Scotrail unit 156478's return to service

[northwichcat]

I can't find the thread about the Scotrail 156 which was flood damaged: http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/304/media/images/79887000/jpg/_79887962_79885113.jpg but it's been reported on wnxx that after spending £200,000 trying to fix 156478 the train has been written off as unrepairable.

That presumably means 9 x 156s will be released by Scotrail by December 2018 instead of 10 x 156s. Maybe an extra train will need to be added to the new train order placed by the Northern franchise winner?

 

[adrock1976]

According to my notes, 156478 is one of the 15 units fitted with the RETB equipment for use on the West Highland Line services.

My hypothesis of what could happen may be that Northern may still get the 10 units - the ones without the RETB fitted. Also, the RETB equipment from 156478 could be salvaged and installed into another 156 if need be. Alternatively, there may be no requirement just yet to do so if the 14 units with the RETB are still sufficient for the WHL services.

Also remember that 158s also venture on the Caledonian Railway Midcalder route in addition to the 156s, likewise the Glasgow Queen Street - Falkirk Grahamston service and the Glasgow Queen Street - Anniesland via Maryhill Park.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Is this the first 156 to bite the dust?

In the longer term, I think the plan for West Highland services is "scenic" 158s rather than 156s.

 

[bb21]

Which of the 156s are fitted with RETB equipment?

 

[Blindtraveler]

that seams like rather a lot of dosh to spend to then write it off?

 

[adrock1976]

Which of the 156s are fitted with RETB equipment?

156445
156447
156450
156453
156456
156457
156458
156465
156467
156474
156476
156478 Written off
156485
156493
156499
156500

All the above info I sourced from the abrail website a while ago.

 

[ginge8991]

What will happen to the unit, RETB fitted razorblades i'm assuming?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

What will happen to the unit, RETB fitted razorblades i'm assuming?

Anything that can't be stripped and salvaged for re-use will become a baked bean container I'd have thought, yes.

 

[route:oxford]

It's been reported on wnxx that after spending £200,000 trying to fix 156478 the train has been written off as unrepairable.

That presumably means 9 x 156s will be released by Scotrail by December 2018 instead of 10 x 156s. Maybe an extra train will need to be added to the new train order placed by the Northern franchise winner?

Perhaps the insurance company was unwilling to fund further work? Assuming that the unit was insured.

I wouldn't suggest razor blades quite so soon though.

It sounds like a pair of new Mk3(ish) DBSOs to me.

Alternatively a rebuild into a 156 centre car? If the electrics are all to Falkirk, perhaps something can be salvaged from a soon-to-be scrapped Pacer?

 

[Techniquest]

Wouldn't a centre car in a 156 need to be powered still? Even if not, there will still need to be a lot of new wiring, let alone all the other electronics too. I can't remember how bad the damage was when it hit the flood, so may not be worth even trying that.

An enormous task to convert them into DBSOs I would imagine too, is there enough demand for such things anyway?

 

[Tracked]

When does it get transferred to Northern?

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Wouldn't a centre car in a 156 need to be powered still? Even if not, there will still need to be a lot of new wiring, let alone all the other electronics too. I can't remember how bad the damage was when it hit the flood, so may not be worth even trying that.

An enormous task to convert them into DBSOs I would imagine too, is there enough demand for such things anyway?

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/f...gers-rescued-glasgow-train-drove-freak-flood/

Would the main breaker panel have been above the flood water?

 

[Strathclyder]

I can't find the thread about the Scotrail 156 which was flood damaged: http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/304/media/images/79887000/jpg/_79887962_79885113.jpg but it's been reported on wnxx that after spending £200,000 trying to fix 156478 the train has been written off as unrepairable.

That presumably means 9 x 156s will be released by Scotrail by December 2018 instead of 10 x 156s. Maybe an extra train will need to be added to the new train order placed by the Northern franchise winner?

This is the thread in question (I think):
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=111142

Couldn't really see this getting repaired. It was up to it's headlights in floodwater...

 

[dubscottie]

Original thread here..

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=109831

I wonder if the body shells will be kept in case of one getting collision damage?

 

[RobShipway]

It was very likely that it would get written off due to the amount of water that got into the train.

I am sure I read somewhere that trains be they diesel or electric can with stand water to above the wheels, but if the water is higher than that point then the train i likely to be write off.

 

[D365]

It was very likely that it would get written off due to the amount of water that got into the train.

I am sure I read somewhere that trains be they diesel or electric can with stand water to above the wheels, but if the water is higher than that point then the train i likely to be write off.

The Class 314s that were far more severely submerged in December 1994, they were restored to service...

 

[dubscottie]

It was very likely that it would get written off due to the amount of water that got into the train.

I am sure I read somewhere that trains be they diesel or electric can with stand water to above the wheels, but if the water is higher than that point then the train i likely to be write off.

I have a hand book from a Irish 071 and the are not to go through water that's 2ft above the running rails... At any speed.

I think the 314 was saved as they were starting the refurbishment of them and there were spare "bits" that could be pulled from long stored class 507/508's.

If it was in static water then the fuel would have got into every bit of the body so it would be a case of back to bare metal and starting again.

Think about it (and forget the costs) .. If your car was caught in a flood up to its headlights, what would need replaced?


Water damage is the second worst sort of damage (after fire) as everything that's not solid steel needs replaced.

The things like laminated interior panels will start to separate even after they have dried out, copper contacts corrode, the list is endless! The engine components would be shot also (as they found with sea planes).

A red hot engine going into cold water makes it crack or warp.

 

[RobShipway]

I have a hand book from a Irish 071 and the are not to go through water that's 2ft above the running rails... At any speed.

I think the 314 was saved as they were starting the refurbishment of them and there were spare "bits" that could be pulled from long stored class 507/508's.

If it was in static water then the fuel would have got into every bit of the body so it would be a case of back to bare metal and starting again.

Think about it (and forget the costs) .. If your car was caught in a flood up to its headlights, what would need replaced?


Water damage is the second worst sort of damage (after fire) as everything that's not solid steel needs replaced.

The things like laminated interior panels will start to separate even after they have dried out, copper contacts corrode, the list is endless! The engine components would be shot also (as they found with sea planes).

A red hot engine going into cold water makes it crack or warp.

Your comment above is what I was taking into account when I said that it was very likely that the class 156 would be written off.

 

[59CosG95]

So I can assume then that 478 will be looking very sorry for itself outside Corkerhill for a while yet, as ScotRail salvage spare parts from it...

 

[sprinterguy]

Is this the first 156 to bite the dust?

Indeed it is, which is quite notable seeing as a couple of units have been returned to service after substantial accident damage, most prominently the two derailments and collisions on the S&C in 1995 (156490) and 1999 (156489) respectively. Of course, water ingress is quite a different issue to collision damage though.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Any idea how far they got with the attempted repair?

 

[OpsWeb]

In line with most asset heavy industries, Scotrail self-insure against things like this (they have public liability insurance for staff and customers but none against loss or damage of assets).

Apparently its quite common for certain industries to self-insure as its cheaper to pay for repairs / damage out of your own bank when they occur rather than pay for insurance cover.

So it might just be that contractually, it is cheaper for Scotrail to pay the owners for a "total loss" of a unit, rather than trying to repair at there own expense.

 

[Emblematic]

In line with most asset heavy industries, Scotrail self-insure against things like this (they have public liability insurance for staff and customers but none against loss or damage of assets).

Apparently its quite common for certain industries to self-insure as its cheaper to pay for repairs / damage out of your own bank when they occur rather than pay for insurance cover.

So it might just be that contractually, it is cheaper for Scotrail to pay the owners for a "total loss" of a unit, rather than trying to repair at there own expense.

Whilst BR used to self insure, it would be exceptional for a TOC to be permitted to act as insurer for their leased assets. Typically the ROSCO procures insurance, and recovers the premiums from the TOC as part of the lease arrangement. This protects the ROSCO assets with least risk and zero cost. Even government operators owning their own stock seem to insure commercially nowadays, I assume because private finance insists upon it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In line with most asset heavy industries, Scotrail self-insure against things like this (they have public liability insurance for staff and customers but none against loss or damage of assets).

Apparently its quite common for certain industries to self-insure as its cheaper to pay for repairs / damage out of your own bank when they occur rather than pay for insurance cover.

So it might just be that contractually, it is cheaper for Scotrail to pay the owners for a "total loss" of a unit, rather than trying to repair at there own expense.

Whilst BR used to self insure, it would be exceptional for a TOC to be permitted to act as insurer for their leased assets. Typically the ROSCO procures insurance, and recovers the premiums from the TOC as part of the lease arrangement. This protects the ROSCO assets with least risk and zero cost. Even government operators owning their own stock seem to insure commercially nowadays, I assume because private finance insists upon it.

 

[G_A_C_C_C]

This I one of my last two 156's. I've been in this position for almost 20years....can't believe it....

 

[WillPS]

Indeed it is, which is quite notable seeing as a couple of units have been returned to service after substantial accident damage, most prominently the two derailments and collisions on the S&C in 1995 (156490) and 1999 (156489) respectively. Of course, water ingress is quite a different issue to collision damage though.

There was also a pretty massive accident involving an NXEA one at the end of their franchise, too.

 

[devinier]

Surely it will be Angel Trains, or Porterbrook, (whoever owns it) who decide on this units
fate ?

 

[Bevan Price]

Several Stagecoach Dennis Dart buses were "written off" after floods at Carlisle a few years ago. However, I think that many (or all) later reappeared at other Stagecoach depots after extensive refurbishment.

So, whilst 156.478 may not be repaired by / for Scotrail, that does not mean that it might not reappear elsewhere in future. Bodywork repairs would be no more complicated than the total interior strip-out as seen in progress on a 158 at Newton Heath open day a few years ago.

Presumably there are spare engines for 156s, but repairing / replacing damaged "electric components" might be more difficult.

 

[fgwrich]

Several Stagecoach Dennis Dart buses were "written off" after floods at Carlisle a few years ago. However, I think that many (or all) later reappeared at other Stagecoach depots after extensive refurbishment.

So, whilst 156.478 may not be repaired by / for Scotrail, that does not mean that it might not reappear elsewhere in future. Bodywork repairs would be no more complicated than the total interior strip-out as seen in progress on a 158 at Newton Heath open day a few years ago.

Presumably there are spare engines for 156s, but repairing / replacing damaged "electric components" might be more difficult.

Indeed. Rather than confining it's fate to Wilkinson Sword, could it at least be saved to be used as a demo vehicle for further future MODs or refurbishments to the Class 156 Fleet? Air Con, New Seats, New or replaced Electricals etc...

As an aside, depending on how badly damaged it is to it's repairable value, I would consider looking into any of the franchises whom currently operate 156s and look at a 150/9 type of conversion to it - the damaged cars acting as the remains of 150209 do with FGW, split into 2 other Sprinters to create a semi permanent 3 car unit.

 

[Bevan Price]

Indeed. Rather than confining it's fate to Wilkinson Sword, could it at least be saved to be used as a demo vehicle for further future MODs or refurbishments to the Class 156 Fleet? Air Con, New Seats, New or replaced Electricals etc...

As an aside, depending on how badly damaged it is to it's repairable value, I would consider looking into any of the franchises whom currently operate 156s and look at a 150/9 type of conversion to it - the damaged cars acting as the remains of 150209 do with FGW, split into 2 other Sprinters to create a semi permanent 3 car unit.

Or maybe they could couple the least damaged coach to a 153, to form a semi-permanent 2 car unit for Northern or East Midland.

 

[route:oxford]

Several Stagecoach Dennis Dart buses were "written off" after floods at Carlisle a few years ago. However, I think that many (or all) later reappeared at other Stagecoach depots after extensive refurbishment.

So, whilst 156.478 may not be repaired by / for Scotrail, that does not mean that it might not reappear elsewhere in future. Bodywork repairs would be no more complicated than the total interior strip-out as seen in progress on a 158 at Newton Heath open day a few years ago.

Presumably there are spare engines for 156s, but repairing / replacing damaged "electric components" might be more difficult.

Would electric components really be that hard?

Essentially, and I appreciate that it is oversimplifying things a little, all that would really need to be done is to rebuild it as a 170 (or 172) in a 156 shell. The two units are compatible

Just wondering how a 156 would accelerate with an extra 400 or so hp. (If such engines were still available).