Porterbrook to create Pacer demonstrator (now unveiled)

[Rhydgaled]

I think it's unlikely a new order of trains would be designated to certain routes, they would likely be mixed with 1980s Sprinters.

Or, the expensive new trains would be designated to busier longer-distance inter-urban services, with 1980s Sprinters cascaded to less-busy branch line type services. It rather depends on what sort of work the new trains would be designed for.

 

[northwichcat]

Or, the expensive new trains would be designated to busier longer-distance inter-urban services, with 1980s Sprinters cascaded to less-busy branch line type services. It rather depends on what sort of work the new trains would be designed for.

To meet the ITT requirements the released Scotrail 170s could easily be modified to meet the 'Regional Express' requirements and then if the winning bidder goes for that option the new DMUs could be for any routes. Alternatively, the new trains could be designed to meet the 'Regional Express' requirements and cascaded 170s could go on to other routes.

Over the past few years in the North Sprinters have gradually been replacing Pacers on rural branch lines, with doubled up Pacers replacing 2 car Sprinters on busy commuter routes, so the trains which replace Pacers up here need to be suitable for busy commuter routes. Something like the 172s would be ideal for Northern but if Northern were to get new trains like that I doubt they would all be allocated to Manchester area services or Leeds area services, in the way the LM 172s are allocated to Birmingham area services.

 

[Camden]

Thete are problems with that.

Gold paint, being metallic, is difficult to touch up. As regards the swimming pool, the water would splosh around and make the deep pile carpet wet lol

The thing is, is this Pacer better in lots of ways than a standard 144? Or would the customer prefer new trains if they were having to pay for them?

Customers are having to pay for them. Of course there is the thing about leasing costs, but factually aside from anomalies here and there (largely PTE funded) the rail fares in the areas where pacers run aren't bargain basement, but largely on a par to places with good trains. Plus (assuming we're talking about the north here) there is the additional cost of running diesel trains over electric ones. Everything from access costs to the cost of running it. Electric trains are on average massively cheaper than diesels to run. Factor in where track charges get spent... The customer (passenger) would probably like reasonable trains in accordance with the reasonable fares they already pay.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Are all existing Pacer classes in a condition where it'll be viable for them to have similar work done?

 

[D365]

Are all existing Pacer classes in a condition where it'll be viable for them to have similar work done?

It's been made clear that Angel Trains will not be modifying the Class 142 Pacers in time for the DDA compliance deadline, but whether that stops another group buying them up at scrap value is yet to be seen.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Customers are having to pay for them. Of course there is the thing about leasing costs, but factually aside from anomalies here and there (largely PTE funded) the rail fares in the areas where pacers run aren't bargain basement, but largely on a par to places with good trains.

I think that varies; PTE passes (which many people in PTE areas are using) are superb value compared with tickets in areas without PTEs.

There's also the heavy subsidies that go to Northern and ATW compared with elsewhere - those aren't caused by low fares, but by lower demand - there are a lot of costs (infrastructure, staff) that don't scale with the number of passengers, and thus a full and standing 2-car Pacer doesn't pay its way as well as a full-and-standing 12-car Desiro down South.

 

[Camden]

It isn't simply lower demand, but also higher costs due to the nature of the multitudes of ageing diesel rolling stock operated. Investment in modern rolling stock can reduce costs over the longer term.

There are some areas that have high demand, and these areas having the benefits of lower operating costs could just as easily see returns, particularly where the modern rolling stock and better services encourages patronage.

£1,844 for a Zones 1-4 Travelcard is exceptional value and I would argue easily "out values" your comparable tickets in other PTE areas.

A diesel train has an "other costs" (Energy Cost, Track Maintenance Cost, Electrification Fixed Equipment Maintenance Cost) cost per vehicle mile of 54p, versus 33p for electric. Add up the amount of diesel trains operated in the north and the sheer amount of miles they have to go to do their job versus the tight networks in the south, and not only can you see it's not something that shouldn't be compared like for like but also the financial benefits that mass electrification in key areas and modernisation could bring over the long term.

It's much too simplistic to say "newer stock means higher fares". In reality, it should be planned properly so that it means lower fares, more service for less money.

 

[Bletchleyite]

£1257 for an annual Merseytravel Trio. £1100 in TfGM, though not including Metrolink.

I guess they are broadly comparable - but there just isn't the same level of demand.

 

[Camden]

There's enough demand for there to be a continuing requirement to run services and, especially if it requires subsidy, there's little sense in keeping spending large sums through lack of modernisation, particularly if the modernisation can also drive more passengers to the system. You don't increase demand by running pacers once an hour and charging people full fare for the pleasure, and you don't increase the long term profitability.

 

[northwichcat]

I think that varies; PTE passes (which many people in PTE areas are using) are superb value compared with tickets in areas without PTEs.

Probably one reason why the evening peak restrictions were added in PTE areas.

Apparently the ATW franchise has very few profitable flows but Chester-Manchester and Manchester-Shrewsbury are exceptions despite the 175s being expensive to operate. That shows busy DMUs out of Manchester don't have to be loss making.

 

[noddingdonkey]

Just a thought - don't Northern have half of a 142 and half of a 144 (the undamaged vehicle after accidents) that could work together as a hybrid unit were it not for the fact that neither vehicle has a toilet?

Could adding an accessible bog module as in this refurb be a cost effective way to get an extra unit (even if it is a pacer) into traffic?

 

[transmanche]

Just a thought - don't Northern have half of a 142 and half of a 144 (the undamaged vehicle after accidents) that could work together as a hybrid unit were it not for the fact that neither vehicle has a toilet?

Could adding an accessible bog module as in this refurb be a cost effective way to get an extra unit (even if it is a pacer) into traffic?

Or they could leave it as it as and just run it on short-distance journeys.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Just a thought - don't Northern have half of a 142 and half of a 144 (the undamaged vehicle after accidents) that could work together as a hybrid unit were it not for the fact that neither vehicle has a toilet?

Could adding an accessible bog module as in this refurb be a cost effective way to get an extra unit (even if it is a pacer) into traffic?

The 144s are all currently still going, albeit after extensive rebuilds for a couple of vehicles one of which was a centre car anyway. Of the 142s that have bitten the dust, I assume the remains were stripped for spares. I think the same applies to the two 143s that spontaneously combusted.

 

[noddingdonkey]

I suspect that (putting it on short routes) would be easier said than done with the way diagrams interwork across different routes.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The 144s are all currently still going, albeit after extensive rebuilds for a couple of vehicles one of which was a centre car anyway. Of the 142s that have bitten the dust, I assume the remains were stripped for spares. I think the same applies to the two 143s that spontaneously combusted.

I'm sure there was a photo posted of a hybrid pacer, on Newton Heath possibly? It had just been coupled up to be able to conveniently shunt around the yard.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I suspect that (putting it on short routes) would be easier said than done with the way diagrams interwork across different routes.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm sure there was a photo posted of a hybrid pacer, on Newton Heath possibly? It had just been coupled up to be able to conveniently shunt around the yard.

All types of Pacer were designed to work in multiple with each other, and with all sprinters. I'm sure a hybrid could be created if ever it was required but I don't think it has ever happened in service thus far. What you describe might even have been connected with the removal for repair of the centre car from 144023 which was fire damaged near Rochdale in late 2013, as the unit was taken to Newton Heath after the fire.

 

[northwichcat]

ePacer reported as being returned to Northern today. It's expected to return to passenger service next week.

 

[theblackwatch]

ePacer reported as being returned to Northern today. It's expected to return to passenger service next week.

Was spotted at Leeds this evening on its way back to Neville Hill.

 

[yorksrob]

Well, I'll certainly be intrigued to try it out. Whether it's an improvement on the current 144 interior (which to be fair, was never the problem in the first place) remains to be seen.

 

[BurtonM]

I've just had a look at all the photos on hand again and noticed that the cycle storage thing is one of those 'wheel in the slot, secure with the quasi-seatbelt' things. On a 156 the belt is in the wrong place to be of any real use, but on this 144, it's not there at all...

 

[Andyh82]

If they want to run it in Northern's heartland rather than tucking it away in a corner, I assume they will need to run it in multiple with another pacer at all times, as I'm not aware of any single 153 workings in West Yorkshire.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

According to an interview in Rail Magazine it actually has capacity for four more passengers than a normal 144 due to standing space, so a 153 working isn't needed for the EvoPacer.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

If they want to run it in Northern's heartland rather than tucking it away in a corner, I assume they will need to run it in multiple with another pacer at all times, as I'm not aware of any single 153 workings in West Yorkshire.

According to an interview in Rail Magazine it actually has capacity for four more passengers than a normal 144 due to standing space, so a 153 working isn't needed for the EvoPacer.

I'd be expecting it to most likely be on the Huddersfield to Wakefield, Penistone line, or Wakefield Kirkgate to Knottingley (though the latter interwork with Leeds to Knottingley, so perhaps less likely there) but given Northern's "Random Unit Generator" policy, it might even show up on a semi-fast Sheffield!

 

[northwichcat]

According to an interview in Rail Magazine it actually has capacity for four more passengers than a normal 144 due to standing space, so a 153 working isn't needed for the EvoPacer.

But then Northern services are supposed to usually have enough seats for all passengers to sit outside the weekday peaks. That's probably why the Merseytravel Pacers and North West 150s retained 3+2 seating when being refurbished when all the Pacers and 150s operating in other areas went to 2+2 seating when being refurbished. So which diagrams never have more than 78 passengers during the off-peak period?

 

[crehld]

But then Northern services are supposed to usually have enough seats for all passengers to sit outside the weekday peaks.

Funniest thing I've heard all week!

 

[ARoo21]

ePacer reported as being returned to Northern today. It's expected to return to passenger service next week.

Correct, meant to be on testing I think

 

[61653 HTAFC]

But then Northern services are supposed to usually have enough seats for all passengers to sit outside the weekday peaks. That's probably why the Merseytravel Pacers and North West 150s retained 3+2 seating when being refurbished when all the Pacers and 150s operating in other areas went to 2+2 seating when being refurbished. So which diagrams never have more than 78 passengers during the off-peak period?

144s and Northern Spirit 142s went 3+2 to 2+2, and the Merseytravel refurbishment predates privatisation. Since then, they've only been refreshed and have never left what is now the Northern franchise area. All 150s except the former Wessex/Wales&West units retained 3+2 seating. In any case, I don't think the requirement you refer to is actually specified in either the Northern franchise agreement or in any PTE/ITA policy except as an aspiration.

 

[northwichcat]

All 150s except the former Wessex/Wales&West units retained 3+2 seating.

The ex-FNW 150s were the only 150s which have had a full refurbishment and not had 2+2 seating fitted during refurbishment.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Anyone know if this unit is out today?

 

[1D53]

It's not in traffic today and isn't expected to be all week.

 

[gazthomas]

Given the shortage of units you would think they would rush it out, especially as it hasn't had any mechanical work