Notice of Prosecution

[6Gman]

We have an hourly service at the best of times. I have a 25 minute walk to work, which means i only just get in in time if i leave the station immediately. When the train is late, I am late.
The earlier train would get me in one hour earlier - before my office actually opens.

It would be helpful to know at what time you were travelling since the service is somewhat irregular in the mornings.

In response to other posters trains between Whitchurch and Crewe are either 175s (usually 3x but sometimes 2x) or 153s.

Usually.

If it was the 153 stopper the Conductor would almost certainly have come through after Whitchurch since (I think) Wrenbury is a request stop.

 

[Llanigraham]

In general I have no reason to respond to many of the comments in this feed, as I was not looking for sympathy or your understanding, just some advice - you have the facts needed to answer my questions.

However you got on my nerves against my better judgement. I'd like to know more about the dubious means of leaving the station, please tell us more! I walked out the front door past the massive queue at the ticket office as previously stated. There were no men taking payment or blocks in the foyer.

I work 3 days a week, sometimes I bike it, I don't keep wads of tickets, why would you?

Which is where you made the biggest and potentially most expensive mistake!
You wouldn't walk out of a supermarket with unpaid for goods because there was a queue; the railway is exactly the same!

 

[6Gman]

In general I have no reason to respond to many of the comments in this feed, as I was not looking for sympathy or your understanding, just some advice - you have the facts needed to answer my questions.

However you got on my nerves against my better judgement. I'd like to know more about the dubious means of leaving the station, please tell us more! I walked out the front door past the massive queue at the ticket office as previously stated. There were no men taking payment or blocks in the foyer.
I work 3 days a week, sometimes I bike it, I don't keep wads of tickets, why would you?

1. There are alternative ways of leaving Crewe station which might allow someone to evade any revenue block. For obvious reasons I will not go into any more detail!

2. It is by no means clear where you were stopped. Revenue blocks usually take place between the platform and the booking office, but you seem to imply that you had left the booking office when you were stopped. This would be unusual and - in practical terms - quite difficult.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Which is where you made the biggest and potentially most expensive mistake!
You wouldn't walk out of a supermarket with unpaid for goods because there was a queue; the railway is exactly the same!

The difference is that if you have to queue up for the goods in a supermarket, the goods won't disappear at a specified time regardless of the length of the queue.

I do think this needs dealing with. Though something like mobile ticketing and more TVMs is likely to be a better solution than allowing people to board after a specified queue length, as this would be open to all kinds of abuse and confusion.

Edit: Not so relevant to the OP's case, though, as the goods had already been taken (an analogy is going into a supermarket and starting to eat a product before paying for it, which is not uncommon) and thus he had to queue to pay for it. Unusual to have a revenue block of that type, though - I have certainly never seen it.

 

[najaB]

I walked out the front door past the massive queue at the ticket office as previously stated. There were no men taking payment or blocks in the foyer.

Interesting - there wasn't a revenue block on, and you got randomly checked out of all the people going into and out of Crewe on a weekday morning? That makes my spider sense tingle...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interesting - there wasn't a revenue block on, and you got randomly checked out of all the people going into and out of Crewe on a weekday morning? That makes my spider sense tingle...

I have never heard of a revenue block *outside* the main entrance of a station to catch people alighting from "paytrains" who haven't bought a ticket on board. I'm not sure how such a thing would work, given that people have entirely legitimate reasons to go in and out of what is an open station and not a compulsory ticket area without a ticket, such as to purchase from the businesses on the station, or even just to go and trainspot.

It does indeed sound like there may be more to the story; if you were going to do a revenue block at Crewe there is a very obvious place for it, and that's basically where the barriers will go.

 

[DaleCooper]

I've just reread the OPs posts and can't actually find any mention of where or by whom they were stopped, or am I just blind?

 

[najaB]

I've just reread the OPs posts and can't actually find any mention of where or by whom they were stopped, or am I just blind?

No, they haven't shared either piece of information. However, they have said that there wasn't a revenue block on, and there were no people with ticket machines. The way I read their posts it appears that they were stopped after passing the ticket office. To me this points towards the OP being specifically targeted for some reason.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, they haven't shared either piece of information. However, they have said that there wasn't a revenue block on, and there were no people with ticket machines. The way I read their posts it appears that they were stopped after passing the ticket office. To me this points towards the OP being specifically targeted for some reason.

Yes, it does sound like the kind of thing that may occur if, for instance (and I'm not in any way alleging that the OP did this, it's just an example), someone hid in the toilet on board to avoid paying when the guard came through.

 

[DaleCooper]

No, they haven't shared either piece of information. However, they have said that there wasn't a revenue block on, and there were no people with ticket machines. The way I read their posts it appears that they were stopped after passing the ticket office. To me this points towards the OP being specifically targeted for some reason.

I suspected that's what your spider sense was telling you. I wonder why the OP should be targeted, or perhaps they tried leaving by some devious means and were spotted.

 

[bubblelife]

I suspected that's what your spider sense was telling you. I wonder why the OP should be targeted, or perhaps they tried leaving by some devious means and were spotted.

I do believe i have mentioned several times that i walked out the front door.
I'd really love to know how it is possible to walk out of a station by devious means.
Let us examine Crewe, speaking as a regular-ish passenger there is the front door that has always been there and the perfectly legitimate side entrance leading to the car park - newly opened.
I offer you this little tidbit to slag me off more - if the train alights at platform 5 i go out the side entrance to the car park as it keeps me dry longer - I always enter this way now as it saves me a walk round the corner. If the train alights at platform 6 i go out the front entrance.
Gasp in horror, sometimes if want to go to Tescos i will exit out of the main entrance even if the train stops at Platform 5.
On a usual morning I get a 7am train. On the occasion i was stopped it was -'AGAIN' outside of the train station front entrance where all the smelly smokers stand - i had taken the 8am train, not my usual commute. So, I don't like the cut of your jib either.

And yes Neil Williams, there are indeed legitimate reasons for going into a station other than travel, so why didn't I lie to the Virgin lady that stopped me and just say to her, oh I just dropped in for x, y and z, - as my husband helpfully suggested when I got home????
Perhaps because i was too busy being devious trying to leave by the front door after disguising myself as a toilet for the entire journey.

As it is i have now cancelled my virgintrains online account and will be sure never to purchase a ticket from them again. Just as well the tickets I need to pick up for mid term teaching were booked through cross country. OMG did i just admit to buying tickets in advance?!? Shocker.

 

[yorkie]

How many people leave there bank cards at work rather than on their person or at home..

I sometimes do (along with lots of other stuff). If you have your own office (or other secure area), and you won't need it in the evening, but know you'll need it the next day... why not? I'll also keep tickets at work if I've collected them in advance and I'm going straight out from work one day.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I sometimes do (along with lots of other stuff). If you have your own office (or other secure area), and you won't need it in the evening, but know you'll need it the next day... why not? I'll also keep tickets at work if I've collected them in advance and I'm going straight out from work one day.

Quite a lot of people don't take plastic on an evening out to ensure (a) they have a solution if their wallet gets nicked, or (b) they don't overspend, just taking the amount of cash they intend on drinking, as it were.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
To the OP - where exactly were you stopped, was a general ticket check going on, and why did they say they stopped you?

There is always a chance you were mistaken for someone else.

 

[DaleCooper]

I do believe i have mentioned several times that i walked out the front door.
I'd really love to know how it is possible to walk out of a station by devious means.
Let us examine Crewe, speaking as a regular-ish passenger there is the front door that has always been there and the perfectly legitimate side entrance leading to the car park - newly opened.
I offer you this little tidbit to slag me off more - if the train alights at platform 5 i go out the side entrance to the car park as it keeps me dry longer - I always enter this way now as it saves me a walk round the corner. If the train alights at platform 6 i go out the front entrance.
Gasp in horror, sometimes if want to go to Tescos i will exit out of the main entrance even if the train stops at Platform 5.
On a usual morning I get a 7am train. On the occasion i was stopped it was -'AGAIN' outside of the train station front entrance where all the smelly smokers stand - i had taken the 8am train, not my usual commute. So, I don't like the cut of your jib either.

And yes Neil Williams, there are indeed legitimate reasons for going into a station other than travel, so why didn't I lie to the Virgin lady that stopped me and just say to her, oh I just dropped in for x, y and z, - as my husband helpfully suggested when I got home????
Perhaps because i was too busy being devious trying to leave by the front door after disguising myself as a toilet for the entire journey.

As it is i have now cancelled my virgintrains online account and will be sure never to purchase a ticket from them again. Just as well the tickets I need to pick up for mid term teaching were booked through cross country. OMG did i just admit to buying tickets in advance?!? Shocker.

The reason for speculation is that there are still gaps in your narrative, people are struggling to understand the circumstances under which you were stopped. Was there a block? Were you chosen at random? Or What?

Another point , why cancel your Virgintrains account, how were they to blame? Did they hide your card, did they tell the conductor to avoid you, did they create the queue at Crewe? Do you think Cross Country would have treated you differently?

Yet another thing, to have followed your husband's advice could have dropped you much deeper in it.

 

[6Gman]

I do believe i have mentioned several times that i walked out the front door.
I'd really love to know how it is possible to walk out of a station by devious means.
Let us examine Crewe, speaking as a regular-ish passenger there is the front door that has always been there and the perfectly legitimate side entrance leading to the car park - newly opened.
On the occasion i was stopped it was -'AGAIN' outside of the train station front entrance where all the smelly smokers stand - i had taken the 8am train, not my usual commute.

Thank you for clarifying exactly what happened. To be challenged at that point is extremely unusual, not least since by that point - having left by the famous "front door" you could:

a) turn left - which is what you did;
b) turn right toward Weston Road;
c) board a taxi;
d) go to the bus stops;
e) cross the road!

It seems a very, very odd place for someone to be challenged.

But this alters nothing. You walked past an open booking office having travelled without a ticket. End of ...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I do believe i have mentioned several times that i walked out the front door.
I'd really love to know how it is possible to walk out of a station by devious means.

There are other exits.

 

[Fare-Cop]

It seems a very, very odd place for someone to be challenged.

Not to well-trained inspectors it doesn't.

In BR days it was not uncommon for inspectors in plain clothes to conduct many exercises of this nature, often in company with plain clothed BTP officers who would only reveal their identity if the traveller became aggressive, or attempted to leave without having given their correct details, or a satisfactory explanation.

Frequently these exercises were targeted to spot particular individuals as a result of intelligence passed from station or booking office staff, or targeting travellers using specific trains where high levels of ticketless travel may have been identified.

Perhaps Virgin might be taking such things seriously again.

Having left the railway without having paid when facilities were available to do so makes it much easier to prove intent not to pay.

Bremme (1964) made it perfectly clear that the fare for the journey being made is due at the latest on arrival at the traveller's destination and only if facilities to pay have not been available earlier. If facilities were available before travelling Byelaw 18.1 (2005) makes a strict liability requirement that the intending traveller uses them.

The story that 'I intended to pay on the way back' never negates that fact.

 

[bubblelife]

Bremme (1964) made it perfectly clear that the fare for the journey being made is due at the latest on arrival at the traveller's destination and only if facilities to pay have not been available earlier. If facilities were available before travelling Byelaw 18.1 (2005) makes a strict liability requirement that the intending traveller uses them.

.

I understand about the Byelaw, but I am confused to the wording on the summons letter I have. It says I am summoned to answer the following information (roughly paraphrased)
"I was on the railway, having travelled on the railway between Whitchurch and Crewe and failed to obtain a ticket or pay the fare due before travelling on a train."

I would understand if I was being summoned for not having a ticket full stop, but it seems weird having the "before travelling on a train" text? Is it just me?
Can this issue really be enforced if the station only has a ticketing machine that takes card payment, and which is usually out of order?

 

[Fare-Cop]

I understand about the Byelaw, but I am confused to the wording on the summons letter I have. It says I am summoned to answer the following information (roughly paraphrased)
"I was on the railway, having travelled on the railway between Whitchurch and Crewe and failed to obtain a ticket or pay the fare due before travelling on a train."

I would understand if I was being summoned for not having a ticket full stop, but it seems weird having the "before travelling on a train" text? Is it just me?
Can this issue really be enforced if the station only has a ticketing machine that takes card payment, and which is usually out of order?

The Bremme judgment relates to 'intent to avoid a fare', not the Byelaw requirement

By the evidence of your post, you were leaving, or had left the station when you were spoken to and therefore I would be surprised if you have been charged with breach of Byelaw.

Please type the exact wording of the charge or charges on the summons rather than a paraphrase and perhaps we can give more accurate and therefore more relevant responses.

I suggest that you leave out only your name and the date of travel.

 

[bubblelife]

It says exactly:

"That you on 'date', were on the railway, having travelled on the railway between Whitchurch and Crewe, and failed to obtain a ticket or pay the fare due before travelling on a train.

Contrary to Byelaw 18.1 of the Railway Byelaws made under Section 219 of the Transport Act 200 by the Strategic Rail Authority and confirmed by Section 46 (4) Railways Act 2005 and Schedule 9 of the 2005 Act.

 

[DaleCooper]

First point - they have given me a statement of facts that says the charges I face are:
1. Did travel upon the railway and failed to obtain a ticket or pay the fare due before travelling on a train.
2. Did travel, or attempt to travel upon the railway without having previously paid the fare and with intent to avoid payment thereof.

This was your first post, you seem to have omitted the second part in your latest post.

 

[bubblelife]

This was your first post, you seem to have omitted the second part in your latest post.

The second part isn't on the summons sheet, the bit you quoted there was on the statement of facts.
Ah, there are 2 different summons sheets!

The second sheet reads:

That you on 'date', between Whitchurch and Crewe did travel upon a Virgin Railway service without having previously paid the fare of £6.60 and with intent to avoid payment thereof

Contrary to S.5 (3) (a) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 as amended by section 84 (2) of the Transport Act 1962 and section 18 of the British Railways Act 1970.

Well, how does that work? It was an ATW service?????

 

[DaleCooper]

The second part isn't on the summons sheet, the bit you quoted there was on the statement of facts.
Ah, there are 2 different summons sheets!

The second sheet reads:

That you on 'date', between Whitchurch and Crewe did travel upon a Virgin Railway service without having previously paid the fare of £6.60 and with intent to avoid payment thereof

Contrary to S.5 (3) (a) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 as amended by section 84 (2) of the Transport Act 1962 and section 18 of the British Railways Act 1970.

Well, how does that work? It was an ATW service?????

You've only just found it, 5 days later?

 

[bubblelife]

Well it seems to me that if they gave me two separate summons then they should give me two separate sheets for my plea.

I count it as a plus I read any of it at all, what's the deal with taking 3 months to respond to my initial letter, then giving me two weeks notice of a court date.

I was stopped at Crewe in November, the summons at least was dated 26 Jan, but I received none of this paperwork until last week.

 

[Llanigraham]

It would appear that all the documents have been served on you correctly, therefore you have no defence against them there.

It appears that you did not purchase a ticket before you got on the train, or whilst on the train.

It appears that due to a long queue you choose to ignore the last chance to purchase a ticket at Crewe.

It appears that you were then apprehended by an Inspector.

You now appear to be clutching at straws to get out of your mess, despite numerous people explaining why you broke the Law.

Enjoy your day in Court because it looks like it might be expensive!

 

[najaB]

Well, how does that work? It was an ATW service?????

The error in TOC doesn't change the material facts - you travelled between the stations listed on the date shown. You didn't purchase a ticket before you travelled and demonstrated intent to avoid paying the fare by passing both ticket machines and open ticket office and leaving the station.

 

[DaleCooper]

Well it seems to me that if they gave me two separate summons then they should give me two separate sheets for my plea.

I count it as a plus I read any of it at all, what's the deal with taking 3 months to respond to my initial letter, then giving me two weeks notice of a court date.

I was stopped at Crewe in November, the summons at least was dated 26 Jan, but I received none of this paperwork until last week.

It's difficult to have sympathy with that attittude.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The error in TOC doesn't change the material facts - you travelled between the stations listed on the date shown. You didn't purchase a ticket before you travelled and demonstrated intent to avoid paying the fare by passing both ticket machines and open ticket office and leaving the station.

The ticket machines at Crewe are irrelevant as they don't do remote issue, and it's been established that a "wrong direction" ticket is not appropriate. The rest is true.

It might be that the summons is found to be invalid because of a material error (why they didn't just say "a train service" I have no idea) but I would expect if this is found to be the case it will simply be re-issued correctly.

 

[najaB]

The ticket machines at Crewe are irrelevant as they don't do remote issue, and it's been established that a "wrong direction" ticket is not appropriate.

Agreed that the ticket would not be valid, but it removes the 'intent to avoid payment' aspect of the charge and makes it, at worst, a Byelaws prosecution.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agreed that the ticket would not be valid, but it removes the 'intent to avoid payment' aspect of the charge and makes it, at worst, a Byelaws prosecution.

Possibly so, though it is not something I would do as it could well be a waste of money if a particularly picky RPI was not going for it, or if the fares were different in the opposite direction. On arrival the only sensible option would be the ticket office or barrier staff (if any, obviously Crewe is not barriered).

That said, I would expect very few people would bother on arrival at the destination - this is a very unusual and odd case. I remember insisting my parents did once when I was a kid, and we got a very odd look from the ticket clerk.

 

[najaB]

Possibly so, though it is not something I would do as it could well be a waste of money if a particularly picky RPI was not going for it, or if the fares were different in the opposite direction. On arrival the only sensible option would be the ticket office or barrier staff (if any, obviously Crewe is not barriered).

In this case the fares are the same in both directions, and even if the RPI was being picky (and didn't accept the ticket) it would be *very* hard for the TOC to get the argument to stick that the passenger had intented to avoid payment if said customer has paid them the exact amount that was due.