Severe ticketing fault (Sailrail)

[Bavarian]

Just being back from a Sailrail tour to Ireland and back I want to share a pretty embarrassing experience caused by some fault in Virgin Trains' ticketing system.

For my return journey I purchased a Sailrail from Belfast to Gatwick Airport via the overnight ferry to Birkenhead. The booking was made online with Virgin Trains. Collecting the ticket I didn't notice that a severe error had been made: the ticket stated "Start Date: 19-JUN-15", "Valid until: 19-JUN-15", "Validity: On date shown".

As a result, this ticket (as issued) was in fact impossible to use any further than Birkenhead since all rail travel needed to be on the 20th! Not having noticed this in the first place, I travelled nonetheless and here's what happened.

The Merseyrail barrier at Hamilton Sq rejected my ticket of course, which still didn't surprise me as it is always the case with Sailrail tickets... But the revenue officer let me pass barely looking at the ticket.

At Lime St the barrier rejected too, the revenue officer took a good look at the ticket and then said "This one's from yesterday, Sir". That was the moment I first noticed the whole extent of this malarkey. So a lengthy discussion started, I tried to explain the situation, showed the ferry reservation coupon and Stena boarding pass to prove that I began my journey correctly on the 19th (and also the Virgin booking confirmation with my itinerary which I luckily still had on my phone), but the revenue officer did not seem to understand at all. He said he had to stick to the wording on the ticket and was going to issue a penalty fare, I said I was not paying that, he asked for identification which I refused to provide at this time. Wanting to catch the 0747 Virgin service to London I asked him to let me through now or call the Transport Police. He did the latter, not without making impolite slurs that I should "go back to where I come from" if I didn't want to "play by the rules".
Two police officers arrived after about ten minutes. I did the whole explanation again and the officers seemed to see my point. One of them took the revenue officer aside (I could not hear what they were discussing), the other one let me through the barrier and apologised for this scene, but told me to go the ticket office to get this thing sorted out. He was a very kind person reminding me again what I like so much about your country.
Since the 0747 had left by this time I wanted to get some breakfast. He informed me of a Wetherspoon public house nearby and gave me directions. Over a lovely English breakfast I tried to forget my anger about all this, however not without some anxiety as to my onward journey.

Later on, the Virgin ticket lady seemed more than confused about my ticket and situation, she looked into some materials and tried to ring someone more knowledgeable who couldn't be reached though as it was Saturday morning. I asked her if she could just print a new ticket with the correct date for my onward journey which she said she couldn't. She finally even tried to sell me one at the (outrageous) walk-up fare!

Having entered into a valid contract with Virgin to take me to Gatwick and paid £72 for that I just boarded the next service to London. There were no barriers, no ticket inspections at the platform or on the train whatsoever. I arrived Euston without further issues.

The barrier at St Pancras was out of order, passengers were waved through after brief glances at their tickets. No issues here too.

Finally at Gatwick the revenue officer who noticed the barrier rejecting my ticket for the final time took it from me, noticed the date and there we went again... Or so I thought. This friendly person immediately accepted my explanation, apologised for the barrier's "malfunction" and wished me a safe flight.

So everything worked out at last. But perhaps you can see that being a visitor to a foreign country such situations are more than embarrassing.

 

[yorkie]

He said he had to stick to the wording on the ticket and was going to issue a penalty fare, I said I was not paying that, he asked for identification which I refused to provide at this time. Wanting to catch the 0747 Virgin service to London I asked him to let me through now or call the Transport Police. He did the latter, not without making impolite slurs that I should "go back to where I come from" if I didn't want to "play by the rules".

Make sure you report him, and if not entirely satisfied with the response go to Transport Focus and take it further if necessary.

Two police officers arrived after about ten minutes. I did the whole explanation again and the officers seemed to see my point. One of them took the revenue officer aside (I could not hear what they were discussing), the other one let me through the barrier and apologised for this scene, but told me to go the ticket office to get this thing sorted out. He was a very kind person reminding me again what I like so much about your country.

That's great to hear

Later on, the Virgin ticket lady seemed more than confused about my ticket and situation, she looked into some materials and tried to ring someone more knowledgeable who couldn't be reached though as it was Saturday morning. I asked her if she could just print a new ticket with the correct date for my onward journey which she said she couldn't. She finally even tried to sell me one at the (outrageous) walk-up fare!

Again, report this. Virgin have tried to ignore contract law in the past, and I would have thought they'd have learnt their lesson. Obviously not. This needs to be pursued.

Finally at Gatwick the revenue officer who noticed the barrier rejecting my ticket for the final time took it from me, noticed the date and there we went again... Or so I thought. This friendly person immediately accepted my explanation, apologised for the barrier's "malfunction" and wished me a safe flight.

That's good to hear too

So everything worked out at last. But perhaps you can see that being a visitor to a foreign country such situations are more than embarrassing.

Indeed. Sadly the attitude isn't always positive (though it usually is), and that needs to change. It needs to come from people at the top. Don't give in until you have assurances that such problems won't occur to others in future.

You should also complain to Arriva Trains Wales, as they set this fare, and have incorrectly set the restrictions to be "Valid on date on ticket only".

I'm sorry we have such a fragmented system and some of us behave in an appalling manner, it's not representative of the majority, although this is much more of a problem in the railway industry than in almost any other industry that serves customers.

 

[razor89]

Wanting to catch the 0747 Virgin service to London I asked him to let me through now or call the Transport Police. He did the latter, not without making impolite slurs that I should "go back to where I come from" if I didn't want to "play by the rules".

Absolutely astonished at this. Please please do report him. People with this sort of attitude really don't deserve to have a job on the railway, and they tarnish the reputation of all rail staff with their actions and words.

On a more general note, I believe there is a time and place for penalty fares, and "sticking to the rules", but this clearly wasn't it. What's really disappointing is that there are staff out there who can't use their brains and realise this.

 

[najaB]

For my return journey I purchased a Sailrail from Belfast to Gatwick Airport via the overnight ferry to Birkenhead. The booking was made online with Virgin Trains. Collecting the ticket I didn't notice that a severe error had been made: the ticket stated "Start Date: 19-JUN-15", "Valid until: 19-JUN-15", "Validity: On date shown".

As a result, this ticket (as issued) was in fact impossible to use any further than Birkenhead since all rail travel needed to be on the 20th! Not having noticed this in the first place, I travelled nonetheless and here's what happened.

I'm not going to comment on the inexcusable behaviour you encountered, but I do want to point out that this isn't a ticketing error, the ticket was correct as printed. Sail Rail tickets should be treated using the same rules as any standard ticket. Specifically, if you are unable to complete your journey in a single day you have up until 0429 on the third day to reach your destination. So your ticket should have been treated as valid to travel up until 0429 on the 21st!

 

[tony6499]

Here we go again, jumping to conclusions without the slightest shred of evidence bar what the OP said was said and nothing about what was said to whoever was supposed to say this.

The whole episode was down to the OP not checking his ticket when he collected it and an online ticket would only be made by what you asked for.

 

[najaB]

Here we go again, jumping to conclusions...

Whoa there are moment...

The whole episode was down to the OP not checking his ticket when he collected it and an online ticket would only be made by what you asked for.

The OP stated that he took the overnight ferry. So, if you get down of your soapbox for a moment, you'd see that he started his journey on the 19th (leaving Belfast at 2230, arriving Birkenhead 0630). His problems occurred on the 20th. So there was no mistake by the OP.

 

[razor89]

Here we go again, jumping to conclusions without the slightest shred of evidence bar what the OP said was said and nothing about what was said to whoever was supposed to say this.

The whole episode was down to the OP not checking his ticket when he collected it and an online ticket would only be made by what you asked for.

Maybe you should read again the post directly above yours. The OP's ticket was valid for his journey! The whole episode was actually down to staff with inadequate knowledge, poor judgement and (apparently) a bit of prejudice thrown in for good measure.

Regarding "jumping to conclusions", the OP obviously believes that the member of staff has said what has been posted, and I would encourage anyone in that situation to report it. The TOC will do their own investigation and (hopefully) find out the full facts of the incident.

 

[Greenback]

Here we go again, jumping to conclusions without the slightest shred of evidence bar what the OP said was said and nothing about what was said to whoever was supposed to say this.

The whole episode was down to the OP not checking his ticket when he collected it and an online ticket would only be made by what you asked for.

The ticket was correct. If the story is accurate, and I for one have no reason to believe otherwise, then it's the understanding of the staff that is the problem.

How could the ticket have been dated for the day after when someone is beginning their journey on the day before? That would make even less sense than the well established principle that these type of journeys can run into the next as with a ticket from Cardiff or London to Rosslare and vice versa.

Virgin need to ensure that their staff are properly trained in this, and how to be remain professional when dealing with customers.

 

[yorkie]

The whole episode was down to the OP not checking his ticket when he collected it and an online ticket would only be made by what you asked for.

No, the original poster (OP) is not at fault. He had a contract entitling him to travel in accordance with the itinerary. This is basic contract law, but the National Rail website does explicitly state the following, for the avoidance of doubt, regarding itineraries:

...When you book your journey online, any ticket offered in connection with the timetable or itinerary produced by the journey planner will be accepted ....

 

[skibrox]

I often use this route, a Belfast - Manchester Sailrail via Birkenhead, and it always has the date shown as the date I board the ferry.

I have had a few issues at the Merseyrail ticket inspection at Lime Street. Twice the BTP have been called, but the BTP seem to know what they are talking about and let me through after I explained I left last night.

TPE guards are more knowledgable and the northern gates at Oxford road reject it, but showing anything cardboard to the gate agents there lets you through

 

[Bavarian]

The whole episode was down to the OP not checking his ticket when he collected it and an online ticket would only be made by what you asked for.

You see, that was the question I kept asking myself during the ride from Liverpool to London: would things have been different had I noticed the "error" right after ticket collection?
I don't think so, since according to that Virgin ticket office lady it was generally not possible to "change" the ticket to being valid from the 19th until the 20th or just print out a new one valid for the correct date at no additional cost.
Apparently they could have changed the ticket to being valid only the 20th before departure, but then it would have been invalid for the ferry the night before, of course.

I think the solution might be the rule najaB cites above. But where could I find that in an official context?

 

[najaB]

You see, that was the question I kept asking myself during the ride from Liverpool to London: would things have been different had I noticed the "error" right after ticket collection?

There was no error, your ticket was 100% valid as printed. You did nothing wrong and there was no need for you to change your ticket.

As Yorkie has pointed out, the National Rail Conditions of Carriage specifically state that if you are travelling on an itinerary produced by the journey planner, then your ticket is valid - no questions asked. I don't know if this link will work, but I can get the Journey Planner to give your planned route: possibly broken link. So your ticket was valid, end of story.

 

[bb21]

I'm not going to comment on the inexcusable behaviour you encountered, but I do want to point out that this isn't a ticketing error, the ticket was correct as printed. Sail Rail tickets should be treated using the same rules as any standard ticket. Specifically, if you are unable to complete your journey in a single day you have up until 0429 on the third day to reach your destination. So your ticket should have been treated as valid to travel up until 0429 on the 21st!

Agreed. There is nothing wrong with the ticket from what I can see.

The problem lies with the RPI's attitude. If he had never encountered or heard the ticket before, when a sensible explanation is provided, it is not unreasonable to expect that the passenger should be allowed to continue the journey unhindered. To call the police was laughable. To make such comments as those alleged by the OP would be gross misconduct in many customer-facing roles.

 

[Greenback]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the ticket. How on earth can a passenger leave on the overnight ferry to Birkenhead on the date shown as the ticket, and not be continuing on their journey the following day?

The more I think about this, the more ridiculous it seems to be to say that the ticket was only valid on the 19th. As well as being against the railway rules on continuing the journey until 0429 on the third day, it's against common sense!

 

[neilmc]

This is an embarrassing indictment of all that can go wrong with the fragmented rail system in Britain and the appalling lack of knowledge on behalf of people whose job it is to administer this system. These is surely no reason why staff in Liverpool of all places should have issue with a perfectly valid ticket involving an overnight ferry, and visitors with a lesser command of English or a more timid nature could have been bullied into parting needlessly with large sums of money.

This is one which should be followed up, since it has a propensity to reoccur, and I suggest may be the type of issue which the press may be interested in since it is also quite likely to affect visitors to the UK.

Personally I'd go by plane every time and avoid Sailrail altogether, indeed any combination of UK train travel plus anything offshore as the likelihood of cockups and misunderstandings is immense.

Sincere apologies to Bavarian for such crap treatment incurred in our country.

 

[bb21]

The "Valid until" date should not be a barrier to staff accepting a ticket beyond that date. Plenty of examples exist where validity on the second day is perfectly acceptable, such as many long distance Off-Peak Singles or outward portion of Off-Peak Returns.

All this points to poor training or poor understanding by the gateline assistant to me, especially considering that the passenger presented his evidence that travel on the second day was permitted (which also points to an attitude issue on the part of the gateline assistant IMO).

 

[najaB]

This is an embarrassing indictment of all that can go wrong with the fragmented rail system in Britain and the appalling lack of knowledge on behalf of people whose job it is to administer this system.

Nothing to do with a fragmented system. Tickets being valid on the second day is a simple concept that's been around for ages, doesn't matter who issued the ticket. This was entirely due to someone not applying common sense - as Greenback points out there's no way the ticket could only be valid on the 19th given that it's an overnight ferry!

 

[tsr]

I would not be offended if the ticket was examined further (eg. reservations or other itineraries were checked, or it was taken for a second read through the details) because a ticket from a previous day may arouse suspicions on shorter journeys where reuse or fraud would be more likely, and if the predominant flow for passengers at the time was for local journeys, it may need staff to take a moment to break the routine and cater for something more unusual. Indeed, I have been in situations myself where I have had to assist passengers with such things but also politely ask a few leading questions about their travel plans, which, when answered satisfactorily, have resulted in a continuation of their journey with only a few seconds of delay. But to make insulting comments about a passenger who is behaving themselves and quite probably abiding by the rules is very poor indeed. Likewise taking far too long to make a simple decision based on obvious travel plans.

However, it would almost certainly be helpful and probably speed up ticket checks if the expiry date on this particular ticket (seeing as it regularly requires an overnight BoJ) could be extended somehow, or the words "Valid after overnight journey" added somewhere. This is not meant to be an attempt to allow staff to have poor knowledge or behaviour, which I do not endorse, but rather a suggestion that may improve convenience.

(Obviously, I am relying on accuracy of the OP's account here, which I have no reason to doubt at present!)

 

[tony6499]

So where is the fault in the Virgin ticketing system ? So the OP collected the ticket thought that there was a severe error in the ticket which there wasn't but didn't bring it to anyones attention till he got to Liverpool ?

Seems he could have been more proactive when he collected his ticket , doesn't say where or when so I can't comment and certainly won't jump to conclusions like others have done here.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Nothing to do with a fragmented system. Tickets being valid on the second day is a simple concept that's been around for ages, doesn't matter who issued the ticket. This was entirely due to someone not applying common sense - as Greenback points out there's no way the ticket could only be valid on the 19th given that it's an overnight ferry!

But the OP himself was convinced the ticket wasn't valid as he wrote that himself when he wrote about something being wrong with the Virgin ticket machine issuing it when quite clearly there wasn't

 

[Bletchleyite]

You should also complain to Arriva Trains Wales, as they set this fare, and have incorrectly set the restrictions to be "Valid on date on ticket only".

I agree that this is the problem; it has essentially been issued as a Day Single which means validity ends at 0429 of the *second* day, i.e. it technically (but incorrectly) was indeed not valid. I suspect that may be wrong because there are other ones that are valid on the daytime service only.

The validity should have said something like SEE RESTRCTIONS like an Off Peak Single would (I don't think it's 2 days per an Anytime Single).

 

[pennine]

So where is the fault in the Virgin ticketing system ? So the OP collected the ticket thought that there was a severe error in the ticket which there wasn't but didn't bring it to anyones attention till he got to Liverpool ?


But the OP himself was convinced the ticket wasn't valid as he wrote that himself when he wrote about something being wrong with the Virgin ticket machine issuing it when quite clearly there wasn't

This will matertialise once the OP goes through the complaint channels and the relevant TOCs carry out their investigations.

As for Virgin (among others), it is self evident that there is a serious lack of training where staff are concerned, and this worrying for a domestic traveler let alone an international one, and most certainly something that cannot be defended!

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't one of the founding British principles is 'innocent until proven guilty'?

Maybe it would serve some people well to observe it!

 

[tony6499]

This will matertialise once the OP goes through the complaint channels and the relevant TOCs carry out their investigations.

As for Virgin (among others), it is self evident that there is a serious lack of training where staff are concerned, and this worrying for a domestic traveler let alone an international one, and most certainly sometime that cannot be defended!

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't one of the founding British principles is 'innocent until proven guilty'?

Maybe it would serve some people well to observe it!

Exactly , all the ones who want to hang the inspector without a shred of evidence should hang their heads in shame

 

[najaB]

I agree that this is the problem; it has essentially been issued as a Day Single which means validity ends at 0429 of the *second* day...

With respect, I disagree. This isn't a case of a voluntary break of journey, it's a situation where the journey continues overnight. Tickets for journeys that include Sleeper legs are issued also issued with the start and end dates being the same.

Besides, the ticket is validated by virtue of being used on an itinerary produced by the NRE journey planner.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But the OP himself was convinced the ticket wasn't valid as he wrote that himself when he wrote about something being wrong with the Virgin ticket machine issuing it when quite clearly there wasn't

I'm not saying that the ticket layout couldn't be improved, of course it could. But the problem as described by the OP was due to staff who didn't know (and didn't look up) the validity of his ticket - it had nothing to do with the franchise system.

 

[pennine]

Exactly , all the ones who want to hang the inspector without a shred of evidence should hang their heads in shame

Or imply that the OP is a liar, which I think in the context in which it was posted, was implied!

 

[Bletchleyite]

With respect, I disagree. This isn't a case of a voluntary break of journey, it's a situation where the journey continues overnight.

Day Singles are not valid for continuation of the journey overnight regardless of the situation; it MUST end at or before 0429. I contend that these tickets are erroneously issued as Day Singles when they should instead be issued as normal Singles, which would have "SEE RESTRCTIONS" in validity rather than "ON DATE SHOWN". Then there would not be a problem.

As it is, the tickets are (incorrectly) not valid for a journey including the overnight ferry, in my opinion.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Besides, the ticket is validated by virtue of being used on an itinerary produced by the NRE journey planner.

This may indeed be the only means of contending that it is valid.

To clarify, though, to the OP - what is the ticket type? Then we can confirm that. There are rather a lot!

http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=BFC&dest=1072

 

[najaB]

Day Singles are not valid for continuation of the journey overnight regardless of the situation; it MUST end at or before 0429. I contend that these tickets are erroneously issued as Day Singles when they should instead be issued as normal Singles, which would have "SEE RESTRCTIONS" in validity rather than "ON DATE SHOWN". Then there would not be a problem.

As it is, the tickets are (incorrectly) not valid for a journey including the overnight ferry, in my opinion.

They aren't Day Singles because the 'Ticket Type' field says 'STENA STBY O/P'. I agree that the Validity field could say something more helpful than 'ON DATE SHOWN' but that is a different matter.

To clarify, though, to the OP - what is the ticket type? Then we can confirm that. There are rather a lot!

There's only one that is £72 and valid on the overnight ferry though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They aren't Day Singles because the 'Ticket Type' field says 'STENA STBY O/P'. I agree that the Validity field could say something more helpful than 'ON DATE SHOWN' but that is a different matter.

Which adds credibility to it being an incorrect issue and as such not valid.

There's only one that is £72 and valid on the overnight ferry though.

I guess it was this one?

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=BFC&dest=1072&grpo=M190&rte=854&ldn=1&tkt=2SS

The restriction on that one is meant to be "VALID ON NIGHT SAILINGS ONLY" (or possibly "SEE RESTRCTIONS" as I said) not "ON DATE SHOWN". It was incorrectly issued and as such in my view not valid, though perhaps as it was an issuing error that caused it not to be valid the correct action of the RPI would have been not to try to PF, but to withdraw for investigation and issue a replacement to allow continuation of travel.

So we have the combination of (a) an incorrect issue, and (b) yet another case of Merseyrail incompetence with regard to ticket issuing, checking and acceptance.

If a ticket says valid "ON DATE SHOWN" it is NOT valid for travel past 0429 on day 2, regardless of what it is.

 

[bb21]

If a ticket says valid "ON DATE SHOWN" it is NOT valid for travel past 0429 on day 2, regardless of what it is.

Is this explicitly stated/defined anywhere?

 

[EM2]

If a ticket says valid "ON DATE SHOWN" it is NOT valid for travel past 0429 on day 2, regardless of what it is.

If it said ONLY ON DATE SHOWN I'd agree. However, just because something is valid ON DATE SHOWN, that doesn't mean that it can't be valid on other dates.

 

[najaB]

The restriction on that one is meant to be "VALID ON NIGHT SAILINGS ONLY"

That's actually the route: 'LVPL STENA NIGHT'

It was incorrectly issued and as such in my view not valid, though perhaps as it was an issuing error that caused it not to be valid the correct action of the RPI would have been not to try to PF, but to withdraw for investigation and issue a replacement to allow continuation of travel.

I'm yet to see any proof that this was incorrectly issued, and if it was they've been incorrectly issued for over a year.

If a ticket says valid "ON DATE SHOWN" it is NOT valid for travel past 0429 on day 2, regardless of what it is.

I'd appreciate a link to where you found this information. Thanks.