that is a flawed comparision. Secondly, the differences in train frequency between LO and PTE are so different that is a flawed comparison. Thirdly, the limited number of seats on LO trains are, even in the off-peak, virtually always all occupied so I would love to see any evidence for this assertion...

 

[northwichcat]

Firstly, given that LO stock is maximised for capacity with a high proportion standing that is a flawed comparision.

Agreed. However, it illustrates how bad TPE overcrowding is that on average it's easier to find an empty seat on a LO train than on a TPE train.

Thirdly, the limited number of seats on LO trains are, even in the off-peak, virtually always all occupied so I would love to see any evidence for this assertion...

Passenger Focus, Transport Focus or whatever they call themselves these days made the claim TPE have the highest seat occupancy level of any TOC (including non-DfT franchised ones) when responding to the TPE franchise consultation. There have been some changes in rolling stock since (6 x 156s replacing 5 x 170s.) Considering that's coming from an Independent Body representing passengers of all operators I don't think there's any incentive for them to provide misleading information. If they did then it may affect any argument for getting more LO carriages.

Do London Overground trains (including the 172s) usually have all seats occupied from start to end or do they fill up and empty out again, also is there a peak flow?

EDIT: Just found a YouTube video someone did of a 14:32 departure from Barking to Gospel Oak. I thought it was wrongly labelled as it looked like an ECS but then I saw a few passengers on it, so obviously very few passengers on services between their first two stations and a low seat occupancy level.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Is this thing in service yet? And if so is it in general use or restricted to a particular service?

I haven't seen it on my travels around West Yorkshire yet, and I have been looking... Given the apparent inflexible nature of Northern's "no growth" franchise it wouldn't surprise me if there's issues with finding time to train guards on the changes that have been made.

 

[geoffk]

I've seen it twice at the rear of Neville Hill depot. My contact at Northern was of the view that it would be used on the Penistone line. What are the changes which would affect guards? The doors have not been changed, I don't think.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I've seen it twice at the rear of Neville Hill depot. My contact at Northern was of the view that it would be used on the Penistone line. What are the changes which would affect guards? The doors have not been changed, I don't think.

I think it'd be the PIS and possibly the wheelchair ramp, along with evacuation of passengers who manage to become trapped in the new toilet!

 

[Darren R]

..along with evacuation of passengers who manage to become trapped in the new toilet!

Couldn't they evacuate themselves?

(Sorry, I'll get my coat.)

 

[Camden]

Passenger Focus, Transport Focus or whatever they call themselves these days made the claim TPE have the highest seat occupancy level of any TOC

Most services, even in London, have low seat occupancy at their outermost points.

On the subject of TPE crowding, the solution there of course is to buy more units so they don't run 3 carriage trains between major cities. Number of times I have travelled between Manchester and Liverpool and it has been busy as anything, and three carriages turn up. The collective sense of irritation on the platform as a short train pulls up is palpable not least heading from Liverpool to Manchester getting off the train (struggling to) as passengers heading to Yorkshire have to try and get on to a train that is already full.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Couldn't they evacuate themselves?

(Sorry, I'll get my coat.)

If they need help in that department, I'm not sure providing assistance is in a guard's job(bie) description...

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Considering that there are an inceasing number of trains on core Thameslink services and Southeastern with counted loads of over 1200 on an 8 car train - then the TPE argument falls over somewhat.

I deliberately got the all stations 0807 St Albans to Sevenoaks this am - a Friday - generally a bit quieter - there was a burst of commuter rage at Kentish Town as crowded trains + personal space angst , and a commuter got inadvertently clocked by someone trying to get down the aisle. This developed into a personal insult spat - which required some soothing words at Blackfriars. (to the "clocked" person who got very upset. I recommend the 0802 ex Beckenham TLK service via Catford for anyone , anywhere in the UK , who thinks they are hard done by. 2 x 387 for the record.

 

[northwichcat]

Considering that there are an inceasing number of trains on core Thameslink services and Southeastern with counted loads of over 1200 on an 8 car train - then the TPE argument falls over somewhat.

Seat occupancy level is the percentage of occupied seats (in standard class only if the service has first class.) If those services have 600 standard class seats, for instance, then the seat occupancy level is 100%. If it's 31st December and the same service only has 600 passengers then the seat occupancy level is still 100%. The number of standing passengers is completely irrelevant.

A list of the most overcrowded trains identifies specific services which need extra capacity at one specific time in the day. A list of seat occupancy levels identifies which services need extra capacity not just at specific times, making a better business case for extra capacity as you're not acquiring an extra train to strengthen weekday peak time services only.

Where TPE differs from most London commuter trains is there's no real counter-peak on some routes. You can get 100% seat occupancy on a service leaving Liverpool in the morning peak as well as 100% seat occupancy on a service arriving in Liverpool.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Train operators have to produce a "capacity plan" twice a year - based on actual (or on train counting mechanisms) - compared to the planned train consists.

I tell you - it makes some uncomfortable reading in the South East section.

There is something like 27,000 standees on a particular operator into a certain string of London terminii.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Train operators have to produce a "capacity plan" twice a year - based on actual (or on train counting mechanisms) - compared to the planned train consists.

I tell you - it makes some uncomfortable reading in the South East section.

There is something like 27,000 standees on a particular operator into a certain string of London terminii.

On one train...?

 

[northwichcat]

Train operators have to produce a "capacity plan" twice a year - based on actual (or on train counting mechanisms) - compared to the planned train consists.

I tell you - it makes some uncomfortable reading in the South East section.

There is something like 27,000 standees on a particular operator into a certain string of London terminii.

Like I said it was an independent passenger body who came up with the claim that TPE had the highest seat occupancy level but presumably they also come up with claims to support the fights of other franchises for additional/replacement rolling stock. For instance, using these stats: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29142300 you can claim LM have it worst because they occupy first and sixth spots but use them in a different manner you could argue FGW have it worst as they have more top 10 places than any other operator.

Completely off-topic why do LM offer below £20 advance Euston-Crewe fares for the most overcrowded service in the country when it's a peak departure from Euston?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I'd agree that comparison with LO is somewhat spurious, given the seating arrangements on 378s. However TPE differs from most former NSE operations due to the fact that there are several different destinations for peak services on TPE; for example a Hull to Manchester Piccadilly service arriving at Huddersfield in the morning peak will have as many disembarking as boarding due to many passengers from DEW and LDS heading to Huddersfield for work and study as there are heading to their jobs in Manchester.
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A quick addition, hopefully the double post prevention system will kick in, I had a trip out East of Leeds today hoping to see 012 parked up at Neville Hill. I could see no sign of it, so I assume it's either out on training/test or being stored undercover for some reason. I'll look again on my trip back from Micklefield...

 

[northwichcat]

Considering that there are an inceasing number of trains on core Thameslink services and Southeastern with counted loads of over 1200 on an 8 car train - then the TPE argument falls over somewhat.

Now we've got up-to-date stats the busiest recorded Thameslink service is the 07:24 Brighton to Bedford which records a load of 716 seated and 1,150 standing on arrival at London Blackfrairs, which gives a load factor of 161%, putting it on a par for overcrowding with the 18:00 Manchester Airport-Edinburgh and being less overcrowded than the 04:22 Glasgow Central-Man Airport and the 16:00 Man Airport-Edinburgh. No Southeastern services appear in the top 10 most overcrowded services.

Most overcrowded trains is being discussed here: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=120498 so it would be best to add any further discussion there.