Severe ticketing fault (Sailrail)

[furlong]

Such tickets, however, do not have "ON DATE SHOWN" in the Valid: field. Only day singles/day returns/day rangers do, and all of those are only valid on that railway day.

Why would "ON DATE SHOWN" preclude completion of the journey on the following day where necessary? Aberdeen to London Terminals Super Off-Peak Single (restriction code 1K)?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why would "ON DATE SHOWN" preclude completion of the journey on the following day where necessary? Aberdeen to London Terminals Super Off-Peak Single (restriction code 1K)?

So it does (you are the first one to provide a relevant example, so thanks for that ). I stand corrected, but still think it is rather silly and confusing.

 

[bkhtele]

Unlike the anytime return the Cairnryan ticket has exactly the same problem and is a day single. Clearly if you travel on the 3.30pm Sailing from Belfast you will struggle to be in Wiltshire by a reasonable train, Penanzance would be impossible. Last I used the overnight sleeper to Euston & the next morning onto Didcot Parkway. I had no problems at Euston or Paddington! This should be changed to an anytime single!

 

[najaB]

Even if it is correct in terms of procedure, it is utterly nonsensical in practical terms and is actively confusing, and as such should be fixed.

I agree that anything that makes matters clearer is good, however I've travelled many times on Sail Rail tickets (and Sleepers) and I'm yet to experience anything similar to the problem that the OP encountered. To me, at least, this indicates that it isn't as big a problem as your posts indicate that it is and that the majority of railway staff treat the tickets with a common sense approach.

Again to my way of thinking, it is easier, cheaper and faster to retrain/inform the minority who do not. As we have already seen, even if tickets are correctly printed, that same minority often decide that they know better.

 

[34D]

Why would "ON DATE SHOWN" preclude completion of the journey on the following day where necessary? Aberdeen to London Terminals Super Off-Peak Single (restriction code 1K)?

I suggest that if you formed a separate thread to ask whether you can have a voluntary BOJ overnight on this ticket the consensus would be no.

Is this ticket sold at Aberdeen ticket office after the departure of 1M16?

 

[najaB]

Is this ticket sold at Aberdeen ticket office after the departure of 1M16?

Don't know about the ticket office, but I'm pretty sure it would be sold by the TVM, but I'm not in Aberdeen any time soon to test this. Anybody able to give it a go?

 

[34D]

Don't know about the ticket office, but I'm pretty sure it would be sold by the TVM, but I'm not in Aberdeen any time soon to test this. Anybody able to give it a go?

So 21:43.

Let's leave the TVM out of this, as there are many tickets that TVM's offer when a human wouldn't.

 

[najaB]

So 21:43.

Let's leave the TVM out of this, as there are many tickets that TVM's offer when a human wouldn't.

Ticket office closes at 21:30 according to the NRE website. So no way to test it.

 

[furlong]

I suggest that if you formed a separate thread to ask whether you can have a voluntary BOJ overnight on this ticket the consensus would be no.

(I'm curious what makes you think the forum consensus would get this wrong.)

 

[Greenback]

I am of the opinion that there is nothing wrong with the ticket. Some staff just need to be properly trained and remember what they are taught.

SailRail tickets are the only exception I can think so it is not as if it is that difficult to point out during training.

And attitude, most importantly. There will always be exceptions so hey just need to have the right attitude towards these situations.

I agree completely. This incident screams a lack of knowledge to me. As for attitude, the employee has failed that test completely if the OP is accurately reporting what happened. Even if there was provocation, which I doubt, that isn't an excuse.

Secondly, it is valid only on the overnight boat which leaves Belfast on Day 1 and arrives Liverpool on Day 2 so is quite obviously valid on two dates. Why should any 'railway people' have well founded concerns about such an simple thing ?

I agree again. I can only conclude that the member of staff had never heard of SailRail, had no idea where Dublin is, or how one gets from there to Liverpool. It's often the case that people become uncomfortable when confronted with evidence of their lack of knowledge, which can then make them defensive and aggressive.

I think that's likely to be what happened here. I am not excusing the behaviour by the way, merely suggesting a possible explanation for it.

 

[najaB]

I I agree again. I can only conclude that the member of staff had never heard of SailRail, had no idea where Dublin is, or how one gets from there to Liverpool.

*Belfast.

 

[34D]

Ticket office closes at 21:30 according to the NRE website. So no way to test it.

Euston ticket office after 21:15 then? Departure time of 1S25 up highland sleeper.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

(I'm curious what makes you think the forum consensus would get this wrong.)

Start a thread, make no reference to this thread, and see what comments others make.

I am very happy to be wrong: either way I will enjoy the high quality debate and reasoned discussion that this forum is known for.

 

[najaB]

Euston ticket office after 21:15 then? Departure time of 1S25 up highland sleeper.

Would it not be valid to start your journey on the up lowland?

 

[Bletchleyite]

True.

I have encountered ticket offices refusing to sell day returns where a return journey wasn't possible that day and the return was cheaper than the single, FWIW.

 

[Greenback]

*Belfast.

Oh dear. I wanted to type Belfast, then for some reason, I put Dublin I do get these moment so of idiocy from time to time. I put it down to middle age.

 

[Bavarian]

I suggest that if you formed a separate thread to ask whether you can have a voluntary BOJ overnight on this ticket the consensus would be no.

Virgin's booking system actually informed me quite clearly that a BoJ was not allowed with this ticket. I can still see this remark when I access the booking in my account history.

Which leads to another question: as I said, without that incident I could have easily made the 0747 to London (ferry arrival right on time, smooth transfer to Hamilton Sq). Now, what if I had decided just to stay in Liverpool for another hour (e.g. to have breakfast). Technically, this would've been an illegal BoJ then, wouldn't it? Or what if I had stayed in London for, like, three hours before continuing to Gatwick?

The ticket not being an Advance, so no mandatory reservations to show at inspection, there would hardly be any way to prove the BoJ, would there?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The ticket not being an Advance, so no mandatory reservations to show at inspection, there would hardly be any way to prove the BoJ, would there?

Indeed not. So far as my experience goes, a short same-day break of journey (such as for a meal or to pop out to the shops between trains, even if you then drop back an hour or so) can always be "got away with" if you have to change trains somewhere, even if it is not permitted officially.

 

[34D]

Would it not be valid to start your journey on the up lowland?

This is the question: your second train (changing in Edinburgh or Glasgow) would be a different day.

 

[Deerfold]

Virgin's booking system actually informed me quite clearly that a BoJ was not allowed with this ticket. I can still see this remark when I access the booking in my account history.

Which leads to another question: as I said, without that incident I could have easily made the 0747 to London (ferry arrival right on time, smooth transfer to Hamilton Sq). Now, what if I had decided just to stay in Liverpool for another hour (e.g. to have breakfast). Technically, this would've been an illegal BoJ then, wouldn't it? Or what if I had stayed in London for, like, three hours before continuing to Gatwick?

The ticket not being an Advance, so no mandatory reservations to show at inspection, there would hardly be any way to prove the BoJ, would there?

If you'd stayed on railway property to have breakfast that would not have been a BoJ.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is the question: your second train (changing in Edinburgh or Glasgow) would be a different day.

Yes you are allowed to do this on an Off Peak Single or half an Off Peak Return, and I have done (Sleeper to Scotland thence connection to Wick or similar).

The question is whether you could *start* your journey on day 2, isn't it?

 

[DEE-DE]

If you'd stayed on railway property to have breakfast that would not have been a BoJ.

Different route, but same validity. So are you saying that instead of something like this (am thinking of doing this, though possibly bought in Ireland as it seems that they can add Irish parts to this ticket:
09:00 Rosslare Europort
12:30 13:29 Fishguard Harbour
15:58 16:21 Cardiff Central
18:43 19:09 Crewe
22:22 23:08 Edinburgh
00:40 Dundee

It is possible to do this:
09:00 Rosslare Europort
12:30 13:29 Fishguard Harbour
15:58 17:16 Cardiff Central
19:09 19:52 Shrewsbury
20:22 23:56 Crewe
06:08 Dundee

But not stay onboard the 17:16 from Cardiff until Chester by buying two tickets from Shrewsbury to Chester and Chester to Crewe as this would be a break of journey?

 

[RochdalePioneers]

An interesting round the houses discussion. But putting it simp!y the single tickets out of Belfast are coded Anytime DAY single - which means no travel after 04:29 on Day 2...

 

[najaB]

An interesting round the houses discussion. But putting it simp!y the single tickets out of Belfast are coded Anytime DAY single - which means no travel after 04:29 on Day 2...

Only on the Cairnryan route.

 

[34D]

Yes you are allowed to do this on an Off Peak Single or half an Off Peak Return, and I have done (Sleeper to Scotland thence connection to Wick or similar).

The question is whether you could *start* your journey on day 2, isn't it?

No that's not the question at all. The question is whether the "ON DATE SHOWN" on an Aberdeen to London Terminals (or vice versa) Super Off-Peak Single (restriction code 1K) means that all travel must be completed by 04:29 the next day or whether one can insert voluntary breaks and travel later than 04:29.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No that's not the question at all. The question is whether the "ON DATE SHOWN" on an Aberdeen to London Terminals (or vice versa) Super Off-Peak Single (restriction code 1K) means that all travel must be completed by 04:29 the next day or whether one can insert voluntary breaks and travel later than 04:29.

*Voluntary* breaks I think are questionable per the wording of the T&C (though Yorkie has posted before that the wording in the Manual suggests such things should be looked at sympathetically). Breaks enforced by running out of trains somewhere en-route then staying overnight as required are definitely allowed, and I can't see anyone objecting to a break at a sensible location where hotels are likely to be available rather than the middle of nowhere based on where the trains actually run out, nor to restarting at a sensible time e.g. after breakfast rather than 04mumble.

The wording is thus:

Off-Peak Singles and the outward portion of Off-Peak Returns are valid for travel on the date shown on the ticket and until 04:29 the following morning. If the journey cannot be completed in this time, the ticket may be used to continue the journey on the following day. Unless otherwise indicated in the relevant restriction code, time restrictions apply as from the initial origin station on both days. The appropriate restrictions for the actual day on which travel is being undertaken apply (for example, it may be that if day 1 is on Sunday, no restrictions apply, but on day 2, the Monday-Friday restrictions apply). All travel must be completed by 04:29 in the morning after this second day. Please note that break of journey is not permitted on some journeys, as detailed in the ticket restrictions.

Indeed, the fact that it seems all Off Peak Singles and Super Off Peak Singles show "ON DATE SHOWN" confirm the opinion counter to my original view that they can be valid on the day after as well. Though I personally think this is unnecessarily confusing and should be changed to something more sensible reflecting the actual situation.

 

[34D]

*Voluntary* breaks I think are questionable per the wording of the T&C (though Yorkie has posted before that the wording in the Manual suggests such things should be looked at sympathetically). Breaks enforced by running out of trains somewhere en-route then staying overnight as required are definitely allowed, and I can't see anyone objecting to a break at a sensible location where hotels are likely to be available rather than the middle of nowhere based on where the trains actually run out, nor to restarting at a sensible time e.g. after breakfast rather than 04mumble.

The wording is thus:


Indeed, the fact that it seems all Off Peak Singles and Super Off Peak Singles show "ON DATE SHOWN" confirm the opinion counter to my original view that they can be valid on the day after as well. Though I personally think this is unnecessarily confusing and should be changed to something more sensible reflecting the actual situation.

Yes. Look at leeds to london and you will see that the anytime single has 'two days' and the super off peak single has 'on date shown'.

This suggests to me that my journey must be completed by 04mumble on the latter but if I want a voluntary overnight break I can pay the extra £16 for the latter.

 

[najaB]

This suggests to me that my journey must be completed by 04mumble on the latter but if I want a voluntary overnight break I can pay the extra £16 for the latter.

I agree that paying for the Anytime single gives one the right to a voluntary break of journey, however I don't agree that you don't have the right to continue your journey (at a reasonable time) on the second day if it isn't possible to complete the journey in a single day while travelling on other single tickets.

Bringing it back to the issues the OP faced: I find it unreasonable to say that, having boarded a train that departed Belfast at 2230 and arrived at Birkenhead at 0630, it was in any way unreasonable to continue his journey on a train that left Liverpool at 0747, having made no break of journey, in accordance with the itinerary provided at time of booking.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Bringing it back to the issues the OP faced: I find it unreasonable to say that, having boarded a train that departed Belfast at 2230 and arrived at Birkenhead at 0630, it was in any way unreasonable to continue his journey on a train that left Liverpool at 0747, having made no break of journey, in accordance with the itinerary provided at time of booking.

With that I agree, if for no other reason than that if NRE or equivalent produced it for that ticket, it's permitted.

(Though I have now been swayed on "ON DATE SHOWN" due to all Off Peak Singles apparently saying that, which I didn't realise - I still think it's stupid, though, and those should all be changed to "SEE RESTRICTIONS".)

 

[34D]

I agree that paying for the Anytime single gives one the right to a voluntary break of journey, however I don't agree that you don't have the right to continue your journey (at a reasonable time) on the second day if it isn't possible to complete the journey in a single day while travelling on other single tickets.

In my own view, it depends how late in the day they left it. If it was late enough such that the journey wasn't possible then that is surely their own fault.

Bringing it back to the issues the OP faced: I find it unreasonable to say that, having boarded a train that departed Belfast at 2230 and arrived at Birkenhead at 0630, it was in any way unreasonable to continue his journey on a train that left Liverpool at 0747, having made no break of journey, in accordance with the itinerary provided at time of booking.

I think I probably agree, especially as this itinerary was offered by rail industry systems.

There is an earlier 10:30 'train' though, as the Belfast list confirms: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/BFA/2015/06/24/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

The presence of this earlier boat makes me more uncomfortable than if the 22:30 was the only one

 

[Bavarian]

The presence of this earlier boat makes me more uncomfortable than if the 22:30 was the only one

Yes, but there is a different fare for the day sailing (£10 cheaper). The ticket specifies in its "Route" section whether it's valid for the day or night sailing. You also get a separate coupon with the ferry reservation.