Severe ticketing fault (Sailrail)

[Bletchleyite]

In my own view, it depends how late in the day they left it. If it was late enough such that the journey wasn't possible then that is surely their own fault.

Er, surely then there would be no point in that clause in the Off Peak T&Cs? There aren't a lot of journeys you can't do in one day if you start early enough, and the few that there are could presumably have only Anytime fares capped out at a sensible level. Should starting at 04mumble be mandatory?

 

[34D]

Yes, but there is a different fare for the day sailing (£10 cheaper). The ticket specifies in its "Route" section whether it's valid for the day or night sailing. You also get a separate coupon with the ferry reservation.

That's cleared that one up then. Though a tunnel would allow later quicker journeys.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Er, surely then there would be no point in that clause in the Off Peak T&Cs? There aren't a lot of journeys you can't do in one day if you start early enough, and the few that there are could presumably have only Anytime fares capped out at a sensible level. Should starting at 04mumble be mandatory?

Indeed. This is the crux of the question we appear to have commenced discussion of: can one start irresponsibly late in the day and yet still claim it is 'not possible to complete the journey in a day'.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed. This is the crux of the question we appear to have commenced discussion of: can one start irresponsibly late in the day and yet still claim it is 'not possible to complete the journey in a day'.

The problem is what's "irresponsibly late in the day".

I'd rather they changed the wording so it was 100% clear what was meant, personally. One of these must IMO codify it.

1. One overnight break of journey is permitted at the passengers' option. (In which case I'd just go the whole hog and show validity as two days)

2. Break of journey is permitted overnight only if it is not possible to complete the journey in one day. If it is possible, passengers must begin their journey early enough to complete it on that day.

3. As 2 but with the addition of ", unless using a Sleeper service."

If it's (2) or (3), I'd suggest just getting rid of the Off Peak tickets entirely on those flows, replacing with Anytimes at the Off Peak price. Such journeys tend to have unrestricted Off Peaks anyway.

If it's (3) it must surely be possible to make it clear by requiring tickets to be endorsed on board Sleeper services for a second day of validity.

 

[andrewkeith5]

If it's (2) or (3), I'd suggest just getting rid of the Off Peak tickets entirely on those flows, replacing with Anytimes at the Off Peak price. Such journeys tend to have unrestricted Off Peaks anyway

The difficult bit about this particular part is that any journey that involves a change of trains can be made late enough that it can't be completed in a day.

And even that that's assuming that we aren't taking into account disruption to the network, for which a whole raft of new terms would have to be agreed.

I like the idea of the way the Paris metro tickets work - you buy a ticket and it's valid for one Journey - doesn't matter which day you use it, just one journey. When it's spent, the ticket barriers stamp it with the date and time it's spent.

A similar implementation here would just see the back of the ticket visually stamped with the date and time of entry/exit at all relevant stations - thus there would be no arguments over remaining validity.

 

[34D]

The difficult bit about this particular part is that any journey that involves a change of trains can be made late enough that it can't be completed in a day.

Indeed. As far as I know, the phrase 'not possible to complete' in NRCOC isn't explained further. Ie we don't know whether we are allowed to start at a silly late time or not.

 

[andrewkeith5]

Indeed. As far as I know, the phrase 'not possible to complete' in NRCOC isn't explained further. Ie we don't know whether we are allowed to start at a silly late time or not.

Well indeed. If the first train is running and you have a valid ticket there is nothing stopping you from starting the journey and not realising that it can't be completed.

The TOC isn't losing out through a journey being completed overnight in reality, potentially unless the continuation is during peak time but it's not likely to be something that a commuter is going to try and use as a loophole, so it doesn't seem unreasonable to allow it and it will save a whole load of problems from having to be dealt with in the long run to just allow the journey to continue overnight.

 

[Muzer]

The problem is what's "irresponsibly late in the day".

I'd rather they changed the wording so it was 100% clear what was meant, personally. One of these must IMO codify it.

1. One overnight break of journey is permitted at the passengers' option. (In which case I'd just go the whole hog and show validity as two days)

2. Break of journey is permitted overnight only if it is not possible to complete the journey in one day. If it is possible, passengers must begin their journey early enough to complete it on that day.

3. As 2 but with the addition of ", unless using a Sleeper service."

If it's (2) or (3), I'd suggest just getting rid of the Off Peak tickets entirely on those flows, replacing with Anytimes at the Off Peak price. Such journeys tend to have unrestricted Off Peaks anyway.

If it's (3) it must surely be possible to make it clear by requiring tickets to be endorsed on board Sleeper services for a second day of validity.

Surely there's a fourth option, which would be the one I would go for: If it's not possible to complete the journey in one day, from whichever train the passenger chooses to use to commence the journey. (Perhaps word it a bit better.)

 

[bb21]

The problem is what's "irresponsibly late in the day".

I'd rather they changed the wording so it was 100% clear what was meant, personally. One of these must IMO codify it.

1. One overnight break of journey is permitted at the passengers' option. (In which case I'd just go the whole hog and show validity as two days)

2. Break of journey is permitted overnight only if it is not possible to complete the journey in one day. If it is possible, passengers must begin their journey early enough to complete it on that day.

3. As 2 but with the addition of ", unless using a Sleeper service."

If it's (2) or (3), I'd suggest just getting rid of the Off Peak tickets entirely on those flows, replacing with Anytimes at the Off Peak price. Such journeys tend to have unrestricted Off Peaks anyway.

If it's (3) it must surely be possible to make it clear by requiring tickets to be endorsed on board Sleeper services for a second day of validity.

Neil, I can't say I agree with you on this.

(1) will be very unlikely to happen, and (2) and (3) are both extremely anti-passenger.

To give you a real life example. Once I planned to get away with a friend after my Friday afternoon tutorials to Newquay for the bank holiday weekend. If I left Leicester after my tutorials it would not have been possible for me to get to Newquay that day without paying for a taxi from St Austell. My friend lived in London so I just stayed with him overnight, and we went together to Newquay on Saturday. All this was done on a Leicester - Newquay Super Off-Peak Return. Under your proposal, I would have either had to leave my students uncatered for for their two sessions, pay over the odds for an Anytime Return, or buy two separate tickets. Why should I be penalised for doing something that is entirely reasonable?

(Of course, they could just re-price the Anytime Return at (Super) Off-Peak prices, but you know as well as I do that it is not going to happen without an entire recast of the fares system.)

The current situation is not perfect, but as I mentioned earlier, I don't think there is a problem with the current system in this particular respect, and I get the feeling that we are proposing solutions for something that is not actually broken.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surely there's a fourth option, which would be the one I would go for: If it's not possible to complete the journey in one day, from whichever train the passenger chooses to use to commence the journey. (Perhaps word it a bit better.)

Yes, I missed that one. That would also be an option, but it isn't really substantially different from "valid for two days", as it means one can choose trains to force a break.

I do think, as with the "ON DATE SHOWN" issue, that this is something that is defined in a pointlessly confusing, open to interpretation way. Rules (and for that matter laws, which are often terrible for this kind of thing) should always be clear and never open to interpretation, in my view.

 

[IanD]

and (2) and (3) are both extremely anti-passenger.

Wouldn't expect anything else

 

[cookie365]

By `irresponsibly late' and 'silly time' I assume posters mean to say 'the time that the passenger finds convenient to start their journey'?

 

[najaB]

By `irresponsibly late' and 'silly time' I assume posters mean to say 'the time that the passenger finds convenient to start their journey'?

That's also the way I'm reading it.

 

[gray1404]

I would like to echo the points of the other posters to please report the Merseyrail situation to them, if you are unhappy please get Transport Focus involved. Same does for Virgin Trains, it was not acceptable on their part either for trying to get you to buy a new ticket.

I find it most concerning that you, and another poster in this thread (to whom it has happened twice) have had to British Transport Police called by Merseyrail even though you have a valid ticket. Those comments about your nationality could, depending on what was said, amount to discrimination and this is totally unacceptable and should be challenged.

You missed the 0747 departure. I am therefore assuming that you caught the 0847 and that would have resulted in a delay of one hour to your journey. Regardless of the fact you made your flight, that is a separate contract. Personally, I would be looking at compensation for the delay/breach of contract because your perfectly valid ticket was not honoured without let or hindrance.

Please can you report back here to let us know how to get on and I am positive, and I know others on here will not mind me saying in the slightest, that if you need any help with any complaint emails etc then you only have to ask.

I am so sorry this has happened to you in Britain and trust you will visit us again!

 

[gray1404]

Forgot to add: the fact that a PF was mentioned by Merseyrail and that the person wanted to issue one implies to me it was a RPI (not a general gateline member of staff)

 

[Muzer]

Yes, I missed that one. That would also be an option, but it isn't really substantially different from "valid for two days", as it means one can choose trains to force a break.

I do think, as with the "ON DATE SHOWN" issue, that this is something that is defined in a pointlessly confusing, open to interpretation way. Rules (and for that matter laws, which are often terrible for this kind of thing) should always be clear and never open to interpretation, in my view.

Not for journeys where the last train in the correct direction gets you to the destination, which would apply to many (admittedly not all) short journeys where overnight break of journey would indeed by unreasonable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not for journeys where the last train in the correct direction gets you to the destination, which would apply to many (admittedly not all) short journeys where overnight break of journey would indeed by unreasonable.

Such journeys should only have Day Singles and Day Returns, though, surely?

 

[Muzer]

Good point.