Bombardier win London Overground contract for 45 EMUs

[AM9]

Its not yet anywhere, just been told by various sources.

At a passenger level, are the Aventras likely to be anything different anyway?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Or that TfL picks Bombardier because it's strongarmed into doing so by the GLA Board.

"Must buy from 'British' Company..." (even though our bikes are from Canada...)

To be fair, Boris probably still thinks of Canada as "the Colonies"...

 

[47802]

At a passenger level, are the Aventras likely to be anything different anyway?

Probably not but then would a Siemens, CAF or Hitachi unit built to TFL's spec be much different anyway from a passenger viewpoint I suspect not.

Personally I'm quite pleased they won they will provide some UK jobs, certainly in preference to CAF, and would the Hitachi units have been assembled here or would the UK plant be too busy?

 

[Class377/5]

At a passenger level, are the Aventras likely to be anything different anyway?

I'm half expecting them to be a mix of 387s and 378s, but not based on anything than my own opinion.

 

[AM9]

I'm half expecting them to be a mix of 387s and 378s, but not based on anything than my own opinion.

I assume that a requirement for a 377 will be met by a 387 these days even though there is no justification for them on the WA lines.

 

[Class377/5]

I assume that a requirement for a 377 will be met by a 387 these days even though there is no justification for them on the WA lines.

Not quite sure what you mean sorry.

 

[cactustwirly]

I'm half expecting them to be a mix of 387s and 378s, but not based on anything than my own opinion.

I'd say 378 with new cab and voyager bogies.

 

[D365]

I'd say 378 with new cab and voyager bogies.

Not quite an accurate description, Aventra is more a new product then that (unless you are taking a swipe at Bombardier). That particular bogie is known as 'FLEXX Eco' and is currently found in service under Classes 220, 222 and 172.

 

[fgwrich]

Not quite an accurate description, Aventra is more a new product then that (unless you are taking a swipe at Bombardier). That particular bogie is known as 'FLEXX Eco' and is currently found in service under Classes 220, 222 and 172.

...Which is really rather what Aventra boils down to. A 378 Body with new cabs and Flexx Eco / Voyager Bogies. Or in reality, the British Rail B5000 - aka British Rail's Advanced Suburban Bogie. A development was also fitted to the ARC JHA Aggregate Hopper of 1990 fame.

-A Brief Flexx Eco / B5005 History.

Bogies for the Voyager fleet are being manufactured at Crespin in France to a lightweight design. Designated B5005, this is a development of the B5000 bogie produced in 1991 by RFS Specialist Rail Products in collaboration with British Rail Research for the Networker EMUs and DMUs being ordered in quantity by BR's Network SouthEast business (RG 3.91 p125). Initially used under trailers, a powered version with AC motors and 25 tonne pivot load followed in 1994.

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/cutting-noise-and-smoothing-the-ride.html

 

[47802]

Well despite what the Bombardier bashers may say, given Bombardier are aiming for significant reductions in fuel and maintenance costs with Aventra. along with a bodyshell that can accommodate 3 a side or 2 a side doors I expect there are some significant changes to Aventra from Electrostar.

 

[jon0844]

If they can ensure good quality control, that's all most people could/do want.

What they look like doesn't matter so much, but I think whatever is made will look great as TfL/LO seem to do a very good job with livery design. Even a 1980s 317 with LO livery looks pretty swish, and so do the 315s.

So, whatever Bombardier makes is bound to go down well with the general public. But reliability is key.

 

[AM9]

Not quite sure what you mean sorry.

Just an observation that if this stock is to remain within TfL's allocation for most of it's life, it won't get much chance of speeds over 100mph let alone 110mph especially on WA lines. I assume that either 387s are not significantly more expensive than 377s (were) or that Bombardier only offer the 110mph versions now to simplify their inventory, meaning that 379s aren't available either.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

....along with a bodyshell that can accommodate 3 a side or 2 a side doors I expect there are some significant changes to Aventra from Electrostar.

The 3-door 345s are supposed to be 23m(ish) long so I imagine that 378/metro style coaches will be 20m with 2 door sets, otherwise there won't be much room for any seats. So a modified Electrostar bodyshell, maybe with some weight reduction within the limits of the designs existing basic structural certification, and provision for a cosmetically restyled cab, (a high speed crash resistant design is not needed for metro stock) is all that's needed. It will be the electronics that will be the biggest development task along with extensive EMC certification.

 

[D365]

So, whatever Bombardier makes is bound to go down well with the general public. But reliability is key.

As far as I can tell they've been getting it right with the 387 - it's rather like a development of the Aventra features which were introduced with the Class 379.

Just an observation that if this stock is to remain within TfL's allocation for most of it's life, it won't get much chance of speeds over 100mph let alone 110mph especially on WA lines. I assume that either 387s are not significantly more expensive than 377s (were) or that Bombardier only offer the 110mph versions now to simplify their inventory, meaning that 379s aren't available either.

No, I don't think he meant that the 45 LO trains would be built to the same specification, just that the relevant Aventra features will be transferred. Moot point now that it is said that this will be the full-blown Aventra.

 

[AM9]

No, I don't think he meant that the 45 LO trains would be built to the same specification, just that the relevant Aventra features will be transferred. Moot point now that it is said that this will be the full-blown Aventra.

But what is a 'full blown Aventra'? I doubt whether Bombardier will abandon the basic bodyshell of the 20 & 23m xxxstars. That's a proven design and other than the three-door sets per side Aventra option, structurally will not be far short of future requirements. The UK, requiring an almost uniqe loading gauge doen't allow frequent redesigns of basic bodyshells given the cost of qualification.

 

[D365]

But what is a 'full blown Aventra'? I doubt whether Bombardier will abandon the basic bodyshell of the 20 & 23m xxxstars. That's a proven design and other than the three-door sets per side Aventra option, structurally will not be far short of future requirements. The UK, requiring an almost uniqe loading gauge doen't allow frequent redesigns of basic bodyshells given the cost of qualification.

I suppose the distinction may have blurred somewhat since the Class 379, personally it seems the most significant change has been 'under the hood'.

But there will always be those who complain that Bombardier isn't reinventing the wheel :roll:

 

[455driver]

But there will always be those who complain that Bombardier isn't reinventing the wheel :roll:

If it ain't broke don't fix this it.
The xxxstar bodyshell is a good body so evolve it (which is what Aventra is) instead of binning it and spending millions developing a replacement.

Whether we should be changing the safety specs every 5 minutes (which is why the Desiro bodyshell is no longer compliant) is a good thing or not depends on your viewpoint. Me personally I think the current crop of trains are safe enough and any further developments are too expensive for the inferred increase in safety.

 

[jon0844]

Are dodgy door buttons part of the Aventra design?

 

[D365]

Are dodgy door buttons part of the Aventra design?

Don't push it

 

[jon0844]

Don't push it

I can't see which bit to push. Is it that small black dot in the middle?

 

[JaJaWa]

Are dodgy door buttons part of the Aventra design?

The 387s have held up much better than the 379s (unless Thameslink have been replacing them?).

 

[Class377/5]

But what is a 'full blown Aventra'? I doubt whether Bombardier will abandon the basic bodyshell of the 20 & 23m xxxstars. That's a proven design and other than the three-door sets per side Aventra option, structurally will not be far short of future requirements. The UK, requiring an almost uniqe loading gauge doen't allow frequent redesigns of basic bodyshells given the cost of qualification.

Why not? Various other bodyshells have been abandoned. Also the fact the mark 2 Electrostar is actually the Aventra 1 bodyshell Bombardier designed for thier failed Thameslink.

If it ain't broke don't fix this it.
The xxxstar bodyshell is a good body so evolve it (which is what Aventra is) instead of binning it and spending millions developing a replacement.

Whether we should be changing the safety specs every 5 minutes (which is why the Desiro bodyshell is no longer compliant) is a good thing or not depends on your viewpoint. Me personally I think the current crop of trains are safe enough and any further developments are too expensive for the inferred increase in safety.

The basic Electrostar bodyshell that Bombardier brought had been evolved once with the original Aventra bodyshell then being used for the 379 and later Electrostar orders (377/6, 377/7 and 387s).

Safety standards are never a fixed thing and will change over time. The Desiro bodyshell and the Electrostars are both none compliant now. That's why both Bombardier and Siemens developed new designs. The current move is more about weight loss and improving safety than just 'inferred' safety as you suggest. The fact is lighter trains will help lower costs by reducing wear and tear. Looking at the daily 2018 Thameslink Core weights, its amazing just how high those loads are. Reducing weight just doesn't have the benefit of being cheaper but also keeps the railway open longer by requiring less possessions/replacements so it's a win win situation.

The 387s have held up much better than the 379s (unless Thameslink have been replacing them?).

There some minor issues when they first arrived but traveling daily on them I've seen three or four missing buttons in total so believe the issue has been fixed.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

For both Desiros and Electrostars is it just the design of the cab (crash regulations) that they fall foul or are there other regulations that they fall foul of?

 

[jon0844]

The 387s have held up much better than the 379s (unless Thameslink have been replacing them?).

They must be using a revised design. There's no way Bombardier couldn't have been made aware of the problem and sorted it with its supplier.

What's shocking is that they're still not being replaced on the 379s!

There some minor issues when they first arrived but traveling daily on them I've seen three or four missing buttons in total so believe the issue has been fixed.

Really, just one button broken would suggest they're still using the same ones. Sigh!

 

[Domh245]

Not really. All buttons will fail at some point (overuse/misuse/abuse/manufacturing defect) and so the fact that for a similarly sized fleet, a much smaller number of buttons have gone AWOL suggests that it is an improved design

 

[JaJaWa]

Not really. All buttons will fail at some point (overuse/misuse/abuse/manufacturing defect) and so the fact that for a similarly sized fleet, a much smaller number of buttons have gone AWOL suggests that it is an improved design

There wasn't an issue before the 379s!

 

[fgwrich]

There wasn't an issue before the 379s!

Never been an apparent problem with the Siemens Desiro fleet either. However, I did take another XC Voyager to Southampton the other day as was greeted upon arrival by an illuminated stick again. So it does seem to be a Bombardier > Supplier issue problem.

 

[hassaanhc]

Never been an apparent problem with the Siemens Desiro fleet either. However, I did take another XC Voyager to Southampton the other day as was greeted upon arrival by an illuminated stick again. So it does seem to be a Bombardier > Supplier issue problem.

The Class 379 onwards got a different design of button, one that doesn't feel as solid, especially if you don't press it dead centre. Some buttons of that design have appeared on various S Stock units as replacements as well.

 

[slick]

As someone who will be driving these Im interested to know WHY exactly are Stars and Desiros non compliant now? Think somebody mentioned earlier about the "crumple zone"?

 

[Emblematic]

In essence, the next iteration of the regs from June 2017 require that you, the driver, be protected by the crumple zone, not sitting in the middle of it. Hence crash-cabs with sloping or pointed fronts.

 

[plcd1]

TfL have confirmed the contract has been signed with Bombardier for this new fleet of trains. This was after the 10 day contract standstill period ended. No technical details in the release - it just broadly repeats what has been said already. Nothing yet on the Bombardier site to give more clarity.

https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2015/tfl-signs-contract-with-bombardier-transportation-for-new-trains
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Bombardier have now issued a press release confirming the new trains are Aventras.

http://uk.bombardier.com/content/gb/en/media/newsList/details.bt-2015070315-bombardier-signs-major-rolling-stock-and-maintenan.bombardiercom.html

A couple of subtle changes from previous understanding.

31 trains are 25KV AC only for West Anglia / Romminster
14 trains are dual voltage for GOBLIN and Watford.

The options are now stated as 24 extra EMUs (96 cars). This differs from what the TfL authority paper set out as 69 extra cars.