I think we're missing the point a bit, wrongly issued or no (no, as far as I can see) it isn't the passenger's responsibility to notice that and do something about it, certainly not when traveling on their booked itinerary anyway, which the OP says was the 0747.
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Severe ticketing fault (Sailrail)
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I don't think the point has been missed at all, there have been several posts addressing that the ticket must have been valid, and that the OP had no reason to either check the wording nor expect to encounter any difficulties with that ticket.
The side discussion about whether it's a ticket issue error or not is merely to try and correct the OP's initial understanding of how things work.
jumble
Established Member
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I think that we are all missing the point
Frankly the RPI seems to have left his common sense at home that day as he has ignored the simple point that the OP has paid for his journey
I once had this in BR days
I was sold a supersaver the outbound which were not valid on a Friday wrongly dated for travel Friday
I was chalenged on the train and argued that the ticket I had paid for could never be used
The Guard disappeared with my ticket and for some reason never returned
perhaps he went to look for his common sense and found it...
I moaned at BR about being hassled and got a few beer tokens
Frankly the RPI seems to have left his common sense at home that day as he has ignored the simple point that the OP has paid for his journey
I once had this in BR days
I was sold a supersaver the outbound which were not valid on a Friday wrongly dated for travel Friday
I was chalenged on the train and argued that the ticket I had paid for could never be used
The Guard disappeared with my ticket and for some reason never returned
perhaps he went to look for his common sense and found it...
I moaned at BR about being hassled and got a few beer tokens
Am I being obtuse by wondering why Merseyrail are being brought into this? If I've read the thread right, it was a Virgin West Coast employee who acted so unreasonably. Have I missed something?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
If I'm reading it right it was a Merseyrail employee at Lime St Low Level, as there is mention of a ticket being rejected by barriers, which are not fitted at the main Lime St station.
Correct.
Ah, apologies, then my previous link (re Virgin's delay repay) was wrong; if you want to claim for the delay that Merseyrail caused you, if the delay to your journey was over half an hour, then the form is here http://www.merseyrail.org/media/311846/DOC050515-05052015093739.pdf . I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) others have had successful delay repay requests for being incorrectly detained by gateline staff, but I'm not sure anyone has tried it with Merseyrail.
I would, however, certainly recommend you also sort out and complain about the bigger issue. As others have said, even if the ticket wasn't valid, the RPI certainly took the wrong attitude for a long-distance ferry journey...
In that case my previous advice about complaining to virgin was completely wrong!
I agree. Whoever the gateline assistant worked for, you should report this to their employer so that an investigation and appropriate action can be taken if it's felt necessary.
plastictaffy
Member
A one day travelcard from my local station has the issued date on it, and as such, is only valid on the date shown. But if you look at the restrictions, that isn't so, you may use it anytime up until 0429 the next day.
Neil, as I see it, you are, once again, talking out of your arse.
Neil, as I see it, you are, once again, talking out of your arse.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Yes indeed I did - Valid: "ON DATE SHOWN" means valid on the *railway* day shown i.e. until 0429 of the following day, and I am aware of no current ticket other than this one where this is not the case (and invite anyone else to identify one if it exists). I don't think there is any debate about this being the case.
I still hold the view that the tickets are being issued incorrectly, possibly as a result of being entered incorrectly in the ticketing database (though interestingly BRFares does not show them incorrectly - some others on there are valid ON DATE SHOWN but the one concerned is not).
For clarity, I don't believe the OP should be refused travel as it is clearly the railway's error. However I do maintain withdrawal for investigation with a free replacement is the correct course of action, and if staff don't do this then it'll never get fixed.
It's not only the OP's ticket, and it's not a new thing...
Attachments
I can see this issue from both sides.
To the railway people, this ticket is as invalid as a Stevenage to London day return being used the day after. Set against the backdrop of byelaw prosecutions and strict liability, that concern is well founded.
We then have the civil law, where a valid contract has clearly been entered into.
Agree to complain to Arriva, Merseyrail and Virgin.
To the railway people, this ticket is as invalid as a Stevenage to London day return being used the day after. Set against the backdrop of byelaw prosecutions and strict liability, that concern is well founded.
We then have the civil law, where a valid contract has clearly been entered into.
Agree to complain to Arriva, Merseyrail and Virgin.
And this ticket was for an overnight journey as well? (Since you CAN get from Dublin to Dundee via Holyhead on one day when travelling on the morning ferry...)
Apparently ATW have set all Sailrail fares for which they are responsible using the same rules and restrictions. I'm about to write them regarding this issue so they can amend the rules. This should be in the interest of all Sailrail users.
However, things seem to be different with Sailrail via Cairnryan. These fares are set by Scotrail, as I've found out now. Last time I did this (using the sleeper from Glasgow to London) the ticket was valid 5 days!
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
No, I realise that. But that ticket *type* seems to be the only one affected, and it is misleading and wrong.
What does "On date shown" mean anyway? It's vague and ambiguous, since there are two dates on the ticket (in najaB's sample). In the case that the two dates were not the same, that wording would make it impossible for the ticket to be valid on more than one day.
A cynical passenger might say "I've shown it to you today, so it's valid today"!
A cynical passenger might say "I've shown it to you today, so it's valid today"!
Kentish Paul
Member
Have I missed something? I can only see one date.
"Start date" & "Valid until".
At least you now agree that it's not a Day Single.
Which are the same
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
At least you now agree that it's not a Day Single.
It seems to have been issued as if it were one, though.
bb21
Emeritus Moderator
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I am of the opinion that there is nothing wrong with the ticket. Some staff just need to be properly trained and remember what they are taught.
SailRail tickets are the only exception I can think so it is not as if it is that difficult to point out during training.
And attitude, most importantly. There will always be exceptions so hey just need to have the right attitude towards these situations.
SailRail tickets are the only exception I can think so it is not as if it is that difficult to point out during training.
And attitude, most importantly. There will always be exceptions so hey just need to have the right attitude towards these situations.
I do not understand this at all.
Firstly, the ticket is a single - nothing to do with a day return.
Secondly, it is valid only on the overnight boat which leaves Belfast on Day 1 and arrives Liverpool on Day 2 so is quite obviously valid on two dates. Why should any 'railway people' have well founded concerns about such an simple thing ?
'Valid until' is only the (railway) date by which you must begin your journey. It says nothing about whether or not the journey may continue into a further day if necessary. (Look at the dates printed on the outward portion of an off-peak return, for a common example of this.)
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Such tickets, however, do not have "ON DATE SHOWN" in the Valid: field. Only day singles/day returns/day rangers do, and all of those are only valid on that railway day.
.
All dogs have four legs. This has four legs.
Therefore this is a dog.
Ah, the fallacy of the good ol' Aristotelian syllogism ... this has literally made my day
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
All dogs have four legs. This has four legs.
Therefore this is a dog.
Oh, come on. Why on earth would it be right to have a totally misleading statement on a ticket in that way?
Even if it is correct in terms of procedure, it is utterly nonsensical in practical terms and is actively confusing, and as such should be fixed. Any view otherwise is to want to continue the confusing nature of rail ticketing, IMO - *all* tickets should be exactly what they say they are, and if they, as this one, have a two-day validity provided the journey is commenced on the first day, that is what it should say.
And people are yet to identify *any* other ticket type which contains this particular piece of incorrect and misleading information. Which is why my view continues to be that it is incorrect.
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