Bombardier win London Overground contract for 45 EMUs

[jopsuk]

Get the crayons out, re-configure the NLL to four track all the way again between Camden & Dalston, including all-new alignment just to the west of Camden Road, and link the Watford to ELL. That would of course lose the freight lines at Caledonian Road

 

[argonaut56d]

Get the crayons out, re-configure the NLL to four track all the way again between Camden & Dalston, including all-new alignment just to the west of Camden Road, and link the Watford to ELL. That would of course lose the freight lines at Caledonian Road

They did look into it at Camden, but the old metal bridges would be too expensive to replace. New bridge cost and traffic management below. Not sure how much the new one at Watford cost, but it took 11 weeks I think to complete? Bit of a traffic nightmare on a not quite as busy road, imagine Camden Road being shut for 2 months plus. Lol!

Unless TFL want to put their hands into their seemingly bottomless pockets? Don't think Network Rail would be keen to weigh with their current debt mounting by the minute....

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[Muzer]

Most DC line trains are 4-car, and at 3tph that's 12cph. If they were 5 car it would be 15cph. If you have 4-car 4tph, that's 16cph, so more capacity.

I can't say I've ever seen especially busy DC line trains - the problematic bits are Euston to Queens Park and Harrow to Watford - all the rest is duplicated by the Bakerloo with longer, more frequent trains.

For god's sake, though — with 4tph it will become a more metro-y service and so gain in popularity, then they'll. It's basically every short sighted decision about capacity repeated again.

 

[CosherB]

And there was me thinking that £260 million of new rolling stock was good news! lol

 

[ExRes]

Oh, for **** sake.... Can we at least try the CAFs and Hitachis? At least please make these trains be Aventras.

Why ?

If you were in charge of LO would you spend your money on a standardised fleet that reduced driver and maintenance staff training and all the associated ongoing costs or would you chop and change around because a few people preferred the look of a Hitachi to a Bombardier or thought there were too many Bombardier 'Stars' around ?

 

[transmanche]

For god's sake, though — with 4tph it will become a more metro-y service and so gain in popularity, then they'll. It's basically every short sighted decision about capacity repeated again.

Don't forget there's an additional 6tph provided by the Bakerloo line between Harrow & Wealdstone and Queen's Park (9tph south of Stonebridge Park).

 

[Chris125]

For god's sake, though — with 4tph it will become a more metro-y service and so gain in popularity, then they'll. It's basically every short sighted decision about capacity repeated again.

I don't see it making much difference - the inner end is predominantly shared with the relatively high frequency Bakerloo, and I'd imagine the outer end mostly serves peak hour commuter traffic which is unlikely to see much growth simply because you've added an extra train per hour.

 

[Muzer]

I don't see it making much difference - the inner end is predominantly shared with the relatively high frequency Bakerloo, and I'd imagine the outer end mostly serves peak hour commuter traffic which is unlikely to see much growth simply because you've added an extra train per hour.

Hmm, I'm not fully convinced. I do seem to recall reading a quote from someone in TfL that they thought the reason the Watford DC hadn't experienced the same amazing growth as the rest of the lines was the frequency.

 

[argonaut56d]

Hmm, I'm not fully convinced. I do seem to recall reading a quote from someone in TfL that they thought the reason the Watford DC hadn't experienced the same amazing growth as the rest of the lines was the frequency.

But in the same respect, Hatch End, Carpenders Park & Bushey are quite a bit more expensive to live in compared to a lot of other areas where the service has grown. And it's out in the sticks more than say Hackney or Kilburn!

Headstone Lane, Hatch End and Carpenders Park are no where near the busy end of the spectrum. Bushey & Watford Junction are serviced by London Midland as well. That leaves the High Street, walk to the Junction! 15 mins tops.

In my near 8 years driving (don't sign ELL), the biggest gain in punters is on the WLL. That route during rush hour is rammed to bursting point, where we leave passengers on the platform even driving 5 cars!

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[Chris125]

Hmm, I'm not fully convinced. I do seem to recall reading a quote from someone in TfL that they thought the reason the Watford DC hadn't experienced the same amazing growth as the rest of the lines was the frequency.

I'd be surprised if that was the case, my impression was that they have always recognised the difference between the ELL/NLL and what is a much more conventional suburban/commuter line whose busiest section was already shared with the Bakerloo, included on the tube map and benefited from high frequencies.

 

[Muzer]

I'd be surprised if that was the case, my impression was that they have always recognised the difference between the ELL/NLL and what is a much more conventional suburban/commuter line whose busiest section was already shared with the Bakerloo, included on the tube map and benefited from high frequencies.

My memory might be faulty, in which case I apologise. Perhaps they just named it as a contributing factor rather than it being the sole cause.

 

[Wolfie]

To me the Liverpool Street lines are conventional suburban commuter lines, and unlike the 'orbital' lines have a decent platform length, so surely don't need the sideways seating to cram everyone in?

So are the Euston DC lines - what is currently operating on that line?

Will be interesting to see if they will be built with gangways between units. TfL seem quite keen on being able to walk through the full length of the train, but the Capitalstars, and the other set of Aventras being built for Crossrail, don't have these.

Dependent upon what "these " means this may be factually massively incorrect!

The Capitalstars have been walk through from the moment they rolled out in 3-car form....

The images I have seen online suggest the Crossrail Aventra statement is questionable too..

 

[argonaut56d]

So are the Euston DC lines - what is currently operating on that line?



Dependent upon what "these " means this may be factually massively incorrect!

The Capitalstars have been walk through from the moment they rolled out in 3-car form....

The images I have seen online suggest the Crossrail Aventra statement is questionable too..

On the DC, we have 4 car 378's. No 5 cars have been used in service as far as I know.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Will they at least make the new units compatible with the Capitalstars to be able to rescue one another?

 

[87015]

On the DC, we have 4 car 378's. No 5 cars have been used in service as far as I know.

Heard murmurs of a test run with a 5 car to Watford this weekend, but at a quick glance no sign of a schedule in RTT though.

 

[argonaut56d]

Heard murmurs of a test run with a 5 car to Watford this weekend, but at a quick glance no sign of a schedule in RTT though.

Sods law I am up the NLL both days! Passing back and forwards to Willesden so may see it and will hear about it in the messroom.

 

[swt_passenger]

On the DC, we have 4 car 378's. No 5 cars have been used in service as far as I know.

You are definitely getting 5 cars for a couple of years though, it's explicitly stated in the TfL document I linked to in the '378 extra coach' thread the other day; all 57 current 378s are being extended, and then 6 of them are being cascaded from the DC to the NLL and ELL for strengthening, being replaced by 6 of the 4 car new trains being mentioned:

3.6 By putting new trains on the Euston – Watford line the existing Class 378 trains on that route can, in five car formation, be cascaded onto the NLL and ELL to provide a larger and homogenous Class 378 5 car fleet to deliver the planned tph increases.

https://tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/fpc-20150617-item16-part-1-lotrain.pdf

 

[argonaut56d]

You are definitely getting 5 cars for a couple of years though, it's explicitly stated in the TfL document I linked to in the '378 extra coach' thread the other day; all 57 current 378s are being extended, and then 6 of them are being cascaded from the DC to the NLL and ELL for strengthening, being replaced by 6 of the 4 car new trains being mentioned:

Yeah I know that, as all the units will be 5 car soon anyway. So we will have to have them on the DC, unless we get some 313's back

But Bombardier will have to sort the power issues out. There have been quite a few reports of the 5 cars not performing well on the DC only ELL.

All the platforms are long enough so that's not a problem. They were long enough for 6 car 313's north of Harrow, so 5 car 378's will fit. Plus we have the new stop boards in place albeit covered up.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yeah I know that, as all the units will be 5 car soon anyway. So we will have to have them on the DC, unless we get some 313's back

But Bombardier will have to sort the power issues out. There have been quite a few reports of the 5 cars not performing well on the DC only ELL.

All the platforms are long enough so that's not a problem. They were long enough for 6 car 313's north of Harrow, so 5 car 378's will fit. Plus we have the new stop boards in place albeit covered up.

Oh and on a slightly different subject, South Hampstead up DC platform will be fully open from Monday! All cracks in walls have been fixed (we hope)!

 

[Chris125]

Will they at least make the new units compatible with the Capitalstars to be able to rescue one another?

I imagine both fleets will have Dellners which should provide sufficient mechanical compatibility in emergency - as the only section of track they are likely to share is Gospel Oak-Willesden this isn't going to be a big issue.

 

[Loki]

Why ?

If you were in charge of LO would you spend your money on a standardised fleet that reduced driver and maintenance staff training and all the associated ongoing costs or would you chop and change around because a few people preferred the look of a Hitachi to a Bombardier or thought there were too many Bombardier 'Stars' around ?

That's only the case if the new trains will be Capitalstars which they probably won't be.

 

[andyb2706]

Oh, for **** sake.... Can we at least try the CAFs and Hitachis? At least please make these trains be Aventras.

No surprise Bombardier has won the contract.

Firstly I think the electrostar production line is being wound down once the additional 378 cars are made isn't it?

It also makes financial sense as they can just tag it on to the current Aventra production line so no need to go through a costly tendering process and the units will be in service a lot earlier than having a tender going out.

As to CAF's and Hitachis don't forget Northern franchise is due later this year and part of the contract is for new trains......

Actually I was on a day trip on the 378's yesterday and the new LO routes earlier today and was wondering when this announcement was going to be made.

 

[WatcherZero]

I doubt they will be full Aventras, the production line for the Capitalstars is still open as the extra coaches are being produced. I reckon Bombardier will just do what Siemens did with the 380, a hybrid design using Capitalstar bodies with a few more advanced components from the Aventra line thrown in.

 

[Harlan Cage]

Great news I quite like Bombardier's EMU offerings and this order makes sense in have a common fleet for the Overground.

HC

 

[plcd1]

They did look into it at Camden, but the old metal bridges would be too expensive to replace. New bridge cost and traffic management below. Not sure how much the new one at Watford cost, but it took 11 weeks I think to complete? Bit of a traffic nightmare on a not quite as busy road, imagine Camden Road being shut for 2 months plus. Lol!

Unless TFL want to put their hands into their seemingly bottomless pockets? Don't think Network Rail would be keen to weigh with their current debt mounting by the minute....

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Back in November 2008 the then Labour Transport Secretary, Geoff Hoon, announced £54m of extra funding to replace the abandoned bridges at Camden to raise capacity through Camden Road.

https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2008/december/transport-for-london-welcomes-additional-funding

I understand that what subsequently happened was that TfL decided they didn't need the extra capacity and the work was never pursued. It had been done the work would have completed last year. Given where we are now headed with peak frequencies on the NLL you can't help but wonder if that was a shortsighted refusal. 9 months of GOBLIN blockades next year will also pile the pressure on for freight workings over the NLL.

Given TfL are engaged in a massive financial juggling trick having lost over £300m in government grant funding over recent years I can't see them being able to find upwards of £70m (the cost will have gone up) to do the bridge work and there will be a row about freight industry contributory funding as freight would undoubtedly benefit in part from the extra capacity. We will have a Spending Round later this year and TfL will have a fight on their hands to maintain revenue grant funding. Capital grant is fixed through to 2020 which gives some stability. The government seems happy to spend on building infrastructure but then won't provide support for an adequate level of service that exploits said infrastructure. Bizarre. :roll:

 

[Domh245]

I doubt they will be full Aventras, the production line for the Capitalstars is still open as the extra coaches are being produced. I reckon Bombardier will just do what Siemens did with the 380, a hybrid design using Capitalstar bodies with a few more advanced components from the Aventra line thrown in.

I think they'll go for a full blown aventra. The capitalstar body was the first of the individually glazed 'stars', which is the key difference between the standard 'star' body and the 'aventra mk1' body - It will be the aventra mk2 body, in 20m form, 2 sliding plug doors per side - visually very similar to the 378s, but possibly with a front gangway, and the flexx-eco bogies (inboard ones as per the 220/222/172s)

 

[RobShipway]

I think they'll go for a full blown aventra. The capitalstar body was the first of the individually glazed 'stars', which is the key difference between the standard 'star' body and the 'aventra mk1' body - It will be the aventra mk2 body, in 20m form, 2 sliding plug doors per side - visually very similar to the 378s, but possibly with a front gangway, and the flexx-eco bogies (inboard ones as per the 220/222/172s)

One of the others things with going with Bombardier is that the trains would are made in this country as anything from Hitachi, would probably have to be made in Japan to be able to cope with the timescales that are needed for the trains.

 

[WatcherZero]

Indeed after winning the Scotland order I doubt Hitachi had the spare production capacity to produce them, the other shortlisted were plants in Germany (Siemens) and Spain (CAF) though I doubt it makes that much difference to the amount of work share done in this country (other than CAF) as Hitachi, Bombardier and Siemens all have roughly the same percentage (btween 55% and 65% of the work by value) and the Aventra body panels are made in Germany.

 

[Harlan Cage]

One of the others things with going with Bombardier is that the trains would are made in this country as anything from Hitachi, would probably have to be made in Japan to be able to cope with the timescales that are needed for the trains.

As an aside

Another reason not to purchase trains from Japan

http://fukushimaupdate.com

Australia has returned cars to Japan that were contaminated.

HC

 

[47802]

I think they'll go for a full blown aventra. The capitalstar body was the first of the individually glazed 'stars', which is the key difference between the standard 'star' body and the 'aventra mk1' body - It will be the aventra mk2 body, in 20m form, 2 sliding plug doors per side - visually very similar to the 378s, but possibly with a front gangway, and the flexx-eco bogies (inboard ones as per the 220/222/172s)

A poster on WNXX who is usually fairly accurate has suggested that Bombardier offered Electrostars rather than Aventra for this tender which presumably means they will be similar to existing 378's.

But then the poster says that these will be the last ones due to new regs coming in, In that case wouldn't it cause problems for the optional follow on builds?

I'm surprised there is nothing on the Bombardier website about it yet.

 

[Domh245]

Thanks for that. Good ol' Bombardier, sticking to their word of "no more -stars after this"